Everything wrong with Feast (as in 4.06)

It's very easy to see what the big problems are and why barely anybody is actually enjoying the current state of Feast 4v4 (Ranked), but this somehow has slipped past the development/feedback team. The points I make here are from the experience in over 5000 matches played in total in Feast 4v4 alone. I will only be talking about the Combat System here.

1) The new CC system just does not work.

The main reason is because a DPS can be killed from 100% health in around 3 seconds purely through normal GCD w/ OGCD-spammy damage from both enemy DPS. A DRK can prevent all GCD heals for around 7 seconds every 10 seconds (15 with the resist trait on). A PLD for 5 seconds. The math just doesn't add up here, especially with the horrible amount of lag when a heal/shield is applied to a teammate which amplifies the issue.

There is too much CC happening in too short of a time, creating a hugely frustrating experience for any healer in queue. If not addressed, there won't be any healers left in queue at all.

2) Additional Actions

The above mentioned small casting window every 15 seconds actually makes this CC system much, much worse than the previous one in Heavensward. Yes there are traits such as Purify & Concentrate but these just aren't enough to deal with this issue. Muse is a must-have on every single healer. Sprint is never used by anyone other than Melee and even then, sometimes it's better to just take Safeguard and Recuperate.

These "Additional Actions" are some so limited and some so crucial to each Job that they should actually be available without taking up 1 of 2 Additional Actions. Perhaps move Muse to every single healers hotbar? Perhaps give everyone Sprint back and have Bolt as an "extra" Sprint?

3) Redundant Main Job Actions

There are some Job Actions some Jobs have that just miss the point entirely.

Astrologian has Deorbit instead of an actual healing ability, althrough Deorbit is a really cool skill if you can pull it off properly. 99% of the time, it's incorrectly used and when it is correctly used, it's gonna be Frontlines. Why not have Deorbit as an Additional Skill for all healers and give Astrologian something truly useful in a typical 4v4 Combat Scenario?

Warrior has extra damage instead of a CC. That "extra damage" is largely useless as the healer can not longer be interrupted through it. The CC itself can outright win matches and make the enemy healer useless during crucial moments for your DPS. The extra damage just doesn't make up for the lack of CC.

Red Mage has its whole burst locked behind the GCD. Samurai has a 3k potency Action with a Cast Time of 2s, meanwhile MNK can burst for 7k in 2 seconds or so. Samurai needs attention, the extra mobility and weak Chiten barely makes up for the lack of burst, considering the current 13k+ health pools.

4) The lack of OGCD's.

The reason why this is a problem is simple:
Less Buttons = Each Button has to has to have a Higher Potency.

Why is this a problem? It's because there's no longer any trickle/peel/damage. In Heavensward, there would be 3 main skill brackets of DPS players.

Low Damage/No Mechanical knowledge (Completely new, Bronze/Unranked)
Average Damage/Some Mechanical knowledge (Silver to Diamond)
High Consistent + Burst Damage/Full Mechanical knowledge (Diamond)

Now, there's no "Average" players left. Either players output High Damage, or not enough damage to take advantage of the enemy healer being CC'd by their Tank, which gives the healer too much room to heal. Nothing will die, even in culling 2+. It creates a very strong imbalance of players. There's no longer any "solo" potential as a DPS to make up for one other DPS's shortcomings.

The best way to fix this is to introduce more OGCD's, thus lowering the potencies of each other Job Action itself, while slightly increasing the power level of all Jobs. It gives all Jobs more options for them to deal with each situation more flexibly, instead of Spamming attacks all on the same player and hoping the Tank CC's the healer at the right time.

5) Tanks are not longer "Tanks"

Healers have to heal. DPS have to output damage. Tanks are now kill-enablers with slightly higher defense and some party utility, but no way to defend themselves properly.

Taking 4+ Stacks as a Tank is sure suicide - there's no way to outheal the incoming damage, even with the Tank stance on. At 2 Stacks without a Tank Stance, your healer will lose all their MP just on keeping you alive. This creates a Meta where everyone should take 1 stack, which worsens the above mentioned problems by a good margin.

End Notes

There are a few other issues but these are the main ones. Maybe parts of it don't add up correctly but its a long post I made in around 20m or so, eventually I'll edit any inaccuracies out.

If you disagree, feel free to explain why.

They need to reinstate the old feast, balance the jobs a bit better remove PVE skills and make it only accessible once achieving level 60. Remove PVP rank from attaining the 50 points to put into skill barring any new player trying to join and giving a veteran the advantage. This new system doesn't make new players any better and just kills any sort of depth the game used to have. There are veteran melee players who are telling me they want to carry but don't want to resort to healing, they haven't had to in the past, and don't want to now just because healing is the best way to climb.

They need to also fix that 4v4 is accessible at level 30. This is going to cause a huge influx of alts, it is going to cause a huge influx of new players who have no idea what they're even doing. 8v8 training should be accessible at 30 but COMPETITIVE SHOULD NOT.

Feast 4v4 should've been kept as end-game content for people looking for the thrill of a real challenge. This is NOT a good way to build a new players confidence to PVP in any shape or form by setting the bar so low. Hence why we are seeing people coming on here making ridiculous threads about it being too hard. There were hardly any of these before, but now they're sprouting up everywhere like weeds. I think people forget that it is a competitive mode, there is a consequence to losing unlike the forgiving nature they are used to from playing PVE. "Oh you didn't beat the boss? Here's a 30% echo to help you!"


Square Enix hurry up and fix this mess.

Another issue I'd hope they could address is the horrendous server lag between activating a skill and actually having it work. As an example, if I cast cover or Hallowed Ground, I can see the skill go off, the button greys out on my hotbar, but do I or my teammate get the effect? Nope.

They did it with mudras. Why not other actions too? I'm sure benediction and lustrate could be done this way too.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Another issue I'd hope they could address is the horrendous server lag between activating a skill and actually having it work. As an example, if I cast cover or Hallowed Ground, I can see the skill go off, the button greys out on my hotbar, but do I or my teammate get the effect? Nope.

They did it with mudras. Why not other actions too? I'm sure benediction and lustrate could be done this way too.

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This was always the case even in heavensward PVP, they do this because you should learn to pre-determine that the incoming damage might be too much resulting in a death. This is not lag but simply animation delay. See the hallowed ground delay as shown below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8rOpj3JYqA

Yeah.. I try. And most times it works..it's just that when it doesn't, it's really frustrating.

I'd rather be safe and use it than need it and not be able to get it off in time!

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Yeah.. I try. And most times it works..it's just that when it doesn't, it's really frustrating.

I'd rather be safe and use it than need it and not be able to get it off in time!

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I haven't played many games this season due to my inability to hide my disappointment at something that feels like the husk of a mode I used to play, but a lot of players tend to save their burst for half an HP bar. Spamming cure is necessary when a player is taking a huge amount of damage, however if necessary you can always cut out the animation of cure and immediately benediction if you believe that the player will die or there is a burst incoming. This is purely instinct but after playing several games you were learn to read when a player is closing in for a kill and try your best to combat it.

I'd like to chime in on the Samurai to note that the extra mobility and defense in Soten/ Chiten require you to sacrifice using your burst OGCD's to deal any damage to retreat, not present on other melee and the Cost of Meikyou is so high that you can't practically use it to rebuild kenki without sacrificing your next burst. The combo starters themselves don't generate enough kenki to make the resource worthwhile for everything you have to use.

OPINION only!

From a Scholar perspective, I think the CC system is just right. Resistance duration trait is a must on healers, so it should be every 15 seconds.

Against Paladin: their 3 second stun makes Purify a much better choice, you can get at least 2 seconds off the stun. Silence isn't very effective against scholar because you have Lustrate. The idea is to focus on Broil-Lustrate or Adloquium healing and when silenced use Lustrate.

Against Dark Knight: since their stun is only 2 seconds, Purify might not be as good.

Using Purify before they stun you can also work, but requires a lot of skill. This works, I think, because the tank actually already stunned you on the server, but it has not shown up on your screen yet. So if you know a tank will stun you you can use Purify and have the stun debuff removed almost instantly. Of course this is a huge risk, and if you fail they get a full stun on you, but sometimes you just know it will work and feels amazing when you pull it off.

Tanks that try to CC the healer very often can be countered easily with Concentrate.
When a tank CCs you, they can't CC your team's DPS and so they do full damage.
Keeping notes about enemy tanks is a good way to keep track of their playstyles. You can adjust your additionals based on the player, not the class.

I think a lot of the complaints about CC are too one dimensional. If you're being CC'ed you should expect your tank to also be CCing the enemy. For example, your tank may have stunned the enemy healer just as you were stunned - now the situation is even. If your tank doesn't CC as well, then your enemy tank is just better, and they should win. Some games cannot be won and can be frustrating. Making sure you're focused on playing your best, rather than the unfairness of your team makeup, is in my opinion the most important thing to improve as a player. Complaining about how your team isn't ideal probably means you aren't focusing on what you should have done better that game.

I think making fun jokes about how your tank overstacked, or DPS did no damage, is fine because you probably had no chance to win the game. But you shouldn't do this in games that could have been won if you had played better. Very often when a player says "I couldn't have done anything", it's not true.

For example:
When playing against monks, if you know they can LB, staying close to them is a good idea. Usually monks will use their burst and then immediately LB. This gives you a window to knockback them to stop the combo, delaying their burst-LB combo for a while. But if you're positioned far from the team, you can't do this, and the monk might kill your party member.
Situations like this are also a mistake, and you could have done something about it. You could blame the Paladin or Dark Knight for not protecting your party member, but you had a role in that too.

Staying around the walls to "dodge" melee and caster LB is also another technique that can only be used if you're positioned correctly. If you succeed, you gain a huge advantage for your team because the enemy DPS wasted their LB.

Another common situation is when your melee is positioned so that you can't heal them. You can call this overextending, but it's also your job to be in position so that they can be aggressive. Positioning is an incredibly huge factor in this game. And so despite the fact that there are only "9 buttons" or so in this game, saying that you played perfectly is probably incorrect, so I believe there is no skill ceiling in this game. Maybe in pressing buttons and rotations, but definitely not in decision making.

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Originally Posted by itsoni

It's very easy to see what the big problems are and why barely anybody is actually enjoying the current state of Feast 4v4 (Ranked), but this somehow has slipped past the development/feedback team. The points I make here are from the experience in over 5000 matches played in total in Feast 4v4 alone. I will only be talking about the Combat System here.

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I'd agree with this, the CC feels like a problem, I know I'm on the lower end of the skill level but trying to heal when get chained CC'd is no fun and this is going drive out a lot of people wanting to heal (especially with the whole Nice job spam that seems to be required now).

In trying to blanket "fix" PvP, SE's only set it back even further.

I have to admit, between that and the MCH issues, Stormblood hasn't been all that fun for me so far :/

Anybody else remember when pvp was fun and good?

Currently my main issue with Feast is, for no reason am I getting 90k'ed for 2 days now during my matches. And what's the problem? Everytime I get kicked off the game, I loose all my medals even if it's not my net that causing this issue. And yes, I asked my internet provider if there is any issues with my net.

Because of keeping getting lags and 90k's in my matches, I manage to get a Score Rating loss of over 200 thanks to this issue. And yet I still tried and make that loss into only what, -55 Score compared to last day?

The sad thing? It seems that only I have this issue and I can't progress any further because when I 90k in ranked, it's over.
And yes, this is only in the Feast, nowhere do I have this issue.

I even checked out other people streaming Feast and neither have they issue with connection, so I am right now confused why this all is even happening!

(and I have to deal as well with people now being angry at me and spamming chat macros because of this :P)

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Originally Posted by RisettoMiracle

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I actually 90k'd mid match the other day and have no idea what the cause was. Needless to say that was a loss, and I've had a couple of healers on both my team and opposing teams 90k. Though I have no idea whats causing it, it's not isolated to you I think. It's just only happened to me once.

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Originally Posted by Paragnie

OPINION only!

From a Scholar perspective, I think the CC system is just right.

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I'm glad you said as a SCH. A scholar has lustrates to cope with CC. Instas which are spammable and easily recoverable with broil. WHM just has benediction and well let's not even talk about AST. The point is square enix said they'd reduce the CC, now any braindead paladin or DRK can stay on you spam a few buttons and still hinder you healing greatly. The CC system with a 90 second purify before was a lot better and actually way more thought out. Not only were there ways to combat the incoming CC but as a healer you had CC of your own, blizzard II, sleep, etc.

Pardon my ignorance. What does CC stand for? It has been used as both a noun and a verb and as such the context clues elude me.
Thanks
T

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Originally Posted by Tillen

Pardon my ignorance. What does CC stand for? It has been used as both a noun and a verb and as such the context clues elude me.
Thanks
T

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Crowd control.

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Originally Posted by Yoruno

Crowd control.

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Gotcha thanks!

No problem!

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Originally Posted by Paragnie

From a Scholar perspective, I think the CC system is just right.

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SCH has the easiest time dealing with CC, thanks to Lustrates which are almost always available and a shield on the GCD, not to mention the extra potency you can get using your fairy in case the CC does put you behind a little.

You said the complaints about CC are too one-dimensional, but you're discussing this from a 1 Job standpoint only which in fact, makes your opinion on the CC one-dimensional. It's important to consider the balance and capabilities of all jobs when giving some feedback on this combat system, as I did in the OP. That being said, I'm sure some players will appreciate the tips you left in your post, outside of your "skill ceiling in decision making" comments which can be applied to literally any game on the planet, including Heavensward Feast.

If you use wireless router, try to place it close to PC/PS4. It fixed all lags and disconnects for me.

I think they should just reduce vulnerability effect so it would be easier tank with medals compensate tanks lack of defensive abilities. Like how every stack is 12% now, if every stack would be like 8% each it would be 32% with 4 stacks and would be easier survive with tanks. Right now it is 48% with 4 stacks that is pretty high without many tanking cds.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

I think they should just reduce vulnerability effect so it would be easier tank with medals compensate tanks lack of defensive abilities. Like how every stack is 12% now, if every stack would be like 8% each it would be 32% with 4 stacks and would be easier survive with tanks. Right now it is 48% with 4 stacks that is pretty high without many tanking cds.

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It is ok as it is, if someone messes he has to pay for it

I agree that Deorbit/Rescue should be available to all healers and not only Astro.

The rest sounds more like "I don't like change."

If it means more people are doing The Feast (8v8 and 4v4) now compared to 3.x, I would say the overhaul has been a success which the goal was from the beginning.

More balance changes will come later. There was a lack of data from 4v4 during the pre-season cause people weren't playing enough. But that's understandable with the whole new expansion and stuff.

If you don't like the current balance, don't play and come back later for season 6 (or if they decide to make balance changes mid-season).

not fun. unplayable. uncarryable matches. no defense. no offense. can't even lb properly without a single cc for a melee to use. lb dmg is a joke for both caster and melee. sch is broken compared to other healers. pld no matter how much protect team till reach quillin 10000000000000000000000000 then someone in team die cuz his dps can't do 1 2 3 properly.

Do you understrand the feeling of looking after a sucidal kid and a dieing wife while having another kid with mental issues that keep on screaming whole time ( NICE JOB! )?
Thats what i feel when i tank, its horrible, its not fun.

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Originally Posted by abbas

can't even lb properly without a single cc for a melee to use. lb dmg is a joke for both caster and melee.

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Caster LB is just a joke, its so slow its like hey I'm gonna LB you...this takes ages so please be sure to move yourself out the big red AOE... *nukes the atmosphere*

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Originally Posted by OskarXCI

The rest sounds more like "I don't like change."

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So giving Muse to all healers is "I don't like change"? Pointing out why WAR's extra DPS in place of a CC is "I dont like change"? You didn't address the points I've made, you make 1 cherry pick and then jump to a bone-headed conclusion that probably only sounds that way to you due to an insecurity you've picked up over the years. Or maybe you're a bit insecure about you only getting Silver Rank at the absolute highest in all previous seasons and you don't want things to have any more depth to keep things nice and easy for you?

This post isn't made for players like you to cherry pick - it's made to give Feedback to SE.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

I think they should just reduce vulnerability effect so it would be easier tank with medals compensate tanks lack of defensive abilities. Like how every stack is 12% now, if every stack would be like 8% each it would be 32% with 4 stacks and would be easier survive with tanks. Right now it is 48% with 4 stacks that is pretty high without many tanking cds.

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This is a really good point - right now anything past 3 stacks is pretty much an insta-kill. I would support a change like this.

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Originally Posted by itsoni

This post isn't made for players like you to cherry pick - it's made to give Feedback to SE.

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Whoa, easy there buddy. Wasn't expecting you to take this so serious.

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Originally Posted by itsoni

You didn't address the points I've made, you make 1 cherry pick and then jump to a bone-headed conclusion that probably only sounds that way to you due to an insecurity you've picked up over the years.

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That's funny going by the post you just made. If you wanted a discussion, you certainly failed with that invitation.

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Originally Posted by itsoni

Or maybe you're a bit insecure about you only getting Silver Rank at the absolute highest in all previous seasons and you don't want things to have any more depth to keep things nice and easy for you?

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Well, that's a first. Elitists now stalk you and look up player info in order to "win" an argument. If you can call it that.

Have a nice day.

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Originally Posted by Mirch

It is ok as it is, if someone messes he has to pay for it

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I don't think that was the idea. It's fine if people get punished for overstacking. The problem is that at the moment, damage is so high and defensive cooldowns are so low that 4 stacks as a tank is punishing and actually a pretty sure kill against a decent team. You pretty much cannot spread out medals safely without someone being easy pickings, it's extremely punishing to get a lead because of it.

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Originally Posted by Korihu

I don't think that was the idea. It's fine if people get punished for overstacking. The problem is that at the moment, damage is so high and defensive cooldowns are so low that 4 stacks as a tank is punishing and actually a pretty sure kill against a decent team. You pretty much cannot spread out medals safely without someone being easy pickings, it's extremely punishing to get a lead because of it.

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Not to mention no matter how many times you spam Pick up the medals! People even with 50 medals will not

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Originally Posted by Cynric

Not to mention no matter how many times you spam Pick up the medals! People even with 50 medals will not

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It's a reason why no chat doesn't work in a competitive teamwork based game. We NEED to tell players not to pick up medals as well as telling players to pick up medals, it's frustrating having a tank get 300 medals while the healer has 13.

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Originally Posted by OskarXCI

Well, that's a first. Elitists now stalk you and look up player info in order to "win" an argument. If you can call it that.

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Ah, someone who's been Top 10, Top 100 and received light party awards automatically labelled an elitist because he calls you out on your rubbish. You're telling someone who's way more passionate about PVP than you (clearly mr silver) to just sod off and come back next season? Unlike me, Oni is actually posting constructive feedback and trying to fix the current issues we're facing. He's being a lot more patient than I am.

Where you getting that false sense of confidence from? You poked the fire and you got burnt now deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Yoruno

Ah, someone who's been Top 10, Top 100 and received light party awards automatically labelled an elitist because he calls you out on your rubbish. You're telling someone who's way more passionate about PVP than you (clearly mr silver) to just sod off and come back next season? Unlike me, Oni is actually posting constructive feedback and trying to fix the current issues we're facing. He's being a lot more patient than I am.

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That doesn't excuse bad manners. But congratulation, I guess?

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Originally Posted by Yoruno

You poked the fire and you got burnt now deal with it

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Sure. If it makes you feel better.

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Originally Posted by OskarXCI

Whoa, easy there buddy. Wasn't expecting you to take this so serious.

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Taking what so serious? I'm providing feedback, you haven't. Instead you jumped to "oh you don't like change that'd why you make your suggestions". A pretty childish and silly way to respond to a discussion.

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Originally Posted by OskarXCI

That's funny going by the post you just made. If you wanted a discussion, you certainly failed with that invitation.

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The invitation was in the original post - not in my reply to you. You weren't ready for a discussion, considering your laughable response was "the rest just sounds like you don't like change" and to leave until the next season. The only thing that's failed here is your feedback on this matter, considering the poor responses you've given with your meager experience.

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Originally Posted by OskarXCI

Well, that's a first. Elitists now stalk you and look up player info in order to "win" an argument. If you can call it that.

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Copy and Pasting your name into the Lodestone and making one left-click is stalking? Wow, sounds like I hit a nerve when I said you have some insecurities.

Instead of trying to play the victim, leave some constructive feedback on the current balance changes that need to take place. That's what this thread is here for - not for your little problems so you can feel sorry for yourself.

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Originally Posted by itsoni

Taking what so serious?

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Still going with the whole insecurities thing? Calm down. Let it go.

But I'm done with this.

You keep fighting for balanced Feast. You got spirit.

The Astrologist is doing very well, but really when I face groups of DRK or PLD is source of frustrations especially when your team does not understand that you are in CC and you can not go to the other end of the map to heal.

The biggest problem I have now is that I put the effort into winning (I reach Platinum in season two) my team takes the trouble to do everything wrong. Not to mention that the queues of the DPS are more than 10 minutes making it impossible to classify with these forcing to go from Healer. The situation of the Warrior is to cry, without CC have no chance of doing anything against other tanks, Deorbit is useless.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

The situation of the Warrior is to cry, without CC have no chance of doing anything against other tanks, Deorbit is useless.

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Played DRK S3 got top 100, refuse to play this season, its boring too strong, it was a challange back then even with all the ppl saying DRK sucks play war. As for war well not 1 CC, SE balancing team lack the basics of PVP which is providing 1 hard CC to a tank class, stun or silence. Time after time SE make the same mistakes in PVP and takes far too long for them to correct them, what a bore.

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Originally Posted by kirby200

Played DRK S3 got top 100, refuse to play this season, its boring too strong, it was a challange back then even with all the ppl saying DRK sucks play war. As for war well not 1 CC, SE balancing team lack the basics of PVP which is providing 1 hard CC to a tank class, stun or silence. Time after time SE make the same mistakes in PVP and takes far too long for them to correct them, what a bore.

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DRK by season 3 was not that far behind WAR. It was just in a weird middle ground. It had more CC then WAR, but much less then Pally. The issue with DRK was how WAR and Pally shined it two different cases. WAR's shined when up against bad healers, or a overall lower skill team dps, as they could get solo kills. In higher skill matches (where healers knew how to deal with WAR burst), it was then Pally rained king with all its CC and support. At this higher level always felt like DRK and WAR where pretty much equals in sucking to Pally.

Are you trolling rn Adam?

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Originally Posted by Takatsuki

Are you trolling rn Adam?

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Chill got the buff in season 3 right? Then it was flat damage increase in season 4 correct? Not saying it was better then the other two, but season 3 it was not as far behind as say season 1. If you are talking about the use of Pally and WAR, go back to posts from then (season 1-4), and you will find it the general thinking.