The novice network needs reworked, and a way to rate mentors!

I left the novice network soon after joining.
IT IS NOT HELPFUL!

Mentors tend to talk about high level things, and when I saw someone ask a question they would get the worst answer possible.

They answer the questions in ways that would require the sprout to have prior knowledge, is the point of the NN to educate sprouts?

"how do I get __ mount?"

"beast tribe quests"

"what are beast tribe quests? Will I need to be a max level?"

then the mentors changed topic to high level content conversation between themselves.

I cant remember exactly what another question was, but it was something along the lines of do i need to do _____ or ___ to attaine ______?

and the mentor just said "no"

and never continued into a more in depth answer


when I pointed out they should stop being so dismissive to the sprouts they said new players took the channel too seriously.

why should there be political talk and arguments between mentors in an NN chat? IT IS FOR NEW PLAYERS TO LEARN THE GAME NO? not for mentors to talk about end content raids as if its their FC.

Also there was ONE mentor i really liked, they would play devils advocate and tell the sprouts that no, they didnt need to grind tomes, or do high end content to still be a valued player, they can do other things to get gear good enough to unlock hard modes etc n still play with friends, telling the sprouts that this game IS casual friendly, and also hard core friendly, which was so refreshing to hear someone give so many reasons as to how a casual player can still feel adequate.

Every time they spoke up though it seemed a particular player who raided heavily would bash them and try to start arguments.

WHY CAN WE NOT RATE MENTORS?

I have been in dungeons where a mentor just afked a ton, stood in AOE area etc not caring, not healing that much unless someone was close to death.

Or you say I am a new player, havent been here before, so they tell me stand on the gold circle when it lights up. and jumped up n down on the gold circle on the ground so i went over there n jumped to show them i followed what they said. they pulled boss and i was pleased thinking i wouldnt die stupidly.

So i did, but problem was that also there were two light up spots on the same gold circle, and a rune that had a lit up circle under it. I wasnt sure so I just picked one lit up spot by myself n I died, I was like... was I suppose to be the rune? n they said yes


well you never said you were suppose to be in a rune.


OR when i got PTSD from the moogle trial bc we wiped 7x finally i said "I think were doing something wrong?"

then suddenly everyone argued over the order to kill them in, and we finally did it on the 10th attempt

now i avoid dungeons unless its with my FC.

I left the novice network almost as soon as I got in it, but see such bad behavior from the mentors in dungeons its silly.

I understand not having a system that is a bad rating to go along with the commendations, since new players might get unfairly judged.

But if you are a mentor I think it should really be an option.

Yes, the whole Mentor thing is a nice concept, but poorly executed. It's a real sad state of affairs. There are decent/good mentors out there, but, as with many other things, the absolutely crappy ones seem to be in the majority. And little to no consequences for them (unless they break any major rules and it can be proven, I guess - can't remember of ever hearing it happen though).

As a mentor myself I tend to avoid the NN exactly because of this. I left the network at one point after a situation happened where mentors got annoyed with one asking a few question and telling them to "google it". I pointed out the channel is there to help new players but a few mentors were being specifically dismissive of that comment, resulting in not only some mentors ridiculing me (and the person asking), but also some new players feeling the need to do so. Ever since I prefer a more hands-on experience mentoring when I run into new people in dungeon, asking them if they'd like me to explain things. It works a lot better for me like this, this wandering hermit style if you will. I run into a lot more people actually appreciating the help.

Sad thing though, I tell them to join but be wary of the NN, still advising them to at least check it out. I also tell them they can report any dismissive or outright rude mentors in there, but I feel it's unfortunate I actually have to mention this to them. :/

although this character is not a mentor yet my other one is and after a situation I just encountered with people I once thought to be kind and friendly I was left aghast it was bad enough that I really do not want any further contact with them, it was embarrassing that here I was the only non mentor or sprout in the group and the only person who was willing to be patient and kind despite the errors made by both the mentors and sprouts. With people flying mentor banners like that it makes it seem like our gaming community to new players is quite the toxic one and most times that is not the case, but one situation like the one I encountered earlier on today could probably cause the player to stop playing completely because they were a new player new to the dungeon and quite a fast learner once we did something he learned it, but instead the two of them was just bashing him for his low dps non stop without offering anything constrictive to help him with it, and it made me angry that they could still have a crown to be considered mentors when they acted like that.
Ofc here are some suggestions I have maybe to help out the mentor system in its current state...
1. Remind people that parser are considered third party programs, and even just using them in game is indeed an actionable offense...
2. Remove the reward tier for going in as a mentor to a party, yes there will be less mentors out there that do not have it in them to do it if there is nothing in it for them but turning our community into a toxic one by rewarding the behavior like I saw today makes me feel like this is a necessary step, I will still become a mentor when I can and I know several other would as well to help the players learning how to play the game, whether there is anything in it for me or not it will make for a better community overall.
3. add a strike system where a sprout can report a mentor for inappropriate behavior honestly I think this will help the most a certain amount of strikes causes the person to permanently loose their mentor status or loose their ability to gain anything from the mentor system, or some type of repercussion that would help new players know that we do no want this community to become toxic.

Not a mentor, but really like this idea as I have seen my fair share of rude Mentors in just random duties.

Best post I'v seen in a very long time.

the novice network is especially bad when you ask a question and are told to google it, the whole mentor/newb system is flawed anyway, mentors can get good ratings and maintain their status simply from having friends who vote them up all the time which is exactly how mentors are there in the first place, they aren't exactly there because they want to help but because they want the prestige (read - shiny icons) it comes with

i literally left the NN today because i was told to google

I sort of dislike the mentor chat in general :/ as nice as the idea sounds (conceptually), the chat is generally filled up with mentors talking about their latest achievements and going on too in-depth explanations of "current meta" that are too elaborate for any new player to actually follow. Or, at least that was what I saw in my last two alt characters, as I usually don't join the mentor chat on my main.

Imo ideally a mentor system should help forge a healthy bond between -A- mentor and -A- mentee, rather than shoving everyone together in a chat and let the whole concept derail into something else.

Example of what I would have liked the mentor system to have been:

-Upon choosing to join the mentor network, a new player will automatically be assigned to an available mentor (a mentor that is not currently assigned any other mentees)
-The "novice chat" would then be a chat solely for the private use of that mentor and mentee
-This "bond" should be able to be broken if necessary (for example if a new player has interest in PvP and mentor has little knowledge of this content, or if the new player and mentor simply do not get along for whatever reason - there should however be a "cooldown" to this, so if you'd broken your mentorship with mentor B and be assigned a mentor A immediately after, you'd only be able to break mentorship with mentor A after one or two days, or something to that effect)
-Mentorship lasts until mentee reaches x level (at the current point level 60 would be a good "stop", or until you lose your leaf), and at this point your mentorship ends and you "rate" your mentor
-Mentors with "negative" or "too low" ratings would then be unable to keep their mentor status and take on new pupils.

I genuinely had a "bad" time when I was in the network as a new player on my alt - sometimes the conversations would deviate so far from "new player doubts" that I'd feel extremely out of place, and uncomfortable with having to actually ask anything.
Not all mentors are like this, of course! I DID come across some cool people - answering posted questions, joining in progress duties, helping people clear content at a slower pace (namely with castrum and prae) - but yes, I do think the entire thing could be reworked.

I get that devs are dead scared of offending the community in any possible manner (no parses, no posting names, no calling people out on poor performance, no nothing), so I see that they'd be against a rating system for mentors, but right now the entire thing feels like an afterthought stapled onto the game.

EDIT: oh, and if you -MUST- add pretty mounts and titles as rewards, then a rating system makes even more sense.

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

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I like this idea. My fondest memories from MMOs are when I was lost and encountered someone who was experienced and knowledgeable, and we teamed up to play together. They got to feel smart and great by teaching me and I got to feel welcome and optimistic for the future. With many of these players, we formed friendships that become more than "tell me how to do X".

If a person is interested in helping they should consider new players will not automatically know how to do everything if you tell them how to do one thing.

The whole point of being a mentor is to welcome people into the game that might run away scared after getting stuck. So this means you have to actively CONTINUALLY help, so having a specific person or small group whom you are helping is the best way to achieve success. Mentor's have become so hostile because they are tired of answering the same questions without seeing how their help is actually contributing to success.

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

Imo ideally a mentor system should help forge a healthy bond between -A- mentor and -A- mentee, rather than shoving everyone together in a chat

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There are a few drawbacks to a system like that.

The first is that mentors don't live in the game any more than anybody else. They're not available 24/7, and if a new player were assigned to just one of them, then there's no mentor system at all during the times that player isn't online. The more flexible system we have now lets new players get advice and help from whichever mentors are on and available at the time they need that advice/help.

Anther issue is that no one mentor is going to be equally able to answer every question. Sure, pretty much any of them could answer basic stuff like where to unlock chocobo companions, but if someone doesn't understand how a skill works or where to use it, mentors who actually play that class or job might be able to give a better answer. So maybe the one best able to give crafting advice isn't the one best able to give advice on using Astrologian cards or whatever. The Novice Network puts sprouts in touch with numerous mentors with a wide range of expertise, increasing the chance that one of them will be able to help them.

Then there's the fact that, with multiple people there, it's possible to identify when bad information is being given out. If one mentor answers a question with outdated info that changed in the last patch, or is otherwise simply wrong (or just incomplete), then others can chime in and point out the more up-to-date or complete answer. A one-on-one system wouldn't allow for that to happen so a lot of new players would be getting bad information and advice.

The Novice Network is also important in putting new players in touch with other new players. That's sometimes a better place to get advice and usually a better place to get players to run content together than the mentors are.



The problems with our current mentor system and the Novice Network come about by lack of accountability, not because there's more than one person available for a new player to get advice from.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

There are a few drawbacks to a system like that.

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Yeah :/ most of the drawbacks you listed were spot on, really. Perhaps we could have a subsystem that would give the various types of crowns some actual meaning, and upon entering the NN the leaf would choose what "type" of mentor to be assigned to (i.e tank, healer, rdps, pdps or mdps - not sure where the crafting/PvP subtypes would fit in with something like this in place though).

... but -and I'm probably not the only one thinking this- I really do think that having a single chat with everyone shoved in it will eventually lead to mentors chatting among themselves about things completely out of reach (at a time) for the new players, thus alienating them in a chat meant to cater to their issues). This is my number one gripe with the current system tbh, mentors putting more effort into looking cool in front of each other and in front of new players instead of trying their best to help out.

Well. That and the titles and mounts, actually. I really don't think adding glamour incentives to a system that is meant to help people out is a great idea - and I'm pretty sure this is the origin of most impatient/rude mentors in roulettes, as they're probably more interested in completing roulettes x number of times for the prize.

Being a mentor should be like a part time job. If you want to be called a mentor then it should come with much more responsibility.

You can't sign on to help new people on a regular schedule? You can't be a mentor. But those that do, should get rewarded for it aka paid.

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Originally Posted by brogettoku

Being a mentor should be like a part time job. If you want to be called a mentor then it should come with much more responsibility.

You can't sign on to help new people on a regular schedule? You can't be a mentor. But those that do, should get rewarded for it aka paid.

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There is a reason why people who are mentors irl do not get paid, its because it then strips what that person has to say of any real credibility. If someone says something to me and I know they are being compensated for it in any way why would I listen to them. The main job of a mentor is to lead and show direction to individuals by example, and that is what a lot of people are not seeing in the current mentoring system as it stands now. Compensating people to be good and decent people in instances instead of elitist jerks will only compound the problem that exist not make it better.

I think what we really need is customer service to actually enforce the mandate of mentors. As it stands now, they are only subject to the same rules as everyone else. So if they harass others badly enough to get banned, we at least have that recourse. But as far as actually being an "exemplar of player etiquette" and so forth, nothing is technically holding them to that. It would be great if customer service (that is, the GMs) actually had the power to remove mentor status from people when it's clear they want Novice Network to be elitist insular endgame chat rather than helping new players as intended by the devs in the first place.

I had good experiences in the NN, but it sounds like YMMV. Report bad mentors to the GM's. The NN is there to help new people not to be the private chat for mentors. Rude mentors in particular should be reported.

While experiences can vary I wish mentors could also rate players, most don't listen, can't take advice, and think they know everything. Oh wait that almost 80% of the human race. So yeah there are trolls every where not just disguised as Mentors.

Ok so rate the mentors like a commendation system for how helpful the advice is, but also add rewards for the mentors who achieve a high rating to encourage them to give the most helpful advice they can. I practically live in this game and have a big knowledge library built up, I can explain how all the systems work in detail, but to be honest it gets tiring answering the same things so many times over the years so I stopped making the effort to maintain the novice network. That and it having a lot of off-topic discussion between mentors when last I checked. Maybe I'm being greedy/lazy asking for rewards for advice; think I'll reactivate NN chat soon and see if anybody needs help.

Rate mentors using a 5 star system... 5 stars means top tier mentor... 1 star is a trash mentor... all mentors start with 3 stars... this would at least identify who should be listened to... 2 stars or less cannot access the NN

We have a commendation system where many players just randomly commend whoever's there regardless of helpfullness just to meet their own commendation challenge log. The Novice Network lets mentors kick others who misuse it, but that turns into kicking wars where they'll just kick each other for having been kicked themselves before...

A rating system sounds good, but only if they could come up with some way to both get people to use it while not encouraging them to mis-use it. They don't seem to have quite succeeded at that before.

I would think they would be more disciplinary actions taken against the bad mentors. We're basically the veterans that accepted the role of helping new players. We're supposed to represent the community, and if a new player see a mentor just behaving in such a negative way, treating them like crap. It could turn people away from the game. Which is money lost for SE...or at least that is how I see it.

The NN is only usefull if you level a different character when you are bored while leveling and you need something to laugh about. Sadly most of the mentors are completly useless and don't even know what they are doing.

A rating system would be a good start but i don't think SE will change anything about that.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

The NN is only usefull if you level a different character when you are bored while leveling and you need something to laugh about. Sadly most of the mentors are completly useless and don't even know what they are doing. A rating system would be a good start but i don't think SE will change anything about that.

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I second that, I was so happy that I met all requirements the moment the system got released. I've been helping out new players not only in the FC's I've been in prior, but also randomly when entering cities etc. I thought that this would be a really good idea, having seen it work in multiple different games and always a good starting point for beginners.

I rage quit after 5 hours, not going to lie about it and maybe other servers are different, but none of the mentors knew what they were doing, knew how to run content or the mechanics of the content. Some of them I even recognized, because it was my friends and I, that sold them the primal and raid clears needed. In fact some of them sat in this chat talking like they had it on farm, when in reality these people couldn't keep themselves alive for 40 seconds during the sale runs. And yes I know, when selling content, mostly pug dies right at the start, however in some content we rather keep them alive due to the mechanics errors that can occur, when dead.

So anyways, others were talking about their dinner and what they would do over the weekend, completely ignoring the sprouts. I felt sorry not only for the new comers, but also for the veterans that actually knew how to play the game, and were willing to help, but got kicked and shouted at by the worst mentors/players. To bad it didn't work out, but I guess a revamp of the system, unless you make extreme high requirements wouldn't make a change.

@OP hope you find some people that are willing to explain things to you, or run some content with you, most of us don't need a badge or icon infront/above their names, nor a channel. In fact most of us don't even like to have the title on. The majority of this community is not like the novice channel wants to make it look like, social wise at least. Sadly skill wise every month it gets worse and worse, nearly matching the bad mentor skills, but that's a story for another day lol. GL

I would love a way to rate Mentors. Granted, I'm guessing as a Mentor myself it wouldn't be something I would do, but I've seen a lot of bad mentors. From ones who berate people in instances, to ones who use Novice Network as their personal linkshell/diary and don't think before they speak resulting in saying "yeah everyone's glad s/he's <status>" about a story NPC, or who are blatantly wrong on a regular basis.

I've mostly given up trying to bother with NN anymore, even though I love helping sprouts & returners and contributing to discussions that aid or teach them. Every time I turn it on now, it's some random discussion between two or three mentors that just floods my chat, or linking their relic weapons, or asking for people for bird farms. If we could rate mentors, then hopefully they'd be rated low enough to not be allowed to be Mentors or something.

I think the best possible thing that could happen for NN is it being required to be a no-nonsense chat. Answer questions, help out with instances sprouts/returners need run, discuss the pros/cons of Role Actions (with sprouts/returners) but don't chatter about your furnishing choices... And have Mentorship be something you have to apply for, and can have actually taken away if abused or not used, along with the icon being changed to something less appealing like a tree or an apple or anything other than a fancy crown.

I have returned to FFXIV after a long period of absence. When I last played the game (which was a month or so after Havensward launched) I found the Mentors to be knowledgeable, helpful and more importantly people you can look up to and aspire to be like. Yes the Novice Network chat did get filled at times with stuff related to high level content but as soon as a sprout asked something the general chatter amongst the mentors stopped and they gave a proper response to the question.

I re-joined FFXIV on October 14th and left the Novice Network a few hours after joining it as sadly I found it to be a most unhelpful place where some were ridiculed for daring to ask questions deemed to be basic and they should use google instead. This is very unfair on those Mentors who continue to try and help people as they get tainted through no fault of their own.

I agree that a rating system is needed but sadly I can also see that it could be abused greatly. Now I am not sure how the mentor duty bonus thing works but how about a pop-up at the end of the duty which FORCES players to respond to "Did you find xxxxxx helpful in their role as a mentor?". The more positive responses that the Mentor gets then they get more of a bonus - if they get all negatives then they get no bonus at all. Of course the chances of anything being implemented are virtually nothing as resources can be better used elsewhere.

The NN mentor system is what happens when all of you bitch and whine in a long "tales of the duty finder" thread, prompting the devs to feel like they need to do something about it. To which they poorly implement, which leads to more complaining. So thanks a lot, you "great community".

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Originally Posted by Jas710

The NN mentor system is what happens when all of you bitch and whine in a long "tales of the duty finder" thread, prompting the devs to feel like they need to do something about it. To which they poorly implement, which leads to more complaining. So thanks a lot, you "great community".

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So you blame people who complain about these "you don't pay my sub" players that we have this mentor system? Good joke.

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Originally Posted by Jas710

The NN mentor system is what happens when all of you bitch and whine in a long "tales of the duty finder" thread, prompting the devs to feel like they need to do something about it. To which they poorly implement, which leads to more complaining. So thanks a lot, you "great community".

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So it sounds like youre saying the mentor system(which most people agree needs improvement) is what we get when we voice concerns and the devs poorly implement a solution to a problem(which definitely exists, though the scope of it could be debated). Which is then our fault because we suck?

And really, have you read any of that Tales thread? The most recent few hundred pages consist of people sharing stories of runs(good, bad and head scratching), blowing off steam, and encouraging each other/giving advice. Sharing your pain/joy/confusion with the community isnt automatically a bad thing. It can be good for a laugh to read someones story of grouping with a bard that only did single target attacks on aoe pulls and aoe attacks on bosses, or a scholar who forgot to summon their fairy then complained after a wipe that the group was too hard to heal. And reading some of the stories about people going out of their way to help and advise each other can help remind you that not only are there people behind those other avatars, but a lot of them are nice people who just want everything to go well.

I've heard of this channel in game but I don't know how to get into it. There are a lot of things I've had trouble figuring out since returning to game a few days ago and it would have been nice to be able to ask. It seems to me that needing an invite to it is a bit hard on the true newbie who doesn't know anyone yet. People who know someone who can invite them already have a resource but the people who need help the most are left in the dark... not understanding the logic of that rule.

I was in the NN for a while as a Mentor. I left when the Mentors would do nothing but talk about high end content and/or spoilers. That's not mentoring. Newbies would be lost in the shuffle.

It was a fantastic idea, but the fact anyone can be a Mentor leaves a giant problem of moderation.

I love helping newbies and still do whenever I can, just not in NN which is a shame. But I keep my crown on and hope some newbies will approach with questions. Some do. That's all I can hope for.

To join, ensure your "new adventurer" status is on and ask any mentor to invite you. You can perform a player search to get a list of mentors to contact one. It's designed this way to prevent real money trade bots from flooding the channel with advertisements.

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Originally Posted by Jenarie

There are a lot of things I've had trouble figuring out since returning to game a few days ago and it would have been nice to be able to ask.

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You can also ask here on the forums. Its not the same as getting in-game advice, but there are plenty of people who watch this board and some of them probly have the answers to any game related questions.

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Originally Posted by brogettoku

the novice network is especially bad when you ask a question and are told to google it, the whole mentor/newb system is flawed anyway, mentors can get good ratings and maintain their status simply from having friends who vote them up all the time which is exactly how mentors are there in the first place, they aren't exactly there because they want to help but because they want the prestige (read - shiny icons) it comes with

i literally left the NN today because i was told to google

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Sometimes it is indefensible but, sometimes youre going to be told to google something purely on principle of no one knows off hand. A mentor is not going to remember every single detail of the beginning of a realm reborn or all of the side quests that give you stuff.

I've told people to read their tool tips before too. Mostly because I've been asked what an ability does before and a Mentor is not supposed to be a substitute for bare minimum reading

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Originally Posted by brogettoku

Being a mentor should be like a part time job. If you want to be called a mentor then it should come with much more responsibility.

You can't sign on to help new people on a regular schedule? You can't be a mentor. But those that do, should get rewarded for it aka paid.

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Then mentor status should come with a free sub at the very least. Playing a video game shouldn't be treated like a job. Get over yourself.

Guess i can look forward to rocking the boat and ruining a few mentors days. - Cause I WILL NOT Tolerate people who tell newbies to "google it". (I've already got one mentor in serious trouble for attitude/behavior in a dungeon)

it's one thing if the answer is complex...but that's just an insult.

This game isn't very newbie friendly as someone whose only been at it for 4-5 months. - Already got a growing friends list for that reason alone by randomly helping sprouts out.

Mentor system is in dire need of a overhaul to be sure.

Speak up...say something...don't tolerate it. Mentors shouldn't be there abusing the benefit...mentors should be mentoring. Period.

As someone who mentors me in-game said "Mentors should turn the flag off if they don't like helping newbies"
-Neph

What I always wanted in the mentor network is that a novice would pose a question, and it would get sent to a mentor who is "clocked in". Kind of like a customer service chat, they would then chat until the issue is resolved, where the novice could then rate the mentor on how helpful they were. The rating could then work like a commendation system.

If the mentor does not know the answer or is unable to help, they can choose to pass the question on to another mentor.

If the mentor does not accept the "call" within 30 seconds or a minute, then it get passed on to another mentor. (to help with afk-ers)

Those mentors who have a negative rating, or perhaps a low percentage, will lose their mentorship.

I like the one-on-one interactions better than this glorified world chat we have now.

Edit: That being said, Hyperion actually has a decent NN. When someone asks a question it is answered, mentors help with content, and if anyone says a story spoiler or seems like they are going to, they are quickly told that spoilers are not allowed in this channel and why. Mentors also offer to chat with them about the story in /tell.
However, there are a few unhelpful, "troll" mentors that tend to ruin the channel for novices.

"I understand not having a system that is a bad rating to go along with the commendations, since new players might get unfairly judged.

But if you are a mentor I think it should really be an option".[/QUOTE]

I Agree!!

I once got an invite to the NN, although I'm not sure if it was due to an absence or what? I don't think I'm a mentor "if he doesn't know he isn't-probably", I declined it thinking to myself "psh I ain't no sprout"-no offense, but after reading this...Is there a way I can get invited back in? Man, I would help all the sprouts grow into strong oak trees! lol, and I'd definitely go against the elitist waive. No I don't do savage, or extremes, but I can offer a whole can and a half of worms to provide information to the starving baby birds :) "I mean that in a nice way!"

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Sometimes it is indefensible but, sometimes youre going to be told to google something purely on principle of no one knows off hand. A mentor is not going to remember every single detail of the beginning of a realm reborn or all of the side quests that give you stuff.

I've told people to read their tool tips before too. Mostly because I've been asked what an ability does before and a Mentor is not supposed to be a substitute for bare minimum reading

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Basically this. I only tell people to go to certain websites, one if theyre completely new and dont want to keep asking people for help (some really dont like that), or if I cannot answer the question for them, and I can't look it up for them at the moment (in a dungeon or something). I can remember alot of things, but some of the old content gets shaky.

If you ask simple questions, except simple answers. Apart from Google, there are wikis like gamerescape where you can find info.

As I understand it, if you decline returner status and are no longer eligible to be a new adventurer, that only leaves becoming a mentor (see The Smith in the adventurer's guilds) as a way to access the channel.