Regarding Dragoon difficulty

I read a lot of complaints about DRG being the most difficult melee dps in the game, thing that would mke it the worst risk-reward job. IMHO, DRG deserves its current DPS due to being the easiest melee dps in the game, and we have to deal with it. Playing DRG is basically repeating the same 2 combos over and over again, with 3 major buffs to keep track of. Only 3 positionals, the rest is all OGCD, and a timer which suffers the poor design choice behind the whole DRG gauge. The fact is, the class needs another rework. Playing DRG feels near braindead, it's the easiest job in the game for endgame content and pays that price with low DPS.

Arguable on easiest, I do think they deserve their dmg, which is NOT low, A DRG dps is very dependant on the player because even though the execution is easy on paper, doing it in an actual fight and not missing procs, positionals and aligning everything is another story.
I don't know how you have a say on it though because you're a lv57 DRG; Clearly a troll post, good bait tho.

You're mistaken. Dragoon is not the most difficult DPS in the game, it's the most PUNISHING. No DPS is "hard" to play. Rather, some DPS are more forgiving of mistakes and others are less forgiving.

Red mage is an example of an extremely forgiving job. You can mess your balance gauge up and still be really top tier DPS. Your worst mistake is maybe accidentally wasting a Dualcast proc on a Jolt II, or choosing the wrong Holy/Flare finisher and missing your Ver proc, not a big deal. During a long phase transition, Red Mage maintains their gauge, as there's no time limit nor decay on their accrued black mana and white mana. Dragoon is much more punishing and even when played perfectly, their damage is far lower than Red Mage. Even when making no mistakes, the current battles force Dragoon to lose their job gauge, where every other DPS keeps their gauge. Even Monks lose only their GL but not their Chakras (and GL3 can be gotten in 3 GCDs with Perfect Balance). Dragoon loses BOTH their eyes AND their BotD timer. For example, unlike Red Mage who keeps their mana gauge unless they spend it or die, Dragoon accrues Dragon Eyes from using Mirage Dive. It takes 4 eyes to enter Life of the Dragon, but the gauge and your eyes will vanish if the duration isn't extended within the time frame. That said, failing a mechanic and being petrified, dying, or long phase transitions force Dragoon to lose their gauge and any accrued eyes. If a Dragoon makes a mistake and uses Geirskogul too early, their Life of the Dragon phase is now delayed by 35 seconds. During Lakshmi or Susano's Ultimates, Dragoon loses their eyes and BotD and now it's a MINIMUM of 80 seconds before they can get Life of the Dragon again. Whereas a RDM keeps their stored Mana, a SAM keeps their stored Kenki, a MNK keeps their stored Chakra, a NIN keeps their stored Ninki. None of the resources that Dragoon accrues using their rotation is maintained, unlike EVERY other DPS.

Again, there is no "hard/easy" DPS, only punishing/less punishing. You would think a more punishing job like Dragoon would have higher DPS since upkeeping their job gauge is extremely stressful and requires precise maintenance and planning ahead whereas RDM is a no-brainer and even if they mess up, they can correct it on their next cast. RDM does not have the stress of "if the boss becomes untargetable I'm going to lose the 74/76 mana I've stored and have to start again!". That being said, Dragoon's overall DPS is quite low considering the punishability of their job gauge relative to the mechanics of current fights.

go play the class at max level and come back and talk. Lets not act like Dark Knight is rocket science.

2013 called and wants its tired arguments back. Sheesh.

https://image.noelshack.com/minis/20...482253-lol.png

yep yep yep

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

I read a lot of complaints about DRG being the most difficult melee dps in the game, thing that would mke it the worst risk-reward job. IMHO, DRG deserves its current DPS due to being the easiest melee dps in the game, and we have to deal with it. Playing DRG is basically repeating the same 2 combos over and over again, with 3 major buffs to keep track of. Only 3 positionals, the rest is all OGCD, and a timer which suffers the poor design choice behind the whole DRG gauge. The fact is, the class needs another rework. Playing DRG feels near braindead, it's the easiest job in the game for endgame content and pays that price with low DPS.

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Git Gud has rarely been this appropriate.

PSSSt, you got 4 positionals.

You don't have a single DPS job to 70, let alone a DRG. Your opinion on the matter is absolutely worthless.

Originally I thought drg would be too easy from info in the media tour, which didn't change too much at release. The hope was that encounters would be difficult and varied enough to make up for this design choice, and happily they are decent enough to keep things very interesting. With bosses doing their best impressions of tops during Hanukkah, hitting our positions and keeping tabs of our buff windows while avoiding mechanics is fun and interesting enough. I don't feel we are too easy any more.

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Originally Posted by knotwrite

You don't have a single DPS job to 70, let alone a DRG. Your opinion on the matter is absolutely worthless.

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just like a lot of opinions on these forum
people have no clue what they talking about , not just that when they proven wrong they still go on with the discussion

Sincerely, I don't understand your reactions. The fact that I didn't bring DRG up to 70 is directly tied with my current thoughts on the job. I play everyday with dragoons, and keep an eye on them. I read patch notes and watch theorycrafting/rotations videos to keep myself informed. I follow the raid scene to get to know their thoughts on classes. I know that on the internet when you say something true and inconvenient you get a lot of hate, but this is my opinion, as I stated in the opening post. I hear a lot of DRGs complaining about how the job is the most difficult and complicated in comparison to damage output, while IMHO is definitely not. Jonny pointed out that the job is punishing, and he has a point. But how simple is the rotation? That's the real problem of DRG. They can't buff it any further, because it's so simple to play it that every possible change would make it the deadliest job with the lowest effort

Anyone can go through the rotation, just like any of the other changes. I don't know how a Dark Knight of all things is complaining about the complexity of another job being too 'simple', but aligning cooldowns with outgoing raid utility while optimizing skill timing for maximum output is in fact difficult for some. The lack of reward for the class does make this an issue, as the payoff is Not comparable to that of the skill ceiling. Nobody cares about the skill floor of a class, because it's irellevent in proper class comparison.

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Originally Posted by Vincent_Mateus

Anyone can go through the rotation, just like any of the other changes. I don't know how a Dark Knight of all things is complaining about the complexity of another job being too 'simple', but aligning cooldowns with outgoing raid utility while optimizing skill timing for maximum output is in fact difficult for some. The lack of reward for the class does make this an issue, as the payoff is Not comparable to that of the skill ceiling. Nobody cares about the skill floor of a class, because it's irellevent in proper class comparison.

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I'm not complaining about DRG, I'm complaining about Dragoons who complain
I'm not saying DRG is stupid simple, I'm saying it is "I put something on netflix while playing" simple

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

I'm not complaining about DRG, I'm complaining about Dragoons who complain
I'm not saying DRG is stupid simple, I'm saying it is "I put something on netflix while playing" simple

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I think we've got to the bottom of this mystery.

I think people are saying that you can do all the theory crafting in the universe, watch every video known to man and read every guide available but it means jack and squat unless you've played the job at it's max level and truly see how the skills are supposed to weave. If you haven't experienced it for yourself you really can't have much of a say can you?

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Originally Posted by DJMau

I think people are saying that you can do all the theory crafting in the universe, watch every video known to man and read every guide available but it means jack and squat unless you've played the job at it's max level and truly see how the skills are supposed to weave. If you haven't experienced it for yourself you really can't have much of a say can you?

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From a psychological point of view is interesting how some of you are more focused in trying to figure out what I can and can't say and who I am instead of giving your thoughts on the matter. Imagine if my public profile was a DRG 70. How would this topic be?

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

From a psychological point of view is interesting how some of you are more focused in trying to figure out what I can and can't say and who I am instead of giving your thoughts on the matter. Imagine if my public profile was a DRG 70. How would this topic be?

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You're certainly welcome to share any and all terrible takes on here, but you didn't even have your facts right and now you're surprised people don;t think you have credibility.

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

From a psychological point of view is interesting how some of you are more focused in trying to figure out what I can and can't say and who I am instead of giving your thoughts on the matter. Imagine if my public profile was a DRG 70. How would this topic be?

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You would know that DRG have 3 combos used for different situations, 4 positionals, and more than 3 buffs to pay attention to.

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

I don't ever play Dragoon at 70, but when I play it at 57 it's "Netflix simple"

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Any job is netflix simple if you're bad tbh

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

From a psychological point of view is interesting how some of you are more focused in trying to figure out what I can and can't say and who I am instead of giving your thoughts on the matter. Imagine if my public profile was a DRG 70. How would this topic be?

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Well, if you look at it like that, you kinda told people they shouldn't complain because DRG deserves to have low DPS with how braindead simple it is. You have to agree though that people have a valid point when they say you have no practical experience comparing the jobs. Think of it like this: if all the boxers in the world would be capable by just shadowboxing, building muscle and seeing their comrades fight, would that automatically make them a capable boxer? Would you know how it's like to experience that 0.1s of realisation you're getting hit with a counter in the face and how it may paralyze you if you'd never actually experienced it? Of course Dragoons aren't boxers, but I hope you get that there is the finer details of practical experience you're missing out on, the actual 'feel' of playing the class at lv 70 so to speak. People just don't like being told they do or don't deserve something from someone who hasn't actually experienced said thing.

I get where you're coming from though. I, who mained DRG entirely through HW, was also put off by the changes as I immediately saw the front burst we used to have would be gone and have leveled my other DPS instead (loving SAM and NIN atm), however, I wouldn't dare telling people they deserve their low dps because I haven't gotten DRG to 70 yet. It's on my to-do list though, after getting my lv 68 RDM to 70. Or maybe I'll lv PLD instead first, not sure yet.

Honestly, all jobs are simple two combo rotations at this point, yet DRG is the most punishing of all of them. We have 4 positionals but in an 11 GCD rotation we have 6 of them. The only class worse than that is monk, however monks potency loses if they miss are much less severe. You miss a HT that's 45% potency reduction. You miss a WT or FC that's a 31% potency reduction. Most of monks potency reductions for missed positional are in the 20% range.

The other point that the OP fails to realize is the massive amt of oGCDs you have to line up just right so you aren't sitting on your LoTD.

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

it's the easiest job in the game for endgame content and pays that price with low DPS.

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how does this logic even make sense? SAM and RDM are arguably the easiest/least punishing yet are miles ahead of DRG in dps.

Even with that in mind, the 'easiness' isn't due to the job or rotation itself*, but how much it is punished and how easily it can recover from mechanics and mistakes. Only secondly to that can you take into account the complexity of the rotation, and how distracting it ends up being or how much mental space it takes - that is a form of resource management, albeit not a very visible one.

*If the rotation is genuinely difficult, the job is badly designed as you end up fighting your own job rather than the boss.

As a Dragoon myself, I concur that the rotation is braindead easy.

It's a good thing it's pretty simple to flow through now that the muscle memory is kicking in. It lets me focus on the incoming mechanics of a boss fight rather than having to keep a constant eye on the binds.

That being said though, losing eyes while building up to LotD really sucks. Would like it if DRG got a buff do do more damage while in LotD or just extended LotD a finite number of times with Mirage Dive to make the mechanic a bit more rewarding. You're literally spending 60-80 seconds building stacks to gain 960 potency every 1:30 roughly.

If you compare how much potency you gain from a 3 Nastrond LotD (960) vs the 1:30ish time you are DPSing building LotD and then using it, it gets pretty close to 18,000 potency over that period of time. So you can gain a 5% increase for playing DRG right.

DPS logs check out about 4-6% of total damage is from Nastrond.

Give me back 30% Blood For Blood. XD

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Originally Posted by CuragaCura

As a Dragoon myself, I concur that the rotation is braindead easy.

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That's all rotations, because if it weren't, then it wouldn't be a rotation.

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

From a psychological point of view is interesting how some of you are more focused in trying to figure out what I can and can't say and who I am instead of giving your thoughts on the matter. Imagine if my public profile was a DRG 70. How would this topic be?

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Than people would think you would at least know what you are talking about - but talking about issues you don't experienced yourself yet, makes your opinion a bit worthless because theory and practice are 2 different things escpecially in endgame. And like we see you make mistakes in your statement -> which proves that you are still unexperienced in Drg or Melees at all.

If anything they need to allow the DRG to keep their eyes in some way or form since if they can't get LotD off, that means their burst is either A) Delayed, or B) Lost due to timer running out.

I have a proposal however; and it's not tied to combo actions. Even with a 20s Blood of the Dragon, you can still lose your eyes in Susano. To stop things like this, perhaps Yoshi-P should consider letting the eyes be charges in a sense?

Every Jump grants a charge to your Job Gauge, and stays there. Mirage Dive will cost 1 Eye, while Life of the Dragon should cost 3. This would mean that every minute, DRG would be able to get off Life of the Dragon and match other Melee DPS in resource management. It would also make the job a tad more forgiving in terms of damage since I don't see many DRGs ever get the chance to Nastrond on a boss due to mechanics disabling them and making BotD fall off or death.

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

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Caprica it kinda feels like you are missing the point. I mean if you want the difficulty coming from the combos themselves... I find that to be somewhat silly. Other melees' combo is literally a 3 button press. DRG is a 6, sometimes 7 button press but I am not here to discuss combo length since that does not necessarily contribute to difficulty.

Difficulty can be attained through different means. When I was leveling MNK my main difficulty was getting used to which skills had which positional (basically lack of muscle memory). With NIN was memorizing the mudras and maintaining all the debuffs / buffs. DRG was taking notice of the jump distance and animation locks. However all of these can be overcome with practice. These were my beginner woes.

In fact every difficulty aspect can be overcome with experience in this game.

Now lets talk about decision making (which is also a way of increasing difficulty):
MNK has to decide how they want to branch off their combos since each step of their combo has 2 attacks you can choose from (personally i found this to be easily overcome with practice)
NIN has to choose which combo to pick to maintain a debuff / buff going (I still struggle with this because I don't play NIN consistently enough)
DRG has to decide which off global cooldown to use so they are lined up with your normal rotation for maximum dps output, more so than the previous 2.

What I mean with this is: DRG's difficulty comes not from the rotation itself but mostly from its abilities (aka off global cooldown).

Disclaimer: I am talking about how they felt during HW since I have yet to get all 3 to 70, but I will eventually get there.

There is one thing you are correct which is about the how punishing it is when you mess up on DRG and I hope you come to realize that something being punished hard for messing up / dying / etc is also a form of difficulty, the same way boss mechanics are a form of difficulty. All clumped together they create different levels of difficulty, which also depends on your playstyle. Some people struggle with having lots of buttons to press. Others no so much and more often than not people seem to forget that just because you have a natural talent (your gameplay favors a certain style) others might struggle with what you find "easy". I would appreciate if you took the time to have into consideration that other people may not have the same knack you do for certain classes. Claiming that something is easy is and always will be your opinion and not a fact. Coming here and decide on behalf of the entire DRG community that DRG is easy and their damage should be stay as it is is... arrogant to say the least and obviously people get upset when people who don't seem to have experienced the class at end game to come here and say what they percieve to be bad things. The community in general agrees that DRG is not in an okay spot and its damage is NOT okay. That also comes from comparing DRG to other DPS classes and I'm not just talking about numbers. My 2 biggest gripes with DRG atm actually come from fiddling with SAM and reading NIN skills + watching my static's NIN play.

I hope after this essay you may reflect on your words and possibly try a bit harder to see different points of view. It doesn't necessarily need to change your opinion but at least give you some insight on other people's perspectives. Cheers.