Tentative list of the elemental aspectation of Primals:
What we know for certain:
Ifrit = Fire.
Titan = Earth.
Garuda = Wind.
Leviathan = Water.
Ramuh = Lightning.
Shiva = Ice.
Ravana = Fire and Earth.
Bismarck = Water and Wind.
The following seem unaspected/neutral:
Bahamut (all elements, Astrally aligned?)
Odin
Alexander (looks light-elemented, but that has been stated by Koji to not be an element in XIV: https://gamerescape.com/2017/09/01/l.../#comment-5377)
Thordan
Shinryu (all elements, Astrally aligned?)
Good King Moggle Mog XII (blessed be his fluffiness)
The rest are speculation:
Phoenix seems to be Fire, using some... Light? And did I see some Ice in there too (or maybe it's just Bluefire looking weird? but it does also inflict frostbite)?
Zurvan = Ice and Fire?
Sophia = Wind and Lightning?
Sephirot = Earth and Water/Wind?
Susano = Water and Lightning.
Lakshmi = Fire and Water/Wind???
The point of this thread is to not discuss whether the Warring Triad are elementally aspected Primals. I have seen enough debate on the subject to think that we are unlikely to reach a conclusion without official confirmation. I personally think they are, but there is not enough information to say one way or the other. So please don’t even go there.
I have also seen quite a bit of debate on what Sephirot’s second element would be if the Triad indeed are dual-aspected Primals. The general consensus seems to limit it to Water (backed by Ein Sof bubbles and Ratzon AoEs seeming fluid, the apparent filling of the arena with a liquid during his ultimate, water and soil being the foundations of plant life, and it rounding out the elements of the Triad) and Wind (mostly because of Malkuth, the sneeze attack, and the Storm of Words add it makes). Earth is pretty much a given. Now, this point can still be debated here, but since the elemental aspectation is still being doubted by some players to even apply to the Triad, please don’t go overboard with it.
The one I’d really like to bring to attention here is Lakshmi. She seems to be throwing around blue fire quite a lot, but I have no idea what her second element would be. Any input would be nice here.
As we get more primals in the future, I’ll be adding them to the list, and if we get confirmations on any of this (which I REALLY hope we do) I’ll update this original post.
Unclear Primal Elements
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09-09-2017, 08:46 AMAoshaUnclear Primal Elements
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09-09-2017, 09:23 AMRawrzHW and up primals have a lightly added third aspect. Example, Ice in ravana. Blue butterflys cast blizzard. This is due to the ice aspected crystals in the hive to regulate temperature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aosha
The others, like Bahamut are probaby astral/Umbral.
Bahamut: Astral Fire
Odin: Umbral
Moogle mog: Astral
Etc -
09-09-2017, 09:25 AMKalinOrthos
Primals don't necessarily need to adhere to certain elements. That they are is merely coincidence, or is just the fact that they have traditionally been element. They might be able to use some aspects of some elements, but I don't really think they have to adhere to strictly to the rule of "They have to have an element."
A few corrections:
Alexander and Thordan probably have an affinity to Holy: Alexander because of course he does, and Thordan because a lot of his attacks all have to do with light or are rife with holy symbols.
Shinryu appears to be all of the elements. Sort of an amalgation of the powers of all the previous primals. It's unclear.
Lakshmi, Bahamut, Sophia, and Good King Moggle Mog, praise be unto his magnificent pom-pom, are all non-elemental, if only because they embody or exist as some sort of vessel of a certain thing. Sophia is Balance (though uses Thunder magic), Bahamut is Power (as well as being a god of dragons), Lakshmi is Bliss and a sort of Nirvana, and Mog is the embodiment of all things glorious, much like his soft, perfect fun, praise be unto him. Heck, even Ravana is less fire and more battle and destruction. -
09-09-2017, 12:08 PMFoestrikerThere's a difference between what a primal's element and what their theme is and you can have both. Sophia's theme is balance, but her elements are Thunder and Wind.Quote:
Originally Posted by KalinOrthos
Now, if you're saying that Sophia (or really, most primals not named Lord/Lady of <element>) doesn't necessarily need to be Thunder/Wind you'd probably be correct, but we're probably not going to see a retread of an old primal with a new element any time soon. -
09-09-2017, 12:30 PMkoichi88
Thordan primarily makes use of ice and lightning based attacks, with a splash of fire that mostly comes from his knights/ meteor circles.
Alexander is usually a holy elemental summon and he uses that alongside his time theme/element in FFXIV.
As for Shinryu he replicates moves from each of the classic six primals at some point or another. I'd peg him as generally astral/ multiaspected to each element. Fitting for his rainbow scales. -
09-09-2017, 01:39 PMDaraliiSmall correction, I think it was explicitly stated in the lorebook that Bahamut was all elements astrally aspected. That presumably means Shinryu would be the same, though maybe umbrally aspected.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawrz
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09-09-2017, 07:33 PMAoshaI'm inclined to agree on the notion of Shinryu having all 6 elements (which I list as "neutral"), but I'd say he is also astral. Astral and Umbral refer to an element being "active" (quickly effective, explosive) or "passive" (slow, lingering effect), and it's hard to be more active than Shinryu.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daralii
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09-11-2017, 07:21 PMRemedi
Lakshmi seems odd to me, she has a fire attack and a wind attack but everything else seems light or dark
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09-12-2017, 06:19 PMEloah
In the recent interview Koji Fox said Light and Dark are not elements just aspects, so you could, theoretically, have 4 different Primals all with a lightning element but one is Astral Light, another Astral Dark, then Umbral Light, and finally Umbral Dark. I am basing this on what he said though honestly it didn't really seem to answer what Astral, Umbral, Light, and Dark are just that they are not Elements. But as far as the Primals we've seen thus far are the original 6 all had a single Element
Ifrit: Fire
Titan: Earth
Garuda: Wind
Leviathan: Water
Ramuh: Lightning
Shiva: Ice
and Phoenix : Fire (I swear everyone forget him, lol)
The Warring Triad Each have 2
Sephirot: Earth and Water (his attacks and such while not a direct call besides Earth Shaker and Storm of Words, all draw inspiration from Kabbalah, connecting to the Word Tree and Knowledge. Trees are a part of nature which is either the primary or secondary aspect of the element of Earth and Water is usually a representative form of Knowledge, think pitchers and the Ewer card. It is also worth noting his original element from VI was actually Blizzard making him the only Triad member not to keep his original element)
Sophia: Lightning and Wind (While these reasons may be unintentional, they still fit her aspect. Sophia's original element from VI was Lightning and that stayed. Thematically Wind is the exact same as Lightning just not ionized, Lightning and Wind are sometimes combined as one element in some elemental depictions. Also Sophia theme is balance and in order to create Lightning and Wind a certain balance of atmospheric pressure is required.)
Zurvan: Fire and Ice (Zurvan's original element from VI was Fire, and he appears to have gained Sephirot's Blizzard aspect. Zurvan's title in Japanese is Kishin, and a Kishin isn't a good or evil god per se but more like a forceful or fierce god who loves battle and often causes destruction; basically gods that govern aspects that we don't view as beneficial but are a part of the world, like a god of death (Thal) or god of war (Halone). His aspects of fire and ice reflect this somewhat. Not only are they opposites, but the main perception for both is the opposite, Fire is inherently bad and Ice inherently good; but each is just as beneficial or as deadly as the other if generally perceived.{The other 4 elements are a bit of a mixed bag. While they could just as easily be good or bad we generally approach them with both aspects in mind from the start. But as animals, our base instinct is fire is dangerous and Ice isn't, but we as humans with our higher intellect are able to see the benefits and dangers each possesses})
and the initial HW Primals have 3
Ravana: Earth, Fire, & Ice (For what reason these elements were chosen for Ravana is unknown. Possible reasoning could be that: his beast tribe is bug inspired and bugs usually live within the earth, this depiction is very war-like and more war-like "gods" are often depicted having an association with fire, ie Ares. Finally, in mythology Ravana is a devotee of Shiva. Since in the FF universe Shiva is an ice elemental, him having a minor aspect to it might hint at that. This also makes that initial fight kinda funny, lol)
Bismarck: Water, Wind, & Lightning (Bismarck's reasoning for the elements he has seem simpler, they are all aspects of weather, which Bismarck in XIV is said to control. Also there are the facts that; Water is because he is a whale as well as his name being based on a ship [based on a German man]. Wind because he is now a "Sky"-Whale, and Lightning, since it the most common depiction of weather after rain.)
Those are the ones that can be considered definitive. The remained are a little bit more up for interpretation. While it may be hard to find definitive elements for these Primals, figuring out their aspects might be easier
Odin and Alexander appear to be complete opposites as they were in XI. Its easy to guess that Odin is Dark aspected and Alexander Light aspected. But based on their lore and interpretations, Odin seems to be Astral(active) aligned and Alexander Umbral(passive) aligned
As someone earlier said Bahamut is stated to be Astral aligned, and they said that Shinryu is probably Umbral. This seems to make sense given how each was summoned. And as for the two kings, Mog is probably Astral, based on his lore, and Thordan Umbral, based on how he went about doing things.
As for the Two newest Primals, here is what I think is a good interpritation.
Susano: Water and Lightning, Astral & Dark (His Element of Water makes sense considering his beast tribe is water based. Plus his element of Thunder makes sense given his basis is the god of storms in Japanese. The Astral aspect is probably referenced in his actor personality as well as his summoning. Koji Fox said that his summoning is exactly the same as the other primals, and while it might not seem so the Kojin, "actively" worship the treasures used to summon him. His Dark aspect I'm basing mostly on his color pallet but Dark is not always evil.
Lakshmi: Earth and Fire, Umbral & Light (Lakshmi's elements might be more of a stretch since she has no attacks indicating as such, but I'm basing it on both her beast tribe and inspiration. She and the Ananta are snakes a terrestrial creature, they also primarily deal in gemcraft. Gems come from the earth, and fire is use to mold and shape the final product. Lakshmi is also based on the Hindu Goddess of Wealth, Fortune, and Prosperity. Earth and Fire are the prime elements to depict such things; Earth, land and money, and Fire, Passion and Drive. The Umbral aspect is mostly because of her summoning, she wasn't summoned conciously, and because of her overall attitude, "Ignorance is Bliss". The Light aspect is mostly because of her color pallet too, but Light is not always good.
Those are my interpretations anyway -
09-13-2017, 05:51 AMAoshaMy mention of the astral and umbral poles being active and passive comes from the lore book: "In addition to the six elements, there also exist two poles - astral and umbral - which greatly influence the nature of the elements - an astral charge bringing more activity, while and umbral charge resulting in more passiveness. For example, when in an astral state, fire exhibits high volatility, whereas its umbral state is characterized by dryness." (page 9 I think, I've still yet to get the lore book myself {darn you delivery prices}, so I've only seen a picture of said page)Quote:
Originally Posted by Eloah
As for Ravana and Bismarck, they are heavily implied to be dual-elemented by the tooltips of the items used to unlock their extreme modes. Bismarck's (Weeping Eye of the Manukmanai) saying it is "heavily aspected to both water and wind", and Ravana's (Burning Eye of Ravana) states it is "heavily aspected to both earth and fire". Now, this is of course no concrete proof that they are indeed specifically just these two elements, but I don't see why they would put these notes in otherwise.
Other than that, that's a really nice reply! I'll need to go back and look at the Phoenix fight again... -
09-13-2017, 06:38 AMOkamimaru
Without knowing what type aether was used for the summons its hard to say what aspect some of them are... I'd say all summons are astral though as summoning a diety is about as active as you can get with aether... the arr summons are pretty easy to align to elements but hw and beyond gets a bit tricky... which makes me wonder if the type of aether available influenced the beast tribes depictions of the primals or if they actively sought out those sources to feed their gods particular elemental need....
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09-13-2017, 11:24 PMLineageRazorAs nice as it would be to neatly divide up all six elements among the Warring Triad, Sephirot's battle simply does not support the idea of his possessing any Water element attack. None of his attacks are even remotely watery, and are color-coded brown and green - the colors which, elsewhere in the game, correspond to Earth and Wind. One of his attacks, Storm of Words, has an explicitly windy look to it - and while storms often do have a water element to them, nothing is watery about Storm of Words.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eloah
No, sadly, we have to accept that the Water element is NOT represented among the Warring Triad - and Wind is represented twice. This may make the OCD among us cringe, but it is what it is.
I would similarly argue that there is absolutely nothing "Ice" about Ravana (well, the butterflies cast blizzard, but that's still a stretch). Seriously, there's no need to shoehorn elements into these primals that they clearly don't have, just to achieve some kind of symmetry! -
09-14-2017, 01:20 AMEloahWait... What!?Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
No one is debating anything, nor are they shoehorning elements to make a neat little package. We are just stating our opinions about what elements we feel each of the non-original six are. Some reasonings are a bit of a stretch, but all have credence.
In regards to Sephirot, as that was the one you quoted, other people have stated why he appears to be Earth and Water. Earth because he is a tree, but Water because again tree (plant), his arena, and how one attack has a watery animation. I didn't mention any of these, I mentioned his inspiration and connection to Kabbalah and the world tree and knowledge, and how water usually represents knowledge. The attacks I mentioned were only to point out, that besides those two attacks, nothing points to an element. Also you claim to him being a wind elemental is more baseless than those of us claiming he is water, I'm sorry to say. WHM Cure and healing spells are said to be their Water spells, but a majority of the animations appear Wind based, similar to Storm of Words.
Now while it may be true that the Water element isn't represented, though there is evidence against this. There is no proof that the Wind element IS represented twice either.
And in regards to Ravana, and by proxy Bismarck, the added elements are because of the visuals displayed both before and during their battles. There are ice crystals present during his summoning, and as usually stated the blue butterflies. And for Bismarck, though no crystals are seen, to my knowledge, his big attack is lightning based. -
09-14-2017, 04:33 AMSaiah
With the unique particle effect the moogle weapons have, id almost consider Moogle to be its own element.
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09-14-2017, 04:26 PMBubblyBoar
Not a huge lore researcher at all, but Sephirot being Earth and Water just makes sense. He's a tree man centered around the concept of growth. Trees need Eartha dn Water to grow. Kind of just makes sense....
Also, I think that Astral and Umbral are less....elements, and more affinities. Like, Fire isn't just fire, but Fire element on a scale of Astral to Umbral. Something can be more umbral fire or astral fire. Sure, a primal can use all elements with an umbral affinity, but that's not Umbral element if you know what I mean. -
09-14-2017, 08:30 PMKeeverYes, this is explicitly the case and Koji even made extra clear to clarify it double-hard at the recent PAX events. Astral or umbral polarity is a quality of elemental aether. Something can't be just "umbral", it has to be "umbral ice" or "umbral ice-and-wind-combined" or "umbral all-six-elements-equally-balanced".Quote:
Originally Posted by BubblyBoar
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09-15-2017, 07:40 AMAoshaEin Sof look like water bubbles. Ratzon AoEs have a distinct "splashing" animation. That's two, and the arena is surrounded with water.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
The wind attack (his only one as far as I know), on the other hand, has jokingly been referred to as him sneezing on the party and then giving that sneeze life, forming the Storm of Words add. But it's also possible that that is actually what is happening.
But then again, you might just as well be correct about him being Earth-Wind. We don't know for sure, unless we get official confirmation. *shrug* And that's the point of this thread, discussion, not saying "this is definitely how it is" with no word-of-god backing.