Garuda Story Mode Question

So, I was replaying the MSQ with a friend that just started, ad we just got to this fight. When Garuda tries to temper the WoL, we seem to throw some sort of energy back at her which sends Garuda reeling. It reminded me of the Lakshima shield we raised to protect our allies. My question is was that the WoL or was it Hydalean interfering directly?

Also, I found it interesting that Garuda also says "What Are You?" To the WoL, exactly the same as Thordan does.

Funny, I don't recall us knocking her back when her tempering failed, we just kind of no sold it and she then ranted and raved that it didn't work. I'll check my screenshots of the scene in question to verify this.

EDIT: okay, looking at my screenshots, the 'knockback' we cause is clearly coming specifically from the Blessing - after knocking her back it pulls a Crystal of Light out of her. So it was the Blessing of Light that caused that.

As for what she says, this is the dialogue she says specifically when she tries (and fails) to temper the player:

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Originally Posted by ARR main scenario quest 'Lady of the Vortex'

Garuda: "You, landwalker-you who dared to raise your hand against me-you shall be the first to pay for your sins! Not with your death-but with your LIFE!!"
Garuda: "You will serve me, landwalker... to your last breath!!"
(She then gathers up tempering energy and hurls it at the player's character, the energy dissipates harmlessly)
Garuda (seeing the player is immune to tempering): "No! NO!! I claimed you! You should be MINE!!"
(A light brightens suddenly from the player character's chest, it then bursts forth and hits Garuda, knocking her back and drawing forth a green Crystal of Light from out of Garuda's chest, the Crystal then floating into the player character's hands. After the Crystal appears on the Blessing's mandala, Garuda comes to, weakened and trembling)
Garuda: "What... what are you? What have you done to me!?"
Garuda: "No mortal should possess such power! This... this is impossible!"

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Basically like Thordan much later, it was cognitive dissonance on her part, she was extremely arrogant and simply could not reconcile that she was defeated by a 'mere mortal', let alone discover that everything she had thrown at us had been for nought - not even tempering could lay us low, and she simply could not wrap her head around it.

Yeah, she shoots a bit of like... green energy at us. We respond with a white or silver return. It's hard to describe.

I figured it was some kind of feedback phenomenon from the Blessing of Light. No in-story explanation is given.

In light of the revelations at the end of SB I wouldn't rule out the possibility it was a subconscious backlash using the echo rather than the Blessing of Light. The WoL almost always uses their echo instinctively or passively and barely taps into its potential power.

A lot of the time it's hard to tell what is the echo and what is the blessing. Curiously, in the intro to the Omega raid Midgardsormr seems to refer to the echo as our 'Mistress's gift' since he uses it in reference to us being able to understand Alpha.

It would probably sound silly if I just said it no build-up, so apologies in advance for the rambling.

Hydaelyn's gift has different levels. It's possible to be granted the Echo and have nothing come of it; you wander around lost and confused and never know of your connection to Her. Some who heed Her call are gifted with slivers of Her power to carry out their tasks: a Crystal of Light. In times of unprecedented need, the blessing of Light might manifest through the crystal's power and protect Her chosen, as well.

But the Warrior of Light is a tier above all of these; this is Her champion.

Crystals of Light are drawn to the champion; it's possible for them to interfere with the aetherial realm itself to manifest them. This is why you only received one from Hydaelyn, and why the rest just appeared. (Fire from Ifrit, Wind from Garuda, Earth from Titan, Lightning as a gift from the Sylphs, Ice from Isgebind). It's a positive feedback loop; strength leads to being chosen, the Crystal leads to more strength, that strength in turn draws the Light.

In Toto-Rak, depending on your client language, Lahabrea's words are varying degrees of cryptic. In some languages, he goes full on Bond Villain and explains that you are a threat to him and why, lol.

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Originally Posted by Lahabrea

Je dois dire que ton cas me fascine. Je suis particulièrement intrigué par l'être qui t'habite...
I must say that your case fascinates me. I am particularly intrigued by the existence which inhabits you...

Il y avait bien longtemps que je n'avais pas vu un “Guerrier de la Lumière”, ce mal insidieux qui ronge la planète.
It has been a long time since I last saw a "Warrior of Light", that insidious evil which gnaws at this planet.

En plus de l'Écho, tu as le pouvoir d'interférer dans le monde de l'éther et de matérialiser des cristaux de lumière.
In addition to the Echo, you have the power to interfere with the aetherial world and materialize the Crystals of Light.

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That flash when you strike Garuda is literally shearing the aether from her and forging a Crystal of Light with it, though you don't seem to be doing so consciously. Of course, it might be Hydaelyn Herself doing it, though the interaction between us and the crystals seemed to manifest even when Midgardsormr severed our connection to Her.

The Echo allows one to ignore the effects of tempering. That is part of why the Scions rely on the Warrior of Light to deal with primal threats. It is possible to defeat primals without fighters who have the Echo, but it tends to be rather messy. For example, the Company of Heroes had to rely on a three wave system, the first getting tempered, the second killing the tempered, and the third defeating the primal. Similarly, Immortal Flames expeditions to fight Ifrit are said to lead to large amounts of tempered Casualties. In 1.0, all of the members of the Path of the Twelve had the echo. In 2.0 onwards, but it can be assumed that your companions are adventurers with the echo.

Several characters with the echo (it's artificial form) have used it more creatively though. Ysale and Zenos managed to use their echo-given resistance to control primals. When Garuda, Shinryu, Ifrit, and Lakshmi all attempt to temper the player character, they are shocked by it not working.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

It is possible to defeat primals without fighters who have the Echo, but it tends to be rather messy. For example, the Company of Heroes had to rely on a three wave system, the first getting tempered, the second killing the tempered, and the third defeating the primal.

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That is ridiculously brutal.

I mean, that was what always hit me about FF14. Sure it has the anime tropes and the cat ladies, but when push comes to shove the story writers don't hold back on reminding you of what real sacrifice means. It ain't clean and it ain't romantic.

This really hit home after the initial encounter with Ifrit when we were told that all those people we had "saved" had been summarily massacred when we left. And then during the Warring Triad story-line, Yshtola reminded us that it would have been our duty to euthanize the servants of primals that were stuck defenseless in Allagan preservation pods if given the chance.

It would be nothing short of a miracle, or a sure sign of benign psychopathy, if our Warrior of Light didn't end up with PTSD after all the stuff we put him or her through.

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Originally Posted by Kyran-Varlsen

That is ridiculously brutal.

I mean, that was what always hit me about FF14. Sure it has the anime tropes and the cat ladies, but when push comes to shove the story writers don't hold back on reminding you of what real sacrifice means. It ain't clean and it ain't romantic.

This really hit home after the initial encounter with Ifrit when we were told that all those people we had "saved" had been summarily massacred when we left. And then during the Warring Triad story-line, Yshtola reminded us that it would have been our duty to euthanize the servants of primals that were stuck defenseless in Allagan preservation pods if given the chance.

It would be nothing short of a miracle, or a sure sign of benign psychopathy, if our Warrior of Light didn't end up with PTSD after all the stuff we put him or her through.

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You sir, should level DRK.....

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Originally Posted by Belhi

You sir, should level DRK.....

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As long as it's more interesting than Paladin, I will look into it.

On another story mode question for Garuda: Why does she look like a hyur/elezan woman with wings when her followers are Ixalis? her followers call her beautiful, but is this a sign that they consider themselves ugly? It's the same with Zurvan, he has the face of a handsome hyur yet his followers are reptilian creatures with more teeth than good skin on their faces.

Maybe these gods were created by Kith races (such as Hyur or Elezan) and then adopted or were forced upon the Ixal and the followers of Zurvan who then just ran with it.

When it comes to the Primals like Ifrit, Titan, Leviathan, Ravana, Bismark and even Susano there is no disconnect from follower to gods due to appearance because these primals represent a manifestation of power or a cultural point of reverence. But with Primals like Garuda and Ramuh, it seems a developer blurp to just design them to look so alien to their followers that they could be Hyur gods. Lakshmi also kinda falls into this despite the fact she looks far more like her followers than Garuda, and I say this because she has no snake features (fangs, scales) upon her that we can see (though she may have a tail under her billowy dress).

There is actually a very cool in game reason for Garuda to have a mostly human appearance.

**Spoilers for Heavensward Below**

In the latter parts of Heavensward, the heroes travel to a gigantic floating island created by the Allagans called Azys La. It was a legendary research base, and contains a great many chimeric creations. One of the dungeons here, the Fractal Continuum, features many. One of the most curious examples is the Ixallion , who appear to be winged Ixal. The lore on them claims that they were soldiers created to put down rebellions on the surface and that they had an unstable genetic structure. Curiously, this relates to the Ixal culture's belief in Atylan, the floating continent, the 'gods' they were warriors for, and the loss of their wings. The Lore Book posits that the commander of the Garuda Airborne Division was a beautiful female general. It stands to reason (albeit implied) that the Garuda we know is a mythologized form of this human commander.

It's additionally worth considering that individuals can find beauty outside of their own race. No one thinks it odd for someone to appreciate a horse's beauty, for instance, or even an airplane's. The Ixali may consider Garuda to be beautiful because of her magnificent wings (FOUR of them, no less!), as well as her very nature as a being capable of flight, and the Hyur-like features are just part of the package.

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Originally Posted by Kyran-Varlsen

[Garuda's] followers call her beautiful, but is this a sign that they consider themselves ugly?

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"It's okay. Everyone's furry for Krystal fleshy for Garuda." - Ixali Proverb

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

There is actually a very cool in game reason for Garuda to have a mostly human appearance.

**Spoilers for Heavensward Below**

In the latter parts of Heavensward, the heroes travel to a gigantic floating island created by the Allagans called Azys La. It was a legendary research base, and contains a great many chimeric creations. One of the dungeons here, the Fractal Continuum, features many. One of the most curious examples is the Ixallion , who appear to be winged Ixal. The lore on them claims that they were soldiers created to put down rebellions on the surface and that they had an unstable genetic structure. Curiously, this relates to the Ixal culture's belief in Atylan, the floating continent, the 'gods' they were warriors for, and the loss of their wings. The Lore Book posits that the commander of the Garuda Airborne Division was a beautiful female general. It stands to reason (albeit implied) that the Garuda we know is a mythologized form of this human commander.

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I never did that dungeon or read the lore book. That is actually quite interesting.

I had always suspected that a great many of the strange tribes inhabiting Eorzea were artificially created by the Allagan, and it seems true in the case of the Vira and the Ixali. Which makes me wonder who else the Allagans created in ages past.

Actually the Ananta quite likely predated Allagan manipulation. Rather they seem likely to have been the 'material' for experimentation. They certainly weren't the only beast tribe the Allagans messed with.

Actually I think the proto-Ixal were called the Iksalion based on this picture:

http://i.imgur.com/sPnKr4B.png

Wait, so if we can subconsciously tear aether away from a primal and turn it into a crystal... that sounds rather useful. Why can we only do it that time? And I thought makoado said that Crystals of Light were direct gifts from Hydelaen?

To be honest, the circumstances under which we acquire crystals don't seem to have any sort of commonality. Sometimes we're given the crystal, sometimes we find it, and in Garuda's case, we rip it out of her chest. It's like the universe is saying, "Welp, it's been a while since you last got a MacGuffin. Looks like you're due!"

While several crystals are found after defeating Primals, it doesn't really seem like those crystals are tied to the primals in any special way, in spite of the fact that the crystals we got from them were the Primals' element - particularly given that the Ice crystal doesn't even HAVE a Primal. (Shiva's first summoning was well-after we collected the Ice crystal.)

Not the best example of storytelling in this game, imo.

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Originally Posted by Kyran-Varlsen

When it comes to the Primals like Ifrit, Titan, Leviathan, Ravana, Bismark and even Susano there is no disconnect from follower to gods due to appearance because these primals represent a manifestation of power or a cultural point of reverence. But with Primals like Garuda and Ramuh, it seems a developer blurp to just design them to look so alien to their followers that they could be Hyur gods. Lakshmi also kinda falls into this despite the fact she looks far more like her followers than Garuda, and I say this because she has no snake features (fangs, scales) upon her that we can see (though she may have a tail under her billowy dress).

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Ramuh is implied to be sylphs' interpretation of Rhalgr (as the old man of the woods)

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Ramuh is implied to be sylphs' interpretation of Rhalgr (as the old man of the woods)

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Yah, it seems that the game's lore goes deep enough to explain why these Primals look the way they do. My mistake was not realizing Garuda had been explained later due to a new addition to the Ixali Origins story.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Ramuh is implied to be sylphs' interpretation of Rhalgr (as the old man of the woods)

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This opens an old wound, lol. Like, it does seem clear that Ramuh is a skewed, aged Rhalgr adoption. That much is easy; look at The Spire.

But it bothers me so much that a Crystal of Light was somehow a primal's to give away. I wonder if the "Old Man of the Wood" was actually a former Warrior of Light that gave his Crystal of Light to the Sylphs, it being of their element and all that, and this Archon simply got caught up in the Rhalgr-incarnate mythology. I can buy that Ramuh knows so much because the Sylphs believe him to be intelligent, and so he is, but a Crystal of Light? A sliver of Hydaelyn's power gifted to Her chosen? A primal's to give away?

It is a little unclear how the crystals work exactly. I'm not sure there really is a direct answer to it either, and the game has really glossed over them ever since ARR.

One of my favorite Primal origin ideas put forth by the Lore book (and other places) is actually Shiva's. We don't know that much about the original Shiva, although she presumably was an ordinary woman. The primal that Ysayle summons is explicitly quite different from the original one, to the point that Hraesvelgr considers it an insult. There are a few interesting things that have to do with this though. One is that Hraesvelgr seems to have control over light and ice magic, so it's possible the ice connection was conflated from that. The much more interesting thing to note are the similarities between the Heretic's version of Shiva and the goddess Halone. Namely in how Halone is an ice aspected goddess of war, and how Shiva is an ice aspected warrior figure skilled with blades and other weapons. It's quite possible that Ysayle (and the other heretics) version of Shiva was heavily colored by the Halonic doctrine, which is fascinating.

I'm pretty sure that Hraesvelgr uses Light and Ice not Water and Ice, as I don't remember him casting any water spells during his boss fight.

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Originally Posted by Leaf_Dragoon

I'm pretty sure that Hraesvelgr uses Light and Ice not Water and Ice, as I don't remember him casting any water spells during his boss fight.

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That's what I get for writing that on my phone. Thanks. I'll edit the post.

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Originally Posted by Kyran-Varlsen

Actually I think the proto-Ixal were called the Iksalion based on this picture:

http://i.imgur.com/sPnKr4B.png

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Whoa. Am I mistaken, then, in drawing the conclusion that the beast tribes are the descendants of construct created by Allag for various purposes?

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Originally Posted by Delily

Whoa. Am I mistaken, then, in drawing the conclusion that the beast tribes are the descendants of construct created by Allag for various purposes?

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We can be certain that Allag at least created the Ixal, and we can be certain that Allag didn't create them all, as there are bits of flavor-text scattered around implying that Allag experimented with already extant beast tribes to create new chimeras. (Unless they created those, too, and then came back for them later...? lol)

Yeah, the Allagans were still explicitly at war with beast tribes during their day, most notably the beast tribes in Meracydia. It's unlikely that they were the progenitors of all the beast tribes, especially with the consideration that enough mastery of aetherochemistry to be able to create Chimeras was only possible near the end of the Empire. Amusingly some Eorzean scholars believe that the Biloko line of enemies (the tree people) are actually the Meracydian tribe that summoned Sephirot in ages past. But they're not even considered fully sapient anymore.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

Yeah, the Allagans were still explicitly at war with beast tribes during their day, most notably the beast tribes in Meracydia. It's unlikely that they were the progenitors of all the beast tribes, especially with the consideration that enough mastery of aetherochemistry to be able to create Chimeras was only possible near the end of the Empire. Amusingly some Eorzean scholars believe that the Biloko line of enemies (the tree people) are actually the Meracydian tribe that summoned Sephirot in ages past. But they're not even considered fully sapient anymore.

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Where'd that picture go showing the similarities between Ifrit and Zurvan? That was fairly interesting, even if Zurvan's followers and the Amal'jaa don't look much alike (though are both reptilian...)

New environment and time can do a lot to change the evolution of things, after all...

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

We can be certain that Allag at least created the Ixal, and we can be certain that Allag didn't create them all, as there are bits of flavor-text scattered around implying that Allag experimented with already extant beast tribes to create new chimeras. (Unless they created those, too, and then came back for them later...? lol)

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Thanks! Interesting, I need to go back and read those books.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

This opens an old wound, lol. Like, it does seem clear that Ramuh is a skewed, aged Rhalgr adoption. That much is easy; look at The Spire.

But it bothers me so much that a Crystal of Light was somehow a primal's to give away. I wonder if the "Old Man of the Wood" was actually a former Warrior of Light that gave his Crystal of Light to the Sylphs, it being of their element and all that, and this Archon simply got caught up in the Rhalgr-incarnate mythology. I can buy that Ramuh knows so much because the Sylphs believe him to be intelligent, and so he is, but a Crystal of Light? A sliver of Hydaelyn's power gifted to Her chosen? A primal's to give away?

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That always bothered me, when hraesvelgr told us that primals are essentially what we imagine given form it really irked me because of our past iteration with Garuda and Ramuh.
I think you might be onto something however with that wol (or echo gifted) theory, but I wonder, what actually happens to echo gifted ppl turned into primals? when they are desummoned to their will cease to exist? or the simple existence of tempered is an anchor for their beign to this world?