People will still use 270 STR accessoires after 4.05 Good Job square enix.

Feels like the Dev team has lost contact to its own game.
Only adding 40 STR to I290+ accessoires compared to 78 STR on I270 accessoires. Didnt fix the Problem, people will still use I270 accessoires.
The game was made so DPS focused that nothing but DPS matters.
Just make healers healers, tanks tanks and DPS DPS and not everyone a DPS with some gimmicks.

Melds and highly increased substats make fending all around comparable for do and way better for hp. The real problem is that from 320 to 340 accessories only gain 2 str

with +25 strength melds you are looking at about a 13 strength loss at which point the secondaries 30+ points difference is going to make the DPS of the tank break even.

EDIT: Future scaling for tanks is going to be nasty and I foresee more enmity patches down the line.

I agree with the general outrage so far since 4.0 hit but with the 10%+ dmg boost from TEN total we'll be getting starting the new ilvl alongside all the other perks I think we need to wait on field numbers before making speculations otherwise we'd be jumping the gun here. If I were to venture a guess, even if 270 still had a dps advantage it would be so small that it would not outweigh the benefits unless you were parsing a dummy.

As we get higher leveled accessories, the strength on those will go up bit by bit (maybe we'll even get stronger melds) until it reaches a point that it will surpass the dps increase of the i270 accessories. Personally, I used the +vit ones, so this is good news to me.

Well, for now they might still use the 270 STR accessories... but eventually they'll become obsolete. I'm personally done with them now. It's just not worth the hassle for the healers, especially if you plan on doing Savage. It was basically a 20-25% drop in HP for my Warrior, that's like an extra cooldown! lol

I too, made use of +VIT accessories which I obtained from numerous runs of Lakshmi EX.
The numbers may be small, but you can always fix it with Strength Materia!

And, even with 0 STR accessories before the patch, I never had any problems with tanking. DPS is not a main issue for tanks. It's secondary or even tertiary (with Tenacity on top). Just be grateful SE's taken this measure, alright? They don't want to make tanks have higher than expected DPS.

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Originally Posted by Laladyn

Feels like the Dev team has lost contact to its own game.
Only adding 40 STR to I290+ accessoires compared to 78 STR on I270 accessoires. Didnt fix the Problem, people will still use I270 accessoires.
The game was made so DPS focused that nothing but DPS matters.
Just make healers healers, tanks tanks and DPS DPS and not everyone a DPS with some gimmicks.

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270 STR accessories = 76 STR + 101 substats
320 VIT + melds = 65 STR + 192 substats + 2,580 HP

Even taking a conservative stat weight of 0.15 per substats, the 92 substats different per accessories would be equal to.... 13.65 STR.
So no, the 270 STR are a thing of the past.

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Originally Posted by Lyrai_Celestine

The numbers may be small, but you can always fix it with Strength Materia!

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And suddenly, the free T6 Materia tanks can print via AiN makes sense.

Str accessory tank here :3 so happy to make the switch to vit I mean we get a hundred of vit for free by sacrificing only 13 str lol

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Originally Posted by Zojha

And suddenly, the free T6 Materia tanks can print via AiN makes sense.

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Hurray for another expansion of zero melding choice for tanks.

At least we won't be paying our severed limbs for the stuff, though.

I do think the scaling could be slightly better, maybe an extra +5 STR on each ilvl respectively but otherwise this is a change in the right direction and its still the most tank "balancing" SE has done since 2.x days.

>Raid boss dies.
>Raid party celebrates their victory and are all jumping with glee as the chests appear.
>Congratulations and 'Post SS of Loot' spam in FC Chat/LS.
>Open chest
>X Ring of Fending, X Bracelet of Fending.
>Everyone: ... Oh.
>The Tanks: ... Yeah we're pretty disappointed too. (Also experiencing Gordias PTSD)
>Looks like we're not passing that DPS check this week guys.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Hurray for another expansion of zero melding choice for tanks.

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Was there ever a choice ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Was there ever a choice ?

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Choosing between the various flavours like Tenacity, Crit, Det, Direct Hit, or SS for smaller DPS differences is better than MAIN STAT or go home.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Choosing between the various flavours like Tenacity, Crit, Det, Direct Hit, or SS for smaller DPS differences is better than MAIN STAT or go home.

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But it was never really that way. In ARR, raid gear were used because crafted gear were released much later, so no melds.
In Gordias, you still focused on overmelding STR.
At Midas and beyond, calculation was changed, so you melded STR on raid drops, and now, you still meld STR on raid drops.

And even with secondary stats, apart from melding accuraty to hit the cap (which I'm sure very few people actually liked), you still melded the stat with highest weight possible.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

But it was never really that way. In ARR, raid gear were used because crafted gear were released much later, so no melds.
In Gordias, you still focused on overmelding STR.
At Midas and beyond, calculation was changed, so you melded STR on raid drops, and now, you still meld STR on raid drops.

And even with secondary stats, apart from melding accuraty to hit the cap (which I'm sure very few people actually liked), you still melded the stat with highest weight possible.

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I know how it was. My point was that tanks are still the only ones having to meld their mainstat and don't get the luxury of choice like the other roles.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Was there ever a choice ?

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Only to those..who want to believe.

http://storage2.static.itmages.ru/i/...90f68c0a44.gif

To the sober people? No...

270 meta is dead. Thank god. Pentamelded crafted accessories are even more valuable for secondary stat gain.

Anyone still using STR accessories on their tanks at this point deserves to be vote kicked anyways.

What really bothers me is when they do mass pulls on trash and die and then blame the heals.

Bad tanks will be bad I guess.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

I know how it was. My point was that tanks are still the only ones having to meld their mainstat and don't get the luxury of choice like the other roles.

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I'd argue against this slightly. You know if monks could meld more str on their accessories they would, if blm could meld more int they would. Main stat trumps secondary stats. Even if you ignore that, stat weights are still pretty strict about what's best to meld. Maybe there is "choice" in what you can physically meld, but like crit rate is better than det which is better then direct hit etc etc (just speaking hypothetically). Kind of like an illusion of choice, bis is still bis and those require certain melds to reach bis.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I'd argue against this slightly. You know if monks could meld more str on their accessories they would, if blm could meld more int they would. Main stat trumps secondary stats. Even if you ignore that, stat weights are still pretty strict about what's best to meld. Maybe there is "choice" in what you can physically meld, but like crit rate is better than det which is better then direct hit etc etc (just speaking hypothetically). Kind of like an illusion of choice, bis is still bis and those require certain melds to reach bis.

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Yes there is an illusion of choice and that there is always a BiS. The point is that if you for example, choose to go SS over DET and have fun playing speed over raw hits, then you won't be penalized as much as tanks. It's a small tradeoff for choice that won't gimp you as much as melding substat over a MAIN stat.

Yes anyone would meld their main stat if they could. But they don't have to because their accessories don't come with half of their desired main stat.

I absolutely fail to understand why they don't just simply give us full stats like everyone else but change the weight of it if they want to keep us a fair amount lower than DPS classes. You can already design tanks to be lower by trading skill slots for your usual mitigation/enmity generation or whatever people want for tank skills. Why go through this absolutely convoluted way that just causes more problems?

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

I absolutely fail to understand why they don't just simply give us full stats like everyone else but change the weight of it if they want to keep us a fair amount lower than DPS classes. You can already design tanks to be lower by trading skill slots for your usual mitigation/enmity generation or whatever people want for tank skills. Why go through this absolutely convoluted way that just causes more problems?

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I've been pondering on similar thoughts myself. Mainly, is the only way to truly have balance just allowing tanks to do as much dps as an actual dps? People say "you'd just bring tanks instead of dps", but this seems fairly easily solved with strict role requirements in the df. Doing damage is fun, no argument there. I just wonder if shifting towards closing that gap and making tank dps close to the same it might influence more players to pick up tank roles.

A logical starting point would have been 50% of the VIT on these accessories. Don't know why they went so low.

I'd play that game in a heartbeat. People say that you'd bring more tanks because of their natural ability to soak up more mechanics thus making them far less punishing.

But in all honesty, people fail to realize that even with a full group comp, you lose out on the plethora of utilities that the DPS possess. A simple solution off the top of my head is have the DPS possess the damage buffs so that a proper tank and dps composition would have a much, much higher rdps than a full tank comp. This is already present in Limit Break. Balance content around the proper composition rdps and you will naturally have people playing all roles. Tanks can now have equal impact on fights and feel comparatively powerful? We can all compete against eachother in DPS? I'd extent this concept to healers as well but they can't heal and dps at the same time and have to actually choose their GCDs.

Not to mention people would also enjoy the various flavours of the dps roles or various other reasons.

People will probably say that I just want a DPS that uses cooldowns. In all honesty, yes. Yes that is what I want. But I would also advocate for more active and rewarding tanking gameplay ontop of that. I'd thoroughly enjoy tanking if it was actually just DPS with a complex rotation AND complex aggro management and active mitigation. I'm a masochist for rewarding challenge like that.

Tanks being unpopular due to rewarding difficulty is much better than it being an unrewarding chore that only exists because content or design forces it.

I just now see that they added cracked clusters to leveling queue (AiN bonus) two weeks ago. Guess I need to stock up on STR VI so I have one for every acc.

Wish I would have started when it happened, but I have been avoiding roulettes hard because of how unfun level synced Dark Knight is now.

I mean, summing in the next 3-4 weeks youre still somehow someway so far behind stuck with 310 accessories instead of 330 or 340...


....then can you really afford losing 10-15k hp for a ~60AP gain?

Rhetorical question. no. you cant. Treat yourself nice, Meld some STR VI, and get some HP. You deserve better.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

snip

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I like pretty much everything you have to say here, but people would still probably scream about losing the trinity or something.

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Originally Posted by Poison_Rose

I like pretty much everything you have to say here, but people would still probably scream about losing the trinity or something.

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People scream regardless lol

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

People scream regardless lol

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I mean.

You're not wrong.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

But in all honesty, people fail to realize that even with a full group comp, you lose out on the plethora of utilities that the DPS possess. A simple solution off the top of my head is have the DPS possess the damage buffs so that a proper tank and dps composition would have a much, much higher rdps than a full tank comp. This is already present in Limit Break. Balance content around the proper composition rdps and you will naturally have people playing all roles. Tanks can now have equal impact on fights and feel comparatively powerful? We can all compete against eachother in DPS? I'd extent this concept to healers as well but they can't heal and dps at the same time and have to actually choose their GCDs.
...
Tanks being unpopular due to rewarding difficulty is much better than it being an unrewarding chore that only exists because content or design forces it.

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I'd still rather be able to contribute through something other than JUST dps at that point, as a tank. I'd like to have to choose whether I want to help go ham on something or I want to contribute in some other way at a given time, not through long-term stretches such as GCD stance swaps and gauge-halving, or even the mere fact that I am a specialist (tank), but through more GCD-to-GCD or resource-consuming oGCD options.

The main issue, imo, is simply that so much of tanks' arsenals is content-scaling, meaning that their contribution inevitably makes them required at first and inferior later. They can be undertuned or overtuned to make that required phase longer, or vice versa, but as long as their mitigation and tools are consistently percentiles of enemy stats, rather than their own, they will not scale in the same way that DPS or healers will. The only notable exceptions to this was 1.x - 2.0 Warrior, with mere traces remaining in its current iteration. It was capable of no-healing Amdapor Keep myth runs, but painfully inferior to Paladin in first Coil, all because the one's toolkit scaled only with content, and the other's only with gear.

Build new mechanics for core tanking mechanisms that allow perhaps for some greater value in practice when still underleveled for content but that nonetheless scale as well as healing, and voila, you've got consistent tank relevance.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The main issue, imo, is simply that so much of tanks' arsenals is content-scaling, meaning that their contribution inevitably makes them required at first and inferior later. They can be undertuned or overtuned to make that required phase longer, or vice versa, but as long as their mitigation and tools are consistently percentiles of enemy stats, rather than their own, they will not scale in the same way that DPS or healers will.

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It would be interesting if mitigation skills would scale with your stats. Each CD would have its own potency, and would scale with Defense, Vitality and even some secondaries. Tenacity to increase the effect, critical rate to allow for critical mitigation, etc...

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Originally Posted by Falar

A logical starting point would have been 50% of the VIT on these accessories. Don't know why they went so low.

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They most likely didn't want to add the STR in the first place so they put the minimum amount of STR to match the 270 accessories with melds and substat difference.
It was the easier option rather than re-balancing gear stats or raid content.
Right now, STR on Vit accessories is still not part of the game design and SE simply did a quick & dirty patch.

Let's not go thinking that SE adjusted Omega Savage as was likely finalized when they put STR on Fending accessories.
Most likely, they did a quick regression test to check the higher Tank damage wouldn't break the raid balance and trivialize the content.
it's pretty obvious when you see the minuscule STR increase from ilvl 320 to 340. They had to give us some increase out of principle but didn't want to make Tanks any stronger.

But at least, they now have a viable framework for future content.
Gear and Fights can now be designed under the premise that tanks DPS will scale from right side. I'm fairly certain that in the next raid tier, the STR increase from the max ilvl accessories will be more significant.

crafte d accessories with str and direct hit melds might be the new way to go

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Originally Posted by LadyCeles

crafte d accessories with str and direct hit melds might be the new way to go

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That's my plan. In 3-4 weeks when the prices are better I am going to buy full i320 right side and meld STR VI Primary and advanced meld a ton of direct hit. Hell, I am going to be visiting the leveling queue heavy and often and try to get a bunch of Savage Aim VI and may even try to get some of those in the 1st advanced meld slot.

So in other words people out there have a hard time understanding, what else is new...For dungeon runs people shouldn't matter, we work fro what we can get get. However for raids / endgame is a different ball game. Why do people keep using dungeon gear, or lower, get into raids and expect not to be yelled at or concerned? Meeting minimum requirements is fine and all, but seriously people know your job stats. ASK people, and at a minimum have tome gear. Why do people think it's hard to get materia? Meld away, ask your FC, do hunts anything. Why can't people use their common sense , select the stat and read? It's not SE fault if people pay, play how they want, and lack common sense >.>.

-Common sense is dead--

Note I understand there are casual players, sprouts, and hardcore out there...but please if your going to be swapping between styles at least learn the basics for what players look for, Know your job, be well geared for your level, use food if needed, ASK QUESTIONS...

There was a STR DRK in my susano clear party I made for my friend. I used intervention on him, he popped cooldowns and blackest night and he would barely live with like 10% HP most of the time, other times just outright die. This was probably due to the healers not pre-emptively shielding him, but that's a possibility you have to consider when you enter a pug group.

People forget the reason tanks even wore STR accessories in gordias. It was out of necessity, not because they wanted to. The dps checks were just that tight, and wiping because one single DPS was not being as optimal as they could be was the reality. But now STR accessories are dead. The dps and stress you are costing the healers is not worth your marginal DPS again.

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Originally Posted by LadyCeles

crafte d accessories with str and direct hit melds might be the new way to go

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They are, and they will be BiS until the next batch of crafted accessories most likely.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The main issue, imo, is simply that so much of tanks' arsenals is content-scaling, meaning that their contribution inevitably makes them required at first and inferior later. They can be undertuned or overtuned to make that required phase longer, or vice versa, but as long as their mitigation and tools are consistently percentiles of enemy stats, rather than their own, they will not scale in the same way that DPS or healers will

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Yeah, this is something TERA did. The amount of damage you could mitigate through blocking was solely dependent on your weapon. Regardless of all the problems it had, I think tanking is the one thing it did right.