[Suggestion] Tomes of roles

The tome system in the game kinda make one of the best spec of the game bad, since you can be every job in only one char you will need to gear up every job to be abble of runing end game content whit it but you can't do this since every content in the game give you one 1 item per week and tomes cap lock the player in the same way. So I was thinking on a system where people can gear up various jobs and the gap betewen players whit diferent playrstyles and playtime don't grow to much. My suggestion is make Tome and the token from raids be separated by role.

The tome system is easy to think, instead of only one kind of tome where you can buy anything you wil have a tome for tank, a tome for healers, a tome for "slaying", a tome for aiming and a tome for casting. At the end of a Dugeon you will get the five type of tome however if are in the role of that tome you will get a bonus for that type of tome.
A Example:
A player did Kugane Castle as Tank in the end of the Dugeon.
(Since Tank is a class in need most of the time you can make like if you use a role in need you get a bonus in every type of token, this will encourage players on running contents in other roles). So in my example he will get:
20 Allagan tome of Creation (Fending) + 10 Being a Adventure in need.
10 Allagan tome of Creation (Healing) + 5 Being a Adventure in need.
10 Allagan tome of Creation (Slaying) + 5 Being a Adventure in need.
10 Allagan tome of Creation (Casting) + 5 Being a Adventure in need.
10 Allagan tome of Creation (Aiming) +5 Being a Adventure in need.
If the same player run Kugane as Melee DPS (since he is not a class in need).
10 Allagan tome of Creation (Fending)
10 Allagan tome of Creation (Healing)
20 Allagan tome of Creation (Slaying)
10 Allagan tome of Creation (Casting)
10 Allagan tome of Creation (Aiming)

For the Raids like Deltascape we will have tokens for every role like the tomes and instead of only two chest for raid you will have five chest, one for every role. And you can get one token for a role chest per week.
I don't know how hard is to do something like that so I wanna some opinion from comunity and maybe some of our opinions can get trough the dev team.

Because....we need more token bloat right?

They will never get rid of the token/tome system, so thinking in making it "easy" for us is better.

Uh...
I like the idea, but just for weekly capped tomes.
I would suggest to add a neutral tomestone into this.
Cap for the neutral 300 per week and for the aspected tomes 200(?) each type.
This would make gearing secondary/tertiary jobs easier but keeps the need for a focus on a main job.

I would also like a vendor, where you can trade in tome gear for another tome gear of the same type of tomes and gearslot, including a little fee of 1/4 or 1/2 the original tome price.
This would make it easier to change main jobs.

For Raid tokens I don't like this idea.
I would suggest, that normal Raid just resets a second time with the crafter reset on Thursday or Friday.
For Savage...the clear tokens should reset like I suggest for normal Raid tokens.
The chests shouldn't change, perhaps make the DR for players who have cleared before lower like:
1-2 cleared before: no DR
3-6 cleared before: 1 chest less
7-8 cleared before: 0 chests
This would be an incentive to bring players with clears into partys who are seeking for loot in the current week and would allow mixed partys for the suggested clear token reset with less drawbacks.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

I would also like a vendor, where you can trade in tome gear for another tome gear of the same type of tomes and gearslot, including a little fee of 1/4 or 1/2 the original tome price.
This would make it easier to change main jobs.

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If I were to support any change to the system this would be it.

Along with a rollover week. Any tomes not capped the previous week gets added on to the current week. But only up to 1 weeks worth so its not as bad if you have to go away for a few days and take care of life. You can come back and be caught up and not punished for not playing that week.

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Originally Posted by Lildragora

Along with a rollover week. Any tomes not capped the previous week gets added on to the current week. But only up to 1 weeks worth so its not as bad if you have to go away for a few days and take care of life. You can come back and be caught up and not punished for not playing that week.

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This would be great but like all it needs some drawbacks or balancing so people don't just gathering huge amounts of rollovers they will never grind out, for example:
- only half of the missed Cap gets a rollover
- rollover cap only gets filled after current cap is reached and rollover cap can't rollover again
- rollover cap can't rollover again
- rollovered Cap gets reseted with new kind of tomes.
In the light of the aspected tomes additional examples:
- rollover only for the neutral/unaspected tomes
- rollover for aspected tomes lesser then neutral/unaspected tomes

I like rollover week, but not so much the introduction of new different tomestones to keep track of, I'd prefer it if they just increased the amount of tomes obtained after reaching certain threshold, so once you gear one job as your main (aka obtain the equivalent of tomestones of gearing 1 job) the remaining jobs can enjoy a boost of tomestone gain.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

This would be great but like all it needs some drawbacks or balancing so people don't just gathering huge amounts of rollovers they will never grind out, for example:
- only half of the missed Cap gets a rollover
- rollover cap only gets filled after current cap is reached and rollover cap can't rollover again.
- rollover cap can't rollover again.
- rollovered Cap gets reseted with new kind of tomes.

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Why would you limit it? You just get your weekly cap and then dig into whatever wasn't gathered the previous week. Why would it need to be half? The point of it would be to allow breaks without sacrificing falling behind a week.

Otherwise spot on with what I was thinking.

I'd rather the cap be extended at say 2000 per week rather than have to deal with massive tomestone bloat by introducing multiple types, if the goal was to make it easier to gear multiple classes. Using our current tomestones for example the UI would have to be adjusted for tracking 25 different tomestones, that is including the old discontinued tomestones that are still tracked for those who have not converted them into poetics. If you had a generic on top of the typed then you are looking at 30 tracked tomestones. Currency bloat is a old problem in other MMOs constantly complained about and you would be introducing it here.

Now you could go and shrink that down to 5 with very generic tomestones for everything, eliminating the "of Poetics" "of Verity" "of Creation" etc, only then you screw with people gearing via tomestone gear at 50 and 60. Because they would then be sharing tomestones with their level cap brethren and suffering from the same weekly cap. Which would by extension screw with the level cap classes because their tomestones are being eaten up by lower level jobs.

Now you could go and make it so only the limited weekly tomestones are split into the multiple types, but then the problem arises when the current weekly tomestone is shifted to being not the weekly tomestone. At the current 2k max that can be held at any one time you run into the issue when they become the new generic tomestone that you cannot have more then 500 in a given type or you would lose tomestones from conversion overflow. Which would happen very often.

Then there is the UI bloat in turn ins, as well as the issue of the fact that the way the current turn in UI is designed it cannot accept mixed values. You cannot trade in 250 fending tomestones and 750 generic tomestones to pay for a 500 fending 500 generic item. As the turn in system for item exchange works by absolutes.

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Originally Posted by Lildragora

Why would you limit it? You just get your weekly cap and then dig into whatever wasn't gathered the previous week. Why would it need to be half? The point of it would be to allow breaks without sacrificing falling behind a week.

Otherwise spot on with what I was thinking.

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The halfing was just an example to incentivize the outgrinding of the Cap but lower the drawback of not doing so, not a suggestion from my side.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

The halfing was just an example to incentivize the outgrinding of the Cap but lower the drawback of not doing so, not a suggestion from my side.

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Ahhhhh, I see. That would be a good middle ground I think, and even half would still be a great improvement over right now. Could take a vacation or break and not worry about falling too far behind in both scenarios. Although while that would incentive the outright grinding for the week it wouldn't resolve the break times completely. Either way would be a step in the right direction!

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

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Think simple.
Only weekly capped tomestones get aspected tomes.
By the introduction of new tomes the previous tomes get all merged into their basic kind of tome.
There will be probably a loss in the transition cause of max Cap you can carry but this can be compensated by a timed overcapppng.
Also for buying gear you basicly pay with the aspected kind of tome and if you don't have enough it will fill the gap from your unaspected pool.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

Think simple.
Only weekly capped tomestones get aspected tomes.
By the introduction of new tomes the previous tomes get all added into their basic kind of tome.
There will be probably a loss in the transition cause of max Cap you can carry but this can be compensated by a timed overcapppng.
Also for buying gear you basicly pay with the aspected kind of tome and if you don't have enough it will fill the gap from your unaspected pool.

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Problem: Equipment exchange for resources goes in absolutes. Which would require a complete rework of the old code to change.
Problem: The currency bloat would result in the UI needing to be reworked to accomodate the doubling of the amount of tracked tomestones.
Problem: The UI for rewards on dungeons would need to be reworked to accommodate a large increase in the number of guaranteed completion rewards.
Problem: The feeling of inability to gear multiple classes will be enhanced because the feeling of the amount of grind will increase. Getting 20 slaying when you need 875 for that chest piece feels terrible compared to getting 50 you could have spent on it. Especially for those who only play one type of class.

For someone who only likes casters they are gearing 3 classes at once, for someone who only likes healers they are gearing 3 classes at once, and so on for tanks. But the split tomestones would invoke a feeling that the other class types are drawing away reward that could have gone to the one they wanted. Making the grind feel slower.

The reason why they went with a single tomestone is that it simplifies things. They do not need to dig into the spaghetti code to try to change the exchange system and hope they do not break the rest of the game (99 bugs in the code, 99 bugs in the code, take one down patch it out 135 bugs in the code...), people can invest specifically in what they want without feeling like they have waste resources, and is also easy to track without creating much currency bloat (something gamers in other major MMOs complain about).

Now one reason for why the 450 tomestone cap is probably because Yoshida specifically designs the game with the intention of giving people time to play other games, deal with real life commitments, hang out with family etc. Its not hard to just run your roulettes, maybe do some raids one night, and hit the weekly cap. Then you can go play other games because Yoshida does not want people to feel like they have to login every day and grind just to keep up.


Ah also another thing, there would also need to be "of maiming" and "of scouting" tomestones as part of the OPs idea otherwise it can be argued that the idea needlessly punishes melee DPS compared to ranged and caster DPS. As Ranged and Caster DPS share gear, while melee DPS is split into 3 types (maiming, striking, scouting).

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

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Im not into Code so I can't argue on that...
I know it would be hard to implement but this is a discussion about ways to easy horizontal gearing of multiple "roles".

For the caps:
Unaspected: 300
Aspected: 200 each
Effectiv weekly cap increase of 50 for main job and additional 200 for the other "roles".
Holding Cap at 1.5 k for unaspected and 1k for each aspected.
The gain of 50 tomes should be split in 30 unaspected and 20 aspected of the "role" you do the dungeon with a bonus of 5 or 10 aspected for every "role" on level cap.
For roulette bonus of 40, 25 unaspected and 15 aspected of the played "role", with a bonus of 5 for each of the other "roles" at level cap.

Also don't differ the roles, differ by "main stat", so tanks share same aspected tome, DRG, SAM and MNK share and NIN, BRD and MCH share.

I think this would be by ways better then just increasing the weekly cap and make it easier to gear multiple "roles".

Let's put it this way: how many pieces of top-tier raid gear do you think the player should be entitled to obatin, per week?

One per character per week? Or one per job per character per week?

The problem was never the design of a "better" token system, but the intention behind the design. FFXIV tomestones are this way because the devs want to gate our progression. We are allowed exactly this many pieces of gear at most, over the course of this many weeks. And only after that design intention was finalized, the tomestone system was designed.

It is clear that we are not supposed to be gearing all our jobs in parallel with just one run per week. Otherwise there are plenty other ways to allow parallel progression. For example a system similar to the Ixali turn-in where each turn-in counts towards a total value cap of 1500, and we can choose to turn in 3 items worth 500, or 5 items each worth 300.

So the "problem" was never the implementation, but the design choice.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

Let's put it this way: how many pieces of top-tier raid gear do you think the player should be entitled to obatin, per week?

One per character per week? Or one per job per character per week?

The problem was never the design of a "better" token system, but the intention behind the design. FFXIV tomestones are this way because the devs want to gate our progression. We are allowed exactly this many pieces of gear at most, over the course of this many weeks. And only after that design intention was finalized, the tomestone system was designed.

It is clear that we are not supposed to be gearing all our jobs in parallel with just one run per week. Otherwise there are plenty other ways to allow parallel progression. For example a system similar to the Ixali turn-in where each turn-in counts towards a total value cap of 1500, and we can choose to turn in 3 items worth 500, or 5 items each worth 300.

So the "problem" was never the implementation, but the design choice.

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To add to this, letting players gear all their jobs in tome gear means that the "catch-up" content is automatically invalidated for a huge number of players. SE WANTS you running that catch-up stuff for your alt jobs, because the rubes who float in and out of their monthly subs need bodies in the queues for it. If players feel like they can't come back any time they quit without being "behind", they just won't come back, or will only come back for expansions where the gear hurdle is reset.