Why are RDMs so scared of SMN being able to heal?

Your job is already extremely easy with very little punishment for making mistake. You have the best burst for single target and have the highest DPS of the casters.

Who cares if SMN can heal as well or better than RDM? Isn't being OP good enough?

No, you did not...


... You did. XD

I think you have it backwards. All I see is complaints of SMN not being able to heal like a RDM. It was a question in the live letter actually. That's why this debate is even brought up. SMNs started it. It shouldn't even matter, since that's not even what they were designed for. Sustain is more important for pets since that's what the job 's focus should be about, not healing party members. I don't think RDMs even care if SMN is able to heal to be honest. They are just annoyed at the lack of objectivity for the nerf outcry from the other casters. There's no reason to stirr the pot.

Red mages aren't the ones who don't want stronger heals for summoner, it's the devs.

lol what? As a RDM, I couldn't give a stuff what SMN's have.

I don't think RDMs care....it's all SE. Here we have a case of 'Class Fantasy'.......

OP, can I have some of what you're having?

You need to watch the Producer Letter Live. It went something like this (video starting 1:15:54).

"Next question. Red Mage heals scale off INT. Can Summoner heals also scale off INT instead of MND?"
"Huh?"
"Ah, I see...."
"Huh?"
"Huh?"
(Repeats question.)
"You're talking about Summoner, yeah?"
"Yes, Summoner."
"Red Mage. Born from both white magic and black magic..."
"Yes, we know."
"...Summoner..."
(audience laughs)
"...I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you're talking about."
"Yes, that's exactly what we're talking about."
"If you go there it's just gonna be chaos. You know I was asked just today as well, only black mages can't raise people. I mean BLACK MAGE! It's called BLACK mage!"
"Yes, you're right. Exactly right."
"But this is basically the same argument, right?"
"Yes, I know."
"Yeah, I understand the argument. With Dual Cast and the kind of healing they can do. When both healers are down and the Red Mage waltz in and saves the day. But, listen, Summoner players, listen okay? Red Mage can raise, okay? And Black Mage, nothing, okay? That's why we have jobs, okay?"
"Okay, yes."
"So go play a Red Mage (if you want to do what Red Mages do)."
"Well yes, on the extreme that's what you end up with."

Then Yoshida reads online comments.

"But that's not the point, yes, I know what you're talking about. But if everyone do the same things, like the differences in difficulty we talked about just now, if everything's strictly fair across the board, then they all become the same job. I mean, I don't think games are supposed to be like that. And that's why we're also putting in the utmost effort into adjusting the balance. It's just that we think this way, as a game, it is more interesting. Yeah."
"Yes. And the next question..."

The answer from the live letter xxxviii:

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Q12. Red mage’s Vercure is affected by the INT attribute, but would it be possible to change summoner’s Physic so that the cure potency changes with INT?

A12. Red mage was born from both white and black magic; however, summoner is different.

Summoner can raise players, while black mages cannot. This is part of their role. If we made it so that all jobs can do everything, every job will just become the same, and I don’t think that’s how a game should be.

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I think RDM's could care less....

RDM dont reaslly VerCare about this. We;re more worried about the crowd that thinks raises should be on a 30 second timer regardless of dualcast, or some seriously wicked spiteful nerfs alot of the nerf threads want to see done to us. BLM healing better than a paladin in 2.0 was silly, i mean blm. As for summoner I think a cure would be great but i thought maybe a sustain or regen insteadiof a direct cure would be fitting

Not sure if Trolling or not...

Most RDM players don't care whether or not SMN gets Physick to scale off of INT. If anything a fair few would probably feel some level of relief as there would be slightly fewer, 'Nerf RDM,' demands from players of SMNs.

Who is scared ?
VerCure is an optional skill in redmage toolkit, it's not centered in his gameplay.

I don't understand why people are exagerating about this.

as a smn main..


please give me back sustain, smn shouldn't waste mp curing their pet so much. :/

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

RDM can verraise because a white mage can raise. Rdm can vercure because a white mage can cure. Red Mage can verfire because blm can fire. Rdm can verthunder because blm can Thunder.

I would like it if during balancing, they left physick at 400, and added that damage taken is reduced by 5-10% for 5 seconds. SCH would need balanced around this, but it would help SMN contribute to it's own survival. As for pets, i feel like rouse should restore a pets HP to full each time its used. Allow Chocos to heal pets and smn loses its need for sustain, while increasing utility and dps.

That said, SMNs shouldn't be asking for a heal comparable to rdm, but a way to contribute to keep their pet alive and maybe raid utility.

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Replied to your rant in the Vercure thread.

Tbh I am more disappointed about Aetherpact not being able to select target via party list. It annoys me during my rotation moving my pet to the party member, whose strength I wanna buff. Why was that out of the question?
I don't really care about physic, but I think they should remove it when turning to SMN. Why have it when its only there as a placeholder?

You see threads like this, troll threads, derail and overshadow the legitimate argument SMN's and SCH's are trying to make for Sustain's return. For the life of me I don't know why that question even made it into the live letter in the first place..

Sure give SMN's Cure, have fun casting 2-3 heals to top them off when you could just cast sustain and go back to your DPS Rotation you probably had to mess up to heal your Egi.

Also weren't you the person who made a thread complaining about Chocobo Healing?

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Who is scared ?
VerCure is an optional skill in redmage toolkit, it's not centered in his gameplay.

I don't understand why people are exagerating about this.

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Utility, who would you rather have, a RDM that can cure well and raise, a SMN that can raise or a BLM that can't do any of the two?

They could even have fun with how they go about it, I say heck, why not give all range dps a form of "raise".

RDM and SMN could have one based on giving the target double weakness and unable to raise a target that is already hit with weakness.

BLM could "Reanimate" bringing back a target ally for 15-30 seconds giving them enough time to raise another healer or maybe finish off the fight depending on the situation, the enfeeble from this of course would be unable to renamity X target for 1 min.

BRD and MCH could have "Song of the Dead" and Defibrillator. Song of the Dead would target an ally raising them while putting a heavy DoT on the Bard while also causing them to be unable to be healed. If they disable the song, the target dies and if the BRD dies so does the target. it would basically be a way to either bring back an ally when trying to conserve healers MP or bringing back a healer to get the other healer up, but the idea is the huge sacrifice is the BRD's own life, meaning if they do get hit by a severe AOE odds are they will die.

As for Defibrillator it would bring an ally back but their Max HP would be reduced by 50% but they would have no weakness. They'll have a hard time staying alive if they get hit by an AoE mechanic but being brought back up would in the case of 2 healers give them enough time to bring up the other healer.

My issue with their response, they aren't thinking outside the box and considering the balance of certain roles having access to certain utility over other jobs. If they took a step back and considered creative ways to give other jobs a means to support/continue the fight if others died, it would balance it out more but as it stands you have the following.

3 healers can raise, 2 Range DPS can raise, the other roles can't. So you have BLM that can't, MCH/BRD can't, NIN/DRG/MNK can't but see the issue is moreso with range DPS.

If we look at an 8 party system have 2 healers, 2 tanks, 2 melee dps and 2 range dps, then the staple in the 2 range DPS becomes either RDM/SMN with RDM having the edge and maybe MCH/BRD/BLM to fill other slot, but even then BLM is the one hurting most because at least MCH/BRD have their tp/mp regen roles abilities to give them an edge to being chosen, so BLM ends up being the one in limbo because in terms of overall utility they lack something their other mage friends have, raise.

I mean they could just make phoenix downs a thing, like every Final Fantasy... personally would be ok with the 1 per inventory at a time as well

but then people would bitch that rdm and smn still can cast raises., so they should be able to carry 99 I mean the purpose of having that utility is an emergency anyway. That and job identity.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

They already exist. And they're "Unique" items so 1 per inventory at a time. Problem is, they can't be used in combat.

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Yeah that being said the use of in combat with that restriction would allow everyone 1 emergency pick up but thats it

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

I mean they could just make phoenix downs a thing, like every Final Fantasy... personally would be ok with the 1 per inventory at a time as well

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They already exist. And they're "Unique" items so 1 per inventory at a time. Problem is, they can't be used in combat.

I would care literally 0 if SMN could heal "better" or not.
Although I have to say I believe it is silly that they took away the pet heal but kept the weak heal, should have been the other way.
What I mostly see on the forums is that SMN/BLM players ask rdm to be nerfed into nothing.

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Originally Posted by Kling-Klang

I would care literally 0 if SMN could heal "better" or not.
Although I have to say I believe it is silly that they took away the pet heal but kept the weak heal, should have been the other way.
What I mostly see on the forums is that SMN/BLM players ask rdm to be nerfed into nothing.

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Right? And quite frankly, I love how Yoshi P explained the whole situation. Just play a RDM if you want to be a RDM.
I did see the early patch notes for SB, when I read the sustain was removed, having been a SMN main at the end of 3.x, I have to agree with those sentiments. Physicks been dead or useless since HW came out, anyway, outside of scholar.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

They already exist. And they're "Unique" items so 1 per inventory at a time. Problem is, they can't be used in combat.

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Gotta love it. Every other FF has them available in combat. But not here cuz XIV special snowflake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash_

You see threads like this, troll threads, derail and overshadow the legitimate argument SMN's and SCH's are trying to make for Sustain's return. For the life of me I don't know why that question even made it into the live letter in the first place..

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They did also reply to this request, and basically their answer is a very round-about way of saying "git gud". Specifically, they expressed that managing the pet is part of the pet job. My understanding is that they're implying that if you don't want to manage the pet, i.e. you want it to just eat everything the boss can throw at it and take it like a boss, then you shouldn't be playing a pet job. In the same way that Physick will not be scaling off INT, pets will not be impervious to damage now. As a pet job player, you will have to manage your pet.

Not that I don't want to see SMNs and BLMs get an easier time. In fact I was so disgusted with the 3.x BLM rotation that I simply stopped playing in 3.3. I liked the BLM 2.x rotation and thought it would be a great introduction to magical dps (I mained PLD in 2.x) so I put everything into the BLM in 3.0, and ended up with extreme frustration. I stopped playing for a while, then came back with a new character (currently my main) maining WHM. But then subscription ran out. I came back in Stormblood because I saw the BLM changes, and see hope in the dev's response.

I wouldn't be surprised if SMN get some benefits elsewhere to compensate for the extra chores of managing the pet positioning, though. In fact, I expect the devs to do it. They must know as well as any of us that if things stay the way they are right now, the vast majority of caster DPS players will end up be Red Mages, and they'll have to adjust SMN and BLM anyway, so they might as well do it now before pissing off too many subscribers.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...44/770/e9d.jpg

/endthread

I say give SMN and BLM Egi-Cure, and Astral/Umbral Cure.
And more so, give them Egi-Raise, and Astral/Umbral-Raise.

Then they can stop complaining about the "oh so amazing" support RDM offers.

Trust me, I'd rather not have people complain im not raising people during DPS checks, if it means BLMs will do it for us instead.

I dunno... Blackmage is fun to play but SE is on crack if they think RDM should have this much utility and the amount of dps it has. Summoner and blackmage should be highest magic dps classes due to lack of utility automatically and if you want my personal opinion blackmage should have the highest dps celing if played at max potential DUE to the fact that it has no real party utility to bring. Don't even care if I get flamed, the struggle is real for BLM but smn is atleast getting their voices starting to be heard lately anyway.

If Physick is bad just because it's a summoner then give me a healing summon as quite a few of old school summoners had in the past (looking at Kirin, Sylph, Phoenix, Ashura, Lakshmi, Seraph, Unicorn...). What's that, Summoners usually can't heal? *stares at Yuna*

You can remove Physick in that case if it's going to be a dead weight in my toolkit, you had no problem removing sustain, which was arguably way more useful for me. While you're at it, separate SMN and SCH already, it's just a tragedy at this point.

Personally, regardless of whether or not it fits the class themes, I'm not really in support of giving any DPS class full healer capability the way they did with RDM. Don't get me wrong, I love how they've switched some party support focus to DPS players. It's really important to get the players thinking about the party, not just themselves. However, support skills should stay just that: support skills. Palisade? great. Mana Shift? Great. A near-Physick level heal (stronger than Cure II when dualcast) with nothing but the GCD? Plus a raise that can always be instant-cast? That's not just support. That's a class that can literally sub in for a healer. Sure, RDM doesn't have every tool that a healer does. But it is effectively a healer, to the point that you can run at least some dungeons without a healer, using a RDM instead.

I think that RDM should maintain its ability to heal and raise, but they should have cooldowns. SMN can also be given powerful heals, but if they get them, they need to be on a cooldown as well. This lets the DPS classes chip in at important moments if they see the healers struggling, but they can't just switch to being a co-healer if one of the healers dies.

So this is a joke off what they said in the LL, I see..
However they really do not understand what is being asked, the only reason that was asked so they can heal the pets. At this point I need to question why not remove SMN's heal and let them have sustain??? Even then it is still helpful to have for SCH, because of the faster casting and the use and forget type of thing... They also had a question on sustain (thank goodness) and they assumed the reduced damage was enough and looking into solutions. If they can't fix this why not make pets immune to damage or give sustain back?

I think at the very least give SMN sustain back.
On a side note - Remove horrible Cleric Stance and give the original back to WHM. May as well since they're obviously making WHM a healing DPS lol.

I think everyone is just jumping to conclusions prematurely. Sure, RDM heals and raises may seem awesome and save the day sometimes in this early content (dungeons, early Primals, normal raids, etc)... However, if it gets to the point where a RDM has to heal tanks and raise both healers in savage Omega or even some of the later potential extreme primals, I think the party is pretty much screwed. The content will probably be getting harder and the DPS checks will be getting tougher. I doubt RDMs will be saving the day by solo healing tanks and raising healers through this content at min ilvl. They will dpsing just like SMN.

I really don't care what the other jobs can or cannot do other than seeking balance in DPS and utility so all classes have usefulness in dungeons and raids. Personally I don't think the Summoner should have a player healing ability. You make the choice at lvl 30 whether you want to heal or DPS. Summoner does need some way to maintain the pet but that doesn't have to, or shouldn't, be an exact copy of player healing. That is why I like Sustain. It is pet specific and fits with abilities the a Summoner needs to manage a pet.

Black mage does not need your crappy heals/res, that barely can be called utility, because when in actuality are you going to want to be using those abilities? That's right, absolutely never. If casters get homogenized like this then I'm out, fisher for life. Because if they give BLM a heal/res, they will take away in other places. That's generally true for most things, except RDM does more damage and also has more utility options, as well as a party wide damage buff. Do you hyper defensive forum red mages know that the other casters don't have a way to temporarily increase their own damage, much less the entire party's output? I don't get why people don't understand this. There should be a baseline. If one job has more extra things than another, then it should be very slightly less efficient overall, no one is asking for RDM to be nerfed into oblivion. Everyone is overreacting about everything.

"You all need to calm down."

Also I don't play BLM to cover for other's mistakes. That's what I have WHM for.

I don't care about the being able to heal my party members - I just care about Titan-Egi not being 100% worthless...just give SMN sustain back or give Titan a 90% DMG reduction.

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Originally Posted by Ayerinn

I don't care about the being able to heal my party members - I just care about Titan-Egi not being 100% worthless...just give SMN sustain back or give Titan a 90% DMG reduction.

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And have Titan-Egi tank Ramuh again!? Never!

In terms of SMN buffs, I'd like to see:

-Devotion made better. I don't care how, just do it. Right now it just feels miserable and frustrating to use. I'd love a party-wide buff but admit with how catch-all good the current effect is that might be a little OP. Letting us target our chosen party member would be a good start.

-Sustain returned. Ifrit at least mostly gets healer AOE heals but Garuda is out of range a lot and for some reason people desperately still want Titan tank to be viable so there's still definitely a use for Sustain.

-Overall damage buffed, or rotation made more forgiving. This is mostly in regards to fudging up Aetherflow/Aethertrail Attune, since SMN only receives Demi-Bahamut's huge power spike by successfully executing Dreadwyrm Trance twice. Mess up Attune; no more DWT for another minute, no Bahamut for another minute. Considering a lot of SMN's "filler" like their DoTs (including Shadow Flare) and Ruin III were nerfed (plus not enough MP to use Ruin III constantly like you could in HW), it's a pretty punishing loss to die or accidentally flub an Aetherflow stack.



On a personal level I think Bahamut is super cool and makes me feel like an awesome badass primal essence Summoner of old FF lore, so it'd be nice if he came out more often. Even nerfing his damage but letting us use him after every DWT instead of every other one would be awesome, and a slight buff to the rotation overall. That's just my personal thoughts, though - even if they're not permanent entiries, I really like the graphical representation of Demi-Bahamut and hope the devs expand on it in the future with other primals (WTB Demi-Shiva pls thx).

Low quality bait, I rate 8.8/88.

I would take less damage for RDM ST for better AoE. 100 potency every GCD is really sad, considering BLM and SMN have 600+ potency AoEs.

At the end of the day, FF lore dictates that SMNs should have decent healing spells at their disposal. Whether they had access to actual white magic or were able to summon a burst healing medium, they still had something in the form of recovery/support. So in order to compromise, it's not unreasonable to give SMM either a tweaked Physick or the return of Sustain.

Yes you could argue that FFXIV is different and attempts to see every single job completely unique, so SMM should not folllow the typical lore. But as long as SMN and SCH branch from the same class, they are still intertwined and should be treated as such.