My friend told me not to bother with Dark Knight

I've been playing this game on and off for two years as a Paladin. But I have always wanted to be a Dark Knight.

A few nights ago a good friend of mine was online. I know this guy well as we played Street Fighter 4 together and he is a top player in that game.
In this game he is a level 70 Dark Knight.

I told him that I now have less than 20 main story quests to do before I can finally achieve my dream to become a Dark Knight.

He said to me not to bother. That the class was butchered in 4.0.

He says the other tanks got buffed and Dark Knight didn't. He said tiers don't matter in fighting games because individual skill is more important but in MMOs he said the numbers are everything.

Is Dark Knight really not worth it? I will be so upset if I can't play this class after wanting it for so long.

DRK is fine.

If he's specifically talking about a tier list, then atm it's PLD >> DRK => WAR. So PLD is tippy top tier and DRK and WAR are a toss up, though generally people prefer DRK over WAR since it brings utility in Blackest Night (which, tbf, is pretty strong). If you plan on raiding, then you're fine there. If you don't plan on raiding, tier lists don't matter at all.

It mainly comes down to if you have fun with the job. If you end up enjoying it then stick with it.

If u plan on raiding at endgame, I've seen a lot of statics using Dark Knight main tanks and PLD as off tanks. Atm with warriors having no utility so they normally aren't wanted.
But choose what you like or want.
P.S. DRK can do more dps than a PLD if used right

Metas change so you shouldn't level or play a class solely based on it. It's possible that by the time you get to the point where it would actually make a difference as a lv70 PLD tank, the game could have already shifted to where a different tanking class is on top. Plus, it sounds like you're trying to race to the current end game content where it would actually matter what tank you are, so you should definitely play whatever class you want to.

I play DRK and I love it besides some obvious things they need to change like more CDs and dps boost...It's fine and I use DRK in savage and had zero issues

The job has definite problems that need fixing, but your friend sounds more like he is just upset by how the job plays, which is incredibly subjective in terms of enjoyment.

The job is fine. It's not perfect, but to me it sounds like your friend doesn't really know what he's talking about in this instance.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

The job has definite problems that need fixing, but your friend sounds more like he is just upset by how the job plays, which is incredibly subjective in terms of enjoyment.

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Originally Posted by Nabian

The job is fine. It's not perfect, but to me it sounds like your friend doesn't really know what he's talking about in this instance.

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So when he says numbers are everything. Any idea what exactly he meant by that? Is it something to do with rotations?

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Originally Posted by DarkChild

So when he says numbers are everything. Any idea what exactly he meant by that? Is it something to do with rotations?

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Right now tanks deal roughly the same damage in an actual PvE encounter. The problem is that PLD offers equivalent damage and yet brings more to the raid than WAR and DRK combined, in terms of utility. All this being said, DRK and WAR have more punishing rotations than PLD, and both are heavily dependent on uptime, whereas PLD has a casting burst that can be used at range, and a significant portion of their DPS is DoT based and thus is not effected by melee uptime.

The problems with DRK right now are mostly that of personal mitigation.

Based on the utility that PLD offers, DRK ought to deal more damage, and WAR even more than that. But the community very oddly (in my opinion at least) seems to be settling on the idea that the tanks all dealing roughly equivalent damage is okay, and that DRK and WAR should just be given utility to compensate. The issue here is that adding utility is harder than buffing DPS (adding whole new abilities or effects to existing abilities is harder than simply buffing potencies/percentages), so people have decided that the problem that would be easily fixed is not actually a problem, and the thing that would be harder to fix is now what needs looking at. Doesn't make much sense to me, but that seems to be the growing consensus.

In all likelihood, your friend is referring to dummy parses, in which DRK is notably behind. this changes somewhat in actual encounters where TBN can be used, but this brings up another issue with DRK in that even when optimizing TBN and DA usage, the payoff is extremely small relative to someone who didn't do any of that and just let their cat roll around on the keyboard.

If your friend is referring to DRK's lower DPS, he's not wrong, not entirely anyway. My initial comment was a reaction to his description of the job as "butchered" which I don't believe is wholly the case. If anything I'd describe their mitigation as being more butchered than their DPS. He's also not entirely wrong that the other tanks got buffed and DRK didn't, this is mostly true. PLD absolutely got buffed to Valhalla and beyond, and WAR (sort of) got buffed in the sense that they do more damage at 70 with their new rotation than they can do at 70 using the old rotation. DRK's can't even use their old rotation if they wanted to.

In any case, if you want to play the job and find that you enjoy it, his words don't mean anything, and you should play it anyway. The community backlash to DRK's current design is from people that have been playing the job for years who are in a position to see that the job did not improve at all from 60-70 and if anything got worse. But for someone just starting to play the job, these talking-points needn't mean much.

DRK did in fact get no love in 4.x, and it only makes it worse in that people keep saying stuff like "DRK is fine" when they really don't know what they're talking about. DRK's toolkit is greatly flawed compared to the other two tanks and makes up for it by being extremely situational, that being magical damage. DRK needs enemies to perform magical damage tank busters to be on par with the other two tanks, and while this happens more often then not, it does not always happen. That being said, it still falls short in DPS.

I wouldn't say not to bother entirely because there is the hope and chance that one day they actually give DRK some attention and care into having a strong identity of its own. For now, it's simply got the most undertuned ultimate CD, most undertuned -30% CD, the poorest passive mitigation, weakest self-healing, most boring rotation, and lowest DPS.

WAR has a better ultimate CD they can use every 3 minutes (literally on same CD timer as WHM's benediction) as opposed to DRK's 5 minutes, better self-healing, and higher DPS. DRK has a 10% HP shield it can give other players. While this is strong, it simply isn't *that* strong compared to what WAR brings when in the hands of a capable player. On par would be the closest you could argue.

As for PLD vs. DRK, that's just a joke. PLD is massively stronger than both tanks combined right now.

They've made this tier "viable" for all tanks by making the fights really easy in comparison to previous raids.

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Originally Posted by DWolfwood

DRK's toolkit is greatly flawed compared to the other two tanks and makes up for it by being extremely situational, that being magical damage.

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DRK has exactly one magical CD while WAR has exactly one physical CD. The only fully universal mitigation tank is PLD, which fits with the "king of mitigation" archetype.

Level DRK to 70. Even if you don't like the gameplay, it arguably has the single best job storyline/lore in the entire game, and it is one of the few story segments where the WoL's individuality and personality gets explored, instead of being treated as a simple PoV character. It also touches on some really plot important character interactions, to the point where it's worth playing through regardless of your preferred job.

DRK in SB feels familiar, yet different. It retains HW's fast-paced, free-form combat, except with more of a focus on resource management. It rewards quick thinking and understanding first principles over simply memorising rotations. Defensively, it's the only tank where it feels like you're always tanking, regardless of whether you're MT or OT. The Blackest Night lets you smooth out the damage on a weaker tank who doesn't quite understand cleave timings, secretly assisting from the sidelines and launching into devastating counterattacks whenever your shield shatters.

In terms of difficulty, the SB changes have made an admirable attempt at making DRK's accessibility at the lowest levels more on par with PLD and WAR (although it's still really the only tank where you can get locked out of tank stance if you mismanage your resources). Unfortunately, there's an added layer of complexity compared to HW if you want to play DRK well. There are a lot of subtle interactions between the new abilities, and even slight adjustments seem to change around our dps priorities significantly on what seems to be a weekly basis. I wonder if the devs even have the interplay between the new actions completely figured out.

I think a lot of frustration over the job comes from the fact that you're investing a lot of additional effort and and taking on greater risks to produce results which, at best, are just barely on par with the other two tanks. But this is also an MMO, and accessibility is important. It's a niche playstyle, but if you're looking for a challenge, it's there.

"In your darkest hour, in the blackest night... think of me... and I will be with you."

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(although it's still really the only tank where you can get locked out of tank stance if you mismanage your resources)

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Not quite so. DRK can overspend mana and don't have it for Grit. PLD spend all mana in magical phase and can be unable to turn on ShO right after it (it costs mp to activate). Luckily, we don't need tanks stance for swapping anymore.

True enough. Shield Oath costs 600 MP. HS spam from full leaves you at about 444 MP. One tick of MP gives you 141 MP. Riot Blade gives you 600 MP. You're then forced to choose between one Riot Blade or going afk for six seconds. That's about a 5 second window once every minute.

Some say, they like the new DRK. What's true however, is that gameplay drasticaly changed.


- Dark Arts became a spaming Utility.
- Mana Management became somewhat harder.
- The new gauge is, compared to other classes, straight forward and simple.
- he lost his old trademark skills while the new Trademark skill is saved for lvl70.

So there are a lot of disapointed players who prefered the old playstyle over the new one. however, since the OP doesnt know the old DRK I don't see a Problem why he shouldn't like the new one.

Your friend sounds like a buzzkill. Perhaps you need new friends.

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Originally Posted by Talec

Some say, they like the new DRK.

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I like what we got, I'm not a fan of some of our losses (Third combo and Scourge), but in the end, I still think the job is still very fun to play.

Issue with DRK is that they didn't gain anything new this round outside of their LV 70 skill, the blackest Night. They just got their 1-60 skill set nerfed, only to regain a portion of it through the 61-70 skill set.

As for functionally...

It's probably going to be the go to co-tank for raids due to it having The Blackest Night (20% shield on itself or 10% on other people).

and I feel with the new update to Quietus, it's possibly the best tank for dungeons due to having re-obtained the ability to DA+Abyssal drain to deal damage and at the same time recover it's HP, during large pulls.

Is it the best tank right now overall? No.
Does that mean you should not level it and enjoy it? No.

While the Job needs major re-work, it's still playable and probably will be desired during raids when they need the limit break bar to fill due to the small utility of TBN and any tank can run dungeons, but I personally think DRK is the best for the dungeons due to it being the only tank to retain the ability to push out AoE damage while at the same time curing itself consistently.


tldr;
Don't listen to your friend. While Drk needs major re-working, it's still playable in all content

You don't build a class around one skill which is what they did with Dark Knight. It's kinda pathetic really. It definitely doesn't feel as fun or complex as it used to be. Feels really clunky to be honest and lost a lot of fun stuff you could do.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

You don't build a class around one skill which is what they did with Dark Knight.

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I feel that DRK always had this kind of problem of being designed for the level cap. Everytime I used DRK in synced content, I felt I was missing something crucila in my toolkit....kinda like playing AST below level 30 :p

Don't forget that the world first did use a DRK in there static.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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Its possible to accept that a job is very flawed and still find it fun.

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Originally Posted by DarkChild

A few nights ago a good friend of mine was online. I know this guy well as we played Street Fighter 4 together and he is a top player in that game.

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Lol. Entirely different genres/devs/everything. What else is he good at, minesweeper?

If someone tells you to not do what you enjoy doing, get rid of the person. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.

I have a 70 DRK. It plays fine. It's not without its problems, but who cares?

Play what you want, don't let others talk you out of it.

Not to be rude, but really? Play it your self and judge it. It's a good job, and everyone has their perspectives. If they can't play it doesn't mean you will have the same experience.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

DRK has exactly one magical CD while WAR has exactly one physical CD. The only fully universal mitigation tank is PLD, which fits with the "king of mitigation" archetype.

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WAR has better CD timers though. They can have nearly all their CDs up for every tank buster, not to mention being able to use Holmgang more often.

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Originally Posted by DarkChild

He said to me not to bother. That the class was butchered in 4.0.

He says the other tanks got buffed and Dark Knight didn't. He said tiers don't matter in fighting games because individual skill is more important but in MMOs he said the numbers are everything.

Is Dark Knight really not worth it? I will be so upset if I can't play this class after wanting it for so long.

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Here is my little rant that was made by me mains DRK but is currently going to be maining PLD until game time runs out... DRK is that bad for me...

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Not to be rude, but really? Play it your self and judge it. It's a good job, and everyone has their perspectives. If they can't play it doesn't mean you will have the same experience.

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It's not rude, it's absolutely justified, and correct.

If a person's opinion is to completely write off an entire job and actively seeks to bar players from even attempting it, then I feel that person isn't remotely qualified to give advice in the first place.

...Especially when the reason really just boils down to "It's different, I don't like it, so it's bad."


You're free to have personal opinions and grievances, but do NOT project them onto others seeking honest advice. I'm even more disappointed in this "friend" because they actively sought to tear down your enjoyment. You were looking forward to playing DRK and this person actually went out of their way to assault that? The fluff is up with that?

How DARE my friends look forward to something and might ACTUALLY have FUN in a GAME. I didn't have fun!
Good grief...

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

If a person's opinion is to completely write off an entire job and actively seeks to bar players from even attempting it, then I feel that person isn't remotely qualified to give advice in the first place.

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Well, if we take DRK and FFXIV out of this equation, there are certainly situations where someone might say something like this to keep a friend from wasting their time leveling/gearing up an undesirable job. Not saying it's right or wrong in this case, or any other, just a different perspective to consider.

In the situation of DRK and FFXIV, the job is not so broken as to be undesirable perhaps except by the upper echelon of raiders, but even then wasn't the world first group PLD/DRK? So yea, quite the opposite of being undesirable. If I had to guess, I'd say that maybe your friend was trying to get you to stay as PLD since they are obscenely OP right now compared to both DRK and WAR.

No, DRK is okay. the job is the meta with PLD and with last patch they even buffed it.

As a general rule: 90% of time someone says something is "complete trash" it probably is just slightly below what they would probably describe as "God" or "OP". (DRK and PLD respectively)

Some updated proofs: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme.../405_tank_dps/

And guess what is one of the DRK niches? Magic defence and magic attacks happens to be all over the places in Omega Savage

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

You don't build a class around one skill which is what they did with Dark Knight. It's kinda pathetic really. It definitely doesn't feel as fun or complex as it used to be. Feels really clunky to be honest and lost a lot of fun stuff you could do.

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...Of all the things I can say about 4.0 DRK, "clunky" is the absolute last thing I can think of. They're incredibly straightforward and easy to get really good damage with, just with a flawed focus around only having answers for tankbusters and not passive mitigation.

That said, I still have tons of fun with them at 70 because their new toolkit is so offense oriented, like WAR used to be. Use a defensive shield to get meter to dunk things with a Bloodspiller, or use Quietus to get more MP, to keep nuking things and get more HP. I dig it.

WAR prior to the patch was clunky. SMN is clunky. DRG is clunky. DRK, IMO, doesn't fit that term.

All the tanks are "fine" now in that they are functional and all are capable of clearing content. @OP You can play any tank without worry because nothing stays the same and there should always be adjustments should a job ever be weaker or undesirable. Choose by gameplay and aesthetics first and foremost imo since that more or less determines what you find fun for the most part. If you were to play this game competitively you'd be playing more than one class anyways.

The only issue is that the other tanks that aren't PLD are frankly only brought because of LB penalty rather then on their own merits. So purely because of the fact that you get punished(if only slightly) for stacking jobs, PLD/PLD would've been a disgusting reality.

At the very least in 3.0 WAR/WAR wasn't perfect because DRK/WAR atleast brought with it Reprisal/Delirium and a sick magical mitigation kit for a minuscule overall DPS "lost" (0-5%) and less ability to cheese burst DPS check phases of which there were hardly any except for maybe A3S.

Sure, World First groups have completed with DRK/PLD or WAR/PLD. But ask any of them if they could bring double PLD with no penalty and I assure you they would have done so without a second thought.

PLD is so much more broken then 3.0 WAR ever was, but not because of it's own design, but rather how they completely dwarf the other two tanks in comparison.

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Originally Posted by DarkChild

He said tiers don't matter in fighting games because individual skill is more important but in MMOs he said the numbers are everything.

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That here is laughable and demonstrates your friend is clueless.
Tiers don't matter in fighting games ? Really ? Maybe in the lower levels of play but that couldn't be more false in high level play. Besides he's comparing pvp to pve, and in the latter DRK is perfectly viable and even favored by some top groups in savage.

As for DRK gameplay, it's true that the job only really comes together at 70 and that we lack mitigation.
It has changed and those who can't adapt or dislike it will claim it's braindead and butchered, but it's probably the tank with the highest skill ceiling now.
However, that ceiling, while high, isn't rewarding enough and a fantastic DRK player will barely do more than an average one. Also, balance changes are heavily affecting our priorities and how TBN should be used.

DRK right now needs more mitigation (buff Shadow Wall, maybe add some physical mitigation to Dark Mind), TBN should maybe gain like 1 more second of duration, and Bloodspiller needs a heavy buff to cement it as our big hitter so that TBN is always worth using (skilled play is rewarded, and you don't have a situation where TBN is a dps loss so it doesn't feel good to use). I'd propose something like Bloodspiller applying Scourge with an additional effect that makes it so subsequent Bloodspillers deal bonus damage and refresh it (maybe nerf other potencies accordingly so that we're not broken).

Overall, DRK is still a viable and fun job. PLD is a bit ahead of both DRK and WAR but you can still clear everything with them fine. Play what you find the most fun.

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No, DRK is okay. the job is the meta with PLD and with last patch they even buffed it.

As a general rule: 90% of time someone says something is "complete trash" it probably is just slightly below what they would probably describe as "God" or "OP". (DRK and PLD respectively)

Some updated proofs: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme.../405_tank_dps/

And guess what is one of the DRK niches? Magic defence and magic attacks happens to be all over the places in Omega Savage

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Overall, Keep in mind that DRK will often need 3ogcd to make use of his "ability to mitigate magical tankbuster". Either you pop a non Dark arted Dark mind, either you need to DA/DM + TBN before the tank buster, delaying your GCD attacks.

Because TBN will allways be stronger than DA against magical Tank buster as an OGCD since it's 20% of our max HP, versus an increase from 15 to 30% magical mitigation. The niche of "strong against magic" is quite restrictive here

That's clunky, weaving 3 ogcd for a tank buster and burning 50% of our MP. Or either you use a non Dark arkted Dark Mind and well, 15% reduction on top of TBN, is that such a big deal ?

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Originally Posted by Greven

No, DRK is okay. the job is the meta with PLD and with last patch they even buffed it.

As a general rule: 90% of time someone says something is "complete trash" it probably is just slightly below what they would probably describe as "God" or "OP". (DRK and PLD respectively)

Some updated proofs: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme.../405_tank_dps/

And guess what is one of the DRK niches? Magic defence and magic attacks happens to be all over the places in Omega Savage

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It's no longer its niche. PLD is now stronger in magic mitigation than DRK, while being just as strong in physical mitigation and having other very obvious advantages in both utility and damage departments.

DRK is viable, it's "okay", but it doesn't mean that it needs no fix whatsoever. It has glaring issues right now just like WAR and there are plenty of people in plenty of threads explaining why so don't spread misinformation. Just having roughly the same DPS numbers on dummies doesn't mean that tanks are balanced at all.

And to OP, what your friend told you makes no sense. Tier lists are completely meaningless in MMOs, especially in XIV since the imbalance isn't game-breaking at all. Every job can still clear all content in the game, it's just that some are less powerful than others. Tier lists only mean something if you want to clear raids the fastest in the world. However, in fighting games, tier lists ARE very important in competitive level. You generally cannot beat an opponent using a top-tier character with a low-tier character if you're both at a competitive level. So he got it completely reversed in his head.

DRK is really fun to play at max level, and it is a viable job even if it needs some love. And SE is most likely gonna do something about that in future patches, they want balance as much as we want, and with the number of feedbacks considering DRK and WAR right now, they will do something.

Okay thanks for all the advise everyone. I'm going to play the class anyway and just hope for the best! I just have 10 story quests left to go!