Ideas for a Caster Tank

So all current tanks are melee which limits the play style somewhat. They are all too similar. I'm imagining something radically different.

Share your ideas what one may look and play like. Here's mine.

Weapon: Baton on each hand, one long and one short. Used to cast defensive and offensive magic.

Play style:

• Low armor and natural defense. Leather/cloth-based designs.
• Relies solely on self-buffs for constant mitigation, e.g. an always-on mitigation stance.
• Dancing between magic and physical stances.
• Attacks like BLM but mostly melee-range.
• AoE debuffs on enemies, e.g. slow/bind/blind/vulnerability up.
• Less on reducing received damage, more on weakening enemy attacks.

What do you think? What should this tank be called?

Could be Blue Mage

I've been recently thinking a time battlemage might be a good idea for a caster tank, or a tank in general, using time manipulation to reduce damage, self heal and buff it self e.g haste. But beyond that I'm not sure what to do with it.

Time manipulation sounds interesting. So it's like going back to an earlier state of damage-has-not-been-done. But a misstep may cause you to go back to the exact moment of the previous tank buster.

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Originally Posted by Opus

Time manipulation sounds interesting. So it's like going back to an earlier state of damage-has-not-been-done. But a misstep may cause you to go back to the exact moment of the previous tank buster.

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Yeah that would be one possible direction they could go with it, or things like using slow to the damage into a dot, or stop being the invulnerable where u would take no damage but couldn't move/attack.
The biggest problem tho, is this would be very difficult to tune.

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Originally Posted by Opus

Used to cast defensive and offensive magic.

Play style:

• Relies solely on self-buffs for constant mitigation, e.g. an always-on mitigation stance.
• Dancing between magic and physical stances.
• Attacks like BLM but mostly melee-range.
• AoE debuffs on enemies, e.g. slow/bind/blind/vulnerability up.
• Less on reducing received damage, more on weakening enemy attacks.

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Those things sound like what DRK should be doing in terms of both offense and defense but is basically a re-skinned WAR in 4.0 now... I really hate those nerfs...

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Originally Posted by Opus

Play style:

Low armor and natural defense. Leather/cloth-based designs.
Relies solely on self-buffs for constant mitigation, e.g. an always-on mitigation stance.
Dancing between magic and physical stances.
Attacks like BLM but mostly melee-range.
AoE debuffs on enemies, e.g. slow/bind/blind/vulnerability up.
Less on reducing received damage, more on weakening enemy attacks.



What do you think? What should this tank be called?

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Play style:

Low armor and natural defense. Leather/cloth-based designs. Already a non tank role , Red Mage or possible Blue
Relies solely on self-buffs for constant mitigation, e.g. an always-on mitigation stance. No CD's hmmm Possible Blue some Ninja in there
Dancing between magic and physical stances. So a Dancing Red mage ( they do jump around ) or a Ninja ( DRK without heavy gear )
Attacks like BLM but mostly melee-range. Hmmm sounds like a Red Mage
AoE debuffs on enemies, e.g. slow/bind/blind/vulnerability up. Wow so close to a Red mage or Ninja
Less on reducing received damage, more on weakening enemy attacks. So same thing either way

So make a Red Mage / Ninja tank roles -.-

Magic damage based tank that still fights close quarters?

A spiritualist using a battlestaff?

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Originally Posted by Opus

Low armor and natural defense. Leather/cloth-based designs.

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This would need a modifier. Either keeping a buff active that increases your mitigation or debuffs on the enemy that make them deal less damage to you and only you.

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Relies solely on self-buffs for constant mitigation, e.g. an always-on mitigation stance.

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With the outlook people in this game have to stances, I don't think that would be well received. People would probably shit on this tank for having to keep a mitigation stance active becuz teh d33pz.

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Dancing between magic and physical stances.

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I'm guessing you mean it transitions from a physical mode to a magic mode as part of gameplay. Shifting from one to the other over time?

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Attacks like BLM but mostly melee-range.

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This I can dig. The devs already crossed that line by allowing PLD to never get interrupted while casting, so at this point I'll say "why not?".

the one problem with caster tank is blocks/parries will not work while casting. So I suppose if the class doesn't rely on block/parry for mitigation, the concept would work. Also, it locks them out of Anticipation as a cross class skill.

I think it would be cool if SE were to add another job mid-way through the expansion, like they did for NIN. If they did I think it would be cool if it started as a class at level 1, then branched off into two BLU variants at 30: One is a tank, while the other is a healer/controller that's buff/debuff focused.

I know this is super unlikely to actually happen, but it's a class I would certainly enjoy leveling up from 1.

Problems with a caster tank:

- Gear would be a nightmare (no tenacity on left side, do they favor vit or not?)

- Couldn't be ranged (positioning would be a nightmare).

- Caster damage mitigation is already a theme of healing in this game.

- Most abilities would have to be instant cast (no one wants to cast in melee, and doing so would be a huge disadvantage versus other tanks) which generally goes against the idea of a caster.

Your permanent stance isn't a bad idea to make this happen by any means, and a Blue Mage is an obvious choice (think stealing earth armor from Titan in a job quest or some shit like that, but better since I am putting no thought into this), mostly because all of the other mages are in-game (AST is a Time Mage, White Mage obv, Geomancer is WHM, Black Mage obv, Red Mage obv. Mystic Knight is basically an RDM).

That said, I think it faces slightly more obstacles than not, given itemization in this game.

I could totally see a Blue Mage being viable as a tank. Basically make its kit similar to a Red Mage's, only opposite with a heavier focus on melee combos and some spells/utility to make it worthwhile in a raid. It'd be nice to get some gear too a little more suited to Blue Mage's style if only for the sake of versatility in tank gear :D

I think it'd be pretty awesome to have Blue's skills come from primals too, at least quest related ones (if that's even a thing at that point!) Could totally see a literal Stoneskin from Titan, maybe an aoe similar to Salted Earth but it inflicts burns for its duration (Ifrit), or like a line aoe, similar to Monk's Howling Fist for some group damage (maybe a surge of water ala Leviathan). Give some relevance to old Primals again :D

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Originally Posted by SerasIV

SNIP

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This would be cool! Also could have (Hard) mode primals be job quest requirements.

This wouldn't work for multiple reasons.

1) tanks share gear so your leather cloth armor with low defense idea wouldn't be possible

2) being a tank implies you'll be getting hit near constantly. taking damage interrupts casts. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

Personally I think dork knight was as close to a caster tank as were going to get. It would be interesting to see how a magitek knight plays out though if SE wanted to make an original tank class. Using magic, ceruleum, and body machinery (weapon and offhand) to tank maybe... IDK.

http://Tinyurl.com/geotank

I'm gonna leave this here again for my hopes that SE makes Geomancer a Tank. They would be the perfect candidate.

I still need to adjust it to 70, but the main premise is still there and still solid.

This might sound like a crazy idea, but it's something I've always wanted in an MMO: a caster that tanks by summoning a bad-ass companion, while the caster stands at the back and uses spells that help the companion do tank stuff. This includes weaker shields/heals that only affect the companion. The caster would also have some damaging spells for them to use sometimes, as well as certain cooldowns that buff the damage of the companion for a while. Plus a skill that transfers all enmity to the companion.

The caster and the companion's HP percentages are linked. So healing one would heal the other, and damage is shared between the two. However, the companion takes less damage when being hit. So a boss might hit you for 15,000 with an auto, you'll both take 7,500 damage. But if the boss hits your companion instead, it'll only do 10,000 and you'll both just lose 5,000 HP each. You'd have a resource-based spell on a low cooldown that makes you immune to damage (but not your pet's damage) for 2-3 seconds, so that you can avoid getting hit by party-wide AoE attacks, since if you and your pet get hit, if basically means you're taking twice the damage.

Upon the death of the companion, the caster survives with 1 HP and all enmity is transfered to them, but they become invulnerable for 5 seconds. The caster has a skill on a 4-5 minute cooldown that let's them instant-cast another companion that immediately regains enmity. This serves as their invulnerability mechanic.

The shields and heals from the caster wouldn't be enough to keep the companion alive. You'd need healers to help out. Whether the caster chooses to heal/shield the companion as well, or use their DPS spells, would be the difference between tank stance and DPS stance. The spells would be the shared -
under one stance, they're target-based damage spells/DoTs. Under another, they become heals/shields that you can only use on your companion and generate enmity for your companion. You'd have a skill with a moderate cooldown that transfers enmity to your companion. As well as cooldowns that become buffs to your companion depending on your stance as well.

Playing this would require a lot of coordination, as you would be having to position your companion appropriately to make sure the boss is facing the right way. You'd also have to make sure you don't get hit by AoE attacks. I don't see it being easy, but I sure as hell would have a blast playing something like this.

I am all in for any new tank with a unique flavor, but didn't the PLD basically become a caster tank in Stormblood, with it's heavy reliance on Holy Spirit?

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

This wouldn't work for multiple reasons.

1) tanks share gear so your leather cloth armor with low defense idea wouldn't be possible

2) being a tank implies you'll be getting hit near constantly. taking damage interrupts casts. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

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1. The gear would be an issue for sure.

2. Don't see why they couldn't give you a trait or tankstance passive that makes you immune to interrupts.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

This wouldn't work for multiple reasons.

1) tanks share gear so your leather cloth armor with low defense idea wouldn't be possible

2) being a tank implies you'll be getting hit near constantly. taking damage interrupts casts. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

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1) While this is agree-able, they could still make gear LOOK-LIKE cloth based. Look at the Fending set in The Sohm Al, which is very cloth-like, but still a fending set. NOTHING on that armor says it looks like it was meant for a tank class.

2) PLD Clemency says otherwise after the update to the ability in casting while being targeted or hit. This was a big complaint back in HW, so it was changed to be non interrupt-able unless stunned. Have used it many times in all dungeons till 70 on PLD so far because of how beautiful this is. So it's highly possible they can make it happen for a tank class. There's no way BLM could be on a class other than DRK, since DRK was a class that both functioned as a melee class and a caster class. While it was a DPS in most other titles, yes, it was still approach-able (this is mostly going off of someones post earlier). They could also make it instant, similar to ninja with their ability to wield ninjutsu to make the aforementioned spell effect. Highly possible and probable.

While most of us have some epic ideas that could really help build the realm to a better game we can hope for, the problem comes back to how much of the original FFXIV 1.0 coding is STILL in this game. The moment they implement something, they need to test and ensure something else doesn't break, as this has been the case in the past, and in past live letters and interviews. Until 1.0 is completely wiped from the game, we won't be seeing any possible BIG implementations or suggestion/feedback in the game as we'd like to. As a 1.0 player past, while some of it was enjoyable-- I want it completely wiped from this game, so we can progress.

1.0 coding is basically the PS3, and we need it gone to better pursue content we want in the game overall.

PLD if I remember right actually gets a trait somewhere between 60-70 that halves their spell costs and also prevents interrupt from damage. This is why they can cast clemency and holy spirit at 70 without getting interrupted when hit.

As for a caster based tank the real issue I see is that they would need a trait that allowed casting while moving unless they plan to eat every AoE to the face. I think a better option would be a tank that dealt magic damage via melee attacks and weapon skills.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

. I think a better option would be a tank that dealt magic damage via melee attacks and weapon skills.

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So play Dark Knight.

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Originally Posted by Elkanah

1) snip.

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1. OP specifically mentioned that this hypothetical tank's gear would have lower defense and magic defense in favor of it lowering damage dealt by enemies. I'm not talking about aesthetics. We can already make our armor look cloth or leather. It's called using a glamour prism.

2. Abilities being instant is specifically not being a caster. Being a caster means you have cast times. This is why bard and and machinist are no longer caster classes. And being interrupted by damage is also one of the core mechanics of a caster. PLD is not a caster class so it got a slight buff to make one of its major utilities more viable.

Looks like the nays are mostly about how the game's current design makes it really hard to have variety in each role. I want to be able to play radically different styles. If you had ever played Ragnarok Online you'd know what I mean. Things like

1) Monk Mage
2) Ultra high ASPD thief builds
3) Pet tanking
4) Ability to cloak/hide

Other than my caster tank idea.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

2. Abilities being instant is specifically not being a caster. Being a caster means you have cast times. This is why bard and and machinist are no longer caster classes. And being interrupted by damage is also one of the core mechanics of a caster. PLD is not a caster class so it got a slight buff to make one of its major utilities more viable.

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PLD is not a caster class, you're correct. But tank wise, both its new skill for holy and clemency are considered MAGIC, not PHYSICAL skills. And a non interruption rate added to this mechanic for tanks could classify it as a caster tank with some skills. Similar to how rdm works. Only difference is you won't need surecast to make it functional, given PLD's ability to use magic skills without needing to be interrupted.

While I do understand that tanks are not casters, this mechanic can still work in some ways without overhauling the original code. But it would be up to the devs to make that a consideration. Sadly, as we know Squeenix of over 7 years since 1.0, a lot of those ideas had been trashed or thrown away. Honestly, still believe this is due to 1.0's coding in the system.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

So play Dark Knight.

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Majority of DRK's damage is still physical slashing. It has a limited number of MP based abilities that will deal magic damage to supplement it. This just makes it a physical tank with a few extra magic options the other 2 don't have. I'm talking about a tank that deals entirely magic damage with not just instant cast spell like abilities but on its actual weaponskill attacks and auto attacks as well. One of the points noted on the forum is the fact all 3 tanks primarily deal physical slashing damage and a number of players are proposing tank ideas for damage types that synergize with DPS jobs that deal blunt or piercing damage. Granted the only damage synergy I can think of for a fully magic damage based tank would be with BRD using requiem as I cannot immediately recall any party buffs that boost magic damage specifically. Just ones that boost all damage or physical damage.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

I'm talking about a tank that deals entirely magic damage with not just instant cast spell like abilities but on its actual weaponskill attacks and auto attacks as well.

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Please explain how this tank will then tank enemies that are immune to magic damage, or reflect magic damage. That is the single biggest flaw in the notion of a purely magic damage dealing tank.

Tanks should ideally do the same kind of damage as each other because having one that does a primarily different type of damage opens up major balancing issues. You'll end up creating a tank that either no one will want in their parties, or only want in their parties. By keeping them all slashing damage it eliminates a factor they'd have to consider and balance.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

This might sound like a crazy idea, but (snip)

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I love it! One of the best original ideas I've seen on the forum. I was thinking something along those lines but you really went in-depth and answered some questions about how it could work. A caster tank like that is significantly different enough to the melee tanks we have now that it could increase the number of players interested in taking the tank role.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

This might sound like a crazy idea, but it's something I've always wanted in an MMO: a caster that tanks by summoning a bad-ass companion, while the caster stands at the back and uses spells that help the companion do tank stuff. This includes weaker shields/heals that only affect the companion. The caster would also have some damaging spells for them to use sometimes, as well as certain cooldowns that buff the damage of the companion for a while. Plus a skill that transfers all enmity to the companion.

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Tell me, why would you think they'd create a job that requires you to literally be two different places at the same time. They just simplified the jobs in this expansion to make them easier to play, but the idea of a Pet tanking while the master stands somewhere else would be creating one of the most difficult jobs to play, on the least played role. We already have a ton of bad tank players in the game as it is. Please do tell me why you think this is a good idea.

This is also a tank that now takes double damage from all raid wide attacks, and has to worry about not only dealing with enemy positioning and tank dodging, but all the movement involved that ranged and melee DPS and healers have to deal with. The player now needs twice the knowledge of every fight in order to perform their job. They have to know all the tank mechanics, and all the DPS mechanics. Please tell me how an average player could manage dealing with all the mechanics that can happen simultaneously in most of the fights. This is also a tank that can cheese boss mechanics that require damage to be split amongst multiple tanks or players, potentially breaking some fights or drastically changing how they're done, making such a job a potential shoo-in with no other tank job being able to compete.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

Please explain how this tank will then tank enemies that are immune to magic damage, or reflect magic damage. That is the single biggest flaw in the notion of a purely magic damage dealing tank.

Tanks should ideally do the same kind of damage as each other because having one that does a primarily different type of damage opens up major balancing issues. You'll end up creating a tank that either no one will want in their parties, or only want in their parties. By keeping them all slashing damage it eliminates a factor they'd have to consider and balance.

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I don't immediately recall any enemies that are specifically immune to magic outside of a possible temporary buff as this would make all caster DPS useless on the enemy as well. As for reflecting damage there are enemies that use effects to reflect physical damage already so reflecting magic is moot. FFXIV doesn't even appear to really stress elemental resistances either as a BLM can kill a fire elemental with fire as easily as just about anything else in the game.

As for supposed "balancing issues" with a tank primarily dealing a different type of damage than the 3 current options.
WAR, NIN, SAM can all inflict slashing resistance debuffs.
DRG can inflict a piercing resistance debuff.
MNK can inflict a blunt resistance debuff
BRD can inflict a magic resistance debuff

Now granted much like elemental resistances overall damage type resistances aren't extremely prominent either in this game unlike FFXI where there was an easily noticeable difference in base damage with a lance when used on a colibri and a skeleton of the same level.

Damage and element types in FFXIV play no where near as big a role as they did in other FF titles. The most that is going to happen by offering tanks that don't primarily rely on slashing damage is make the theory crafters think harder about how to min/max a party comp to come up with something that will only be used on savage mode and the supposed super savage that is coming.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

I don't immediately recall any enemies that are specifically immune to magic outside of a possible temporary buff as this would make all caster DPS useless on the enemy as well.

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http://www.thesebie.com/wp-content/u...2015/11/16.jpg

Get in a queue with 3 of these "magic" tanks, and congrats, you now have 3 tanks who cannot tank one of the bosses. There's a difference between a fight making caster DPS have to change targets but still able to contribute to the fight, and literally making it so a tank cannot tank an enemy boss it's supposed to.

A magic damage dealing tank would need special exceptions for all of these fights so that it could still do it's damage, bypassing the mechanics. At which point, it's not doing magic damage, it's doing special unique damage that only it can do.

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The most that is going to happen by offering tanks that don't primarily rely on slashing damage is make the theory crafters think harder about how to min/max a party comp to come up with something that will only be used on savage mode and the supposed super savage that is coming.

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Except that's entirely simplifying it. We already have large populations of players shunning tank jobs because they slightly underperform compared to the others, specifically due to those theory-crafters and min/max raiders setting the standard that trickles down into the general playerbase who look towards the best players and judge jobs based on what's being used in savage etc. And that's with all 3 tanks doing the same kind of damage, making them as interchangeable as possible. Throwing one that does a completely different type of damage is throwing an absolutely unnecessary wrench into it. It won't suddenly make different comps more viable to use, it'll more than likely just make a tank that is shunned by the playerbase from the get-go cause it doesn't fit in comfortable with the existing tanks.

And that's not even going into the aspect that the type of damage a job does has zero impact on how the job is played, thus saying something like adding a magic damage dealing tank would bring something new is actually entirely incorrect. You can take a Samurai and make it do magical DPS and it'll still play exactly the same as it does now. You can take a BLM and make it do physical damage and again, it'd still play exactly the same as it does now.

They already have a hard time balancing tanks as it is, so grabbing a concept that inherently is flawed from the very beginning is starting from a very disadvantageous point for no actual real benefit or gain if they managed to figure it out.