ELI5 What is wrong with SMN?

I recently picked up SMN having not played it since ARR; I wasn't much of a fan of it back then and ignored it during HW.

I've been enjoying the mechanics quite a lot, and it's damage seems respectable compared to PUGs of other classes and my previous DPS alt-class (MCH). The only mechanical issue of note that seemed to stand out to me was a lack of spammable hard AoE skills, particularly once the time-to-kill on a target drops below 15 seconds, they don't really have any good options besides spamming Ruin (Weaving in AoE's like painflare not withstanding). But if you're only 15 seconds from finishing the trash pull, then the trash pull is almost over anyway and shaving off a few seconds more doesn't change much.

But every time I hear SMN discussed all I'm hearing is 'ded class'. What exactly am I missing?

Off the top of my head:

Summoner requires much more effort than other jobs to produce lower results.

Death is extremely punishing to Summoner in ways other jobs don't have to deal with. Once dead, you lose every resource (Aetherflow, Dreadwyrm Aether, Aethertrail Attunement) you have to perform your actions effectively crippling us. God have mercy on your soul if both Aetherflow & Lucid Dreaming are both on CD after dying.

Our pet AI is still terrible, unresponsive and very fickle. If your egi moves at all while performing Enkindle, the CD is initiated but it doesn't go off. Demi Bahamut has a 100 yard range yet will trail behind us and glue themselves to our hip if we move just a little bit.

When you look at the damage Red Mage is able to do while also bringing utility, Summoner becomes an incredibly less attractive addition and more of a burden.

Just read this post. It sums up a lot of my grief.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...nd-here-s-why.

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Originally Posted by paradigmfellow

Just read this post. It sums up a lot of my grief.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...nd-here-s-why.

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I saw that list, but 4 of them are basically complaints that SMN 4.0 doesn't play like SMN 2.0 anymore (DoT class), and doesn't fit your class-fantasy ideal of a summoner (Not a 'real' pet class), while #6 is really a matter of personal opinion.

As I say I disliked SMN 2.0, enjoy SMN 4.0 (even with all it's builder phases), and never played SMN 3.0.

So, coming to the class with fresh eyes and no preconceptions of how it 'should' play, is there any mechanical issues, or is this mostly about SMN having suffered a playstyle shift over time? (Much same reason I dropped DRG 3.0)

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Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

I saw that list, but 4 of them are basically complaints that SMN 4.0 d....

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One is that if you die, you are SEVERELY punished than most other classes (tie with DRG). Your stacks restart, including Bahamut stacks.
There is a lot of cooldown management. You have to plan it out with the fight and if you do not execute with perfect accuracy, then you will end up being the last dps.
Pet reaction is worse in Stormblood than in HW.
Bahamut has ghosting issues. The game will not register a damage with 2 seconds left in the gauge. Even though there was a hit.
If you move while Bahamut is out and do attacks, Bahamut will not attack and will follow you instead.
In order to get 11 or 12 actions from Bahamut, you have to use Addelle during Bahamut, instead of using it for proper mitigation.
Devotion effing sucks, planning for someone to get devotion will result in a dps loss and even just using it can lead to a dps loss because you could have used another attack.
Bane sucks, there is almost no reason to use it and instead, you should use painflare.
Atherflow can not be used while in Dreadwyrm trance.

Summoner's version of pets are archaic, clunky and a poor fit for the game's framework.
The umbilical to SCH is at the core of many of the issues players are experiencing with SMN and that have been plaguing it since the job's inception.
The dev team has addressed that they are unhappy with how ACN works.
If BRD can undergo such large changes and a rework to their core gameplay, there's absolutely no reason that SMN cannot also receive the same treatment. Remove the job's attachment to ACN and correct the underlying issues with its core gameplay.

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Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

I saw that list, but 4 of them are basically complaints that SMN 4.0 doesn't play like SMN 2.0 anymore (DoT class), and doesn't fit your class-fantasy ideal of a summoner (Not a 'real' pet class), while #6 is really a matter of personal opinion.

As I say I disliked SMN 2.0, enjoy SMN 4.0 (even with all it's builder phases), and never played SMN 3.0.

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Then you should just play what you like. If you enjoy playing SMN in its current state then keep playing it to your heart's content. Just one thing though

Don't expect to have a place in my party finder :^)

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Originally Posted by Clover210

Then you should just play what you like. If you enjoy playing SMN in its current state then keep playing it to your heart's content. Just one thing though

Don't expect to have a place in my party finder :^)

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pff, do you really think taking a smn is preventing to do savage content ? Or any ex ?

This is so stupid to think like that, if you can master your job, whatever the content it'll be fine.

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Originally Posted by Tsukaasa

pff, do you really think taking a smn is preventing to do savage content ? Or any ex ?

This is so stupid to think like that, if you can master your job, whatever the content it'll be fine.

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Beat O1s earlier. Couldn't do it with a Summoner. Their dps was 700 below everyone else, and nobody died until enrage.

Well i beat O1s with my group too and i went there as smn, we were far from the enrage.

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Originally Posted by Tsukaasa

pff, do you really think taking a smn is preventing to do savage content ? Or any ex ?

This is so stupid to think like that, if you can master your job, whatever the content it'll be fine.

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It's specifically people with this type of chip on their shoulder that hurts classes way more than SE does. If they believe that a class is lowest on the damage ring, they won't even give them a time of day.

I see the later comment saying that they couldn't beat O1S with a summoner in their group. My thoughts are, maybe you couldn't beat them with *that* summoner. I just cannot believe that it is impossible for a group to beat every dungeon/trial/raid in this game while playing their preferred classes...and doing well with them, even if that class happens to be a SMN.

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Originally Posted by Tsukaasa

Well i beat O1s with my group too and i went there as smn, we were far from the enrage.

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Me as well... than its maybe peoples skill-level which is bad not the cls itself.
700 dps difference to ALL others is to much to just point on the cls design as reason.

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Originally Posted by AsbelLahnt

It's specifically people with this type of chip on their shoulder that hurts classes way more than SE does. If they believe that a class is lowest on the damage ring, they won't even give them a time of day.

I see the later comment saying that they couldn't beat O1S with a summoner in their group. My thoughts are, maybe you couldn't beat them with *that* summoner. I just cannot believe that it is impossible for a group to beat every dungeon/trial/raid in this game while playing their preferred classes...and doing well with them, even if that class happens to be a SMN.

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Proven fact summoner is the lowest dps -tied with Machinist.

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15...036&dataset=60

SE hurts Summoner more then anything else. You think if Summoner was near red mage people would complain?

I was a summoner when I cleared a12 savage. Trust me, I want summoner to be good more then anyone else. And it's not.

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15...gregate=amount

To account for patch 4.05, limit it to a week and you have SMN hovering around bottom 4 regardless of endgame encounter above the 50th percentile