Like, I have been busy with life since the start of 2017. When I realized we got a expansion that seemed to be tailored to Monk (kind of like HW was for DRG) I was really excited but I didn't want to be too excited because frankly with what Monk was, being top DPS, it felt like the class was getting spoiled.
A week before SB came I logged on. I visited my forest house on the lakefront and smashed my training dummy, seeing if I'm up to snuff with my inactivity due to college and work. I didn't nail fracture perfectly which was fine with me, muscle memory got the rest down quite well and I was satisfied.
So SB came out. I didn't buy it right away let alone pre-order because frankly finances were tight and well I had other things to do at the time. A week went by and my old buddies were yelling at me to get SB, like the excited friends I'm happy to still have in my own little linkshell, even after my inactivity.
I lost b4b, featherfoot, enhanced mantra, steel peak stun, ToD, fracture, and they nerfed (from what I could tell) demo back to 18 seconds and a potency drop in FC. I knew right away that TP management was better without my dots but then it might've made purification useless... Which is a shame, as we got that skill when we needed it the most, and lost it when we lost the abilities that needed it.
But hey I stuck to it. At around 62 as I was watching the forums and the feedback from SB, I heard word about the distaste with Monk and how people felt. THen I realized I didn't look close enough to my skill riddle of fire. I then heard that it was a mearly 3% more DPS than b4b... So really it didn't feel like a new ability, more like a compensation for nerfing my favorite class..
And let me be clear. I started playing Monk just before 2.3 was released. The only time I played it was outside light grinding for my WHM relic because well I was sick of WHM! Haha. However I began to enjoy Monk. It was fast paced and truly made me feel immersed in the game. It reminds me of my favored character from Smash Bros; Fox. It's not that I only played it to escape wHM, I was simply working my hardest on my relic. It turns out the only time I remember playing Monk was when I raided. As I raided more and learned the skill (after you know, saying eff you to the true rotation with positions, at least at first. Once I accepted it and took up the positional rotations, it was so fun, it felt like dancing. As I raided more and more and got better and better, I played WHM less and less and before I knew it, my WHM relic felt useless and my main shifted to Monk.
Back to the top DPS thing. This was actually a problem for me. You see, I happeend to be a friend of a very insecure bard. And as you might remember, Bard had the absolute lowest DPS. It was so bad that when MCH came out, bard was ignored by everyone. Anyway. It was even worse in final coil because while we raided, I got my BiS gear after our first T12 clear. I didn't even need T13. The bard, unfortunately, could never get the treasured bracelet from T11 no matter how many clears we got.
So after hearing more and more about Monk, I was seriously considering leveling SCH who was only 2 levels behind me (little did I know at the time that you guys screwed over SCH too.. yeah... since i touched on it, thanks also for dropping SCH down the status of "possible main healer"). However, I love Monk and it deserved the benefit of the doubt, so here I stand at 68.. I've tried riddle of fire a few times.. And don't really like it.. It basically takes our GL speed away, something we've had to get use to since level 40, 28 levels ago.. It ruins my flow and.. yeah. I'd rather have b4b even if it meant taking 25% more damage, or whatever it was.
So let's talk about SAM. I like SAM. It's awesome, it uses the same gear as Monk and considering I don't exactly like DRG and NIN all that much, I was excited to level it, and still am.
Only... today I learned something interesting. Apparently SAM was advertised as the top DPS..? Or at least in one of the articles I found talking about its announcement back in february, it claimed the job "will focus on dealing "massive damage"" (source which is fine, but...
Pre SB, Monk was top DPS. There wasn't much reason this would change. It didn't have many raid utility that could otherwise contribute in the place for DPS (think Bard/MCH).
Did SAM replace Monk? Did you (SE) do this because you didn't know what to do with Monk? Or were you seriously trying to make the job more appealing to new players and... Yeah. Because I get that maybe you wanted SAM to be the best, but you didn't have to go against the basic playstyle that this job has had from the start and just.. give us crappy excuses for new abilities...
Thanks for reading.
Did Samurai replace Monk?
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07-16-2017, 08:13 AMMorzyDid Samurai replace Monk?
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07-16-2017, 08:22 AMGokuhan
You think it hurts for MNK? I main DRG and raid utility or not it blows to have our dps knocked down as far as it was.
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07-16-2017, 08:26 AMBourne_Endeavor
Despite Tackle Mastery being downright awful, Monk is actually in a fairly strong spot. They do crazy amounts of damage, and could easily be shifted into a comp without losing too much. Dragoon is the job looking like it may suffer, especially if they buff Machinist a fair bit.
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07-16-2017, 08:34 AMMorzyIt's not the damage I have a problem with. I'm not mad because of the loss in damage. It's what SE did to the job that resulted in not just the state of its DPS but also its playstyle that I don't like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
I would switch places with your job in terms of DPS if I could get the playstyle I had in HW back. Forget my new abilities. I would be fine if they buffed my pre-SB abilities to match what your job does right now in terms of DPS and raid contribution. I don't know what SE did to your job with this patch but considering what I saw and herd throughout HW, you have my sympathy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gokuhan
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07-16-2017, 08:34 AMMysticdraggon
yes, a lot of what monk had was cut in half and compensated with SB content, but that does not mean sam is replacing the class. however, i do have my own suspicious when sam was featured as the best DPS and that it was convenient that such a powerful class was available in SB. basically, as soon as they get a lot of people playing SB, they will either nerf SAM and take away the class's spotlight or (i hope) buff other DPS classes to have the same potential.
so if i have to say anything, keep SAM as is. its probably the only class that feels like your not just the party's "extra" damage output. instead, the SAM IS the DPS of the party and i wish that other DPS classes were roughly the same.
the only similarity between pre-4.0 monk and 4.0 SAM is the amount of de-buffs you can place on each enemy. in which most of these abilities, I.E ToD, was removed from Monk's utility.
....i miss ToD... -
07-16-2017, 08:48 AMMorzyAnd I don't get that. It would have been nice if SAM and Monk were neck and neck, competition is good and it would be kool to have more variety as which melee a raid team would prioritize. Which I suppose they still do now because monk is second best DPS (?) but not a lot of people like it anymore so... Yeah..Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysticdraggon
And ya.. I miss ToD too =_=. It feels really bland without dots. I always remember either needing to refresh DoTs or needing to use an ability that just got off cooldown but now... i'm just moving on with the same rotation. It's.. Boring. -
07-16-2017, 09:22 AMSokutaban
Monk right now, for me, feels like being given an "ice cream cake" that turns out to be filled with mud. I leveled it to about 64 before I gave up on it to level (the soon to be nerfed) pally. Came back and leveled it to 70. Haven't touched it since.
After reading the patch notes for 4.0, with every ability taking a potency hit, it felt to me that they wanted SAM to take the top spot for melee.
The addition of riddle of fire as an ability also felt like an insult, if anything they should have temporarily increased monk's speed with an ability. This would have let you get greased lightning back faster after loosing it.
Overall they would have to change the job significantly to make me excited to play it again like in 3.0. -
07-16-2017, 09:24 AMVanitas
Tldr: mad cuz monk isn't top dps anymore.
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07-16-2017, 09:25 AMDaraliiWhen was it ever?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanitas
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07-16-2017, 09:41 AMKazrahThink it was by like a hair in the later halves of HW and ARR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daralii
Monk doesn't seem that terrible, but that has always seemed to be the case. Biggest hurdle for Monk development I think is trying to provide extra features to what has really been the perfect basic rotation, and the solution was adding QoL adjustments to features added in HW (specifically chakra use). I think they succeeded in that, but then tried too hard to make predominantly pointless features relevant (a.k.a. the riddle system).
It's not in the best place, but it's still well ahead on that list. -
07-16-2017, 09:46 AMMorzyWhen you make it very clear that you like Monk for the playstyle and enjoyed it before you even knew it was top DPS... And still get replies like this. <.<Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanitas
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07-16-2017, 09:50 AMHarzI would just like to point out that mantra is 20% by default now, without the trait.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morzy
As someone who played WAR from when I first started right up until the release of Stormblood though, Fracture can rot in a ditch. -
07-16-2017, 09:57 AMBhearil
Right now monk is on a spot where its no good but not bad either, due to its base mechanics. Problem is that the new skills are either pointless or just a compensation of the class buffs the monk has lost. Gameplay wise it feels like a nerfed 3.0 monk with a teeny little bit of utility with Brotherhood.
Its simply on not a horrible state because on 3.0 was the top dps so the nerfs didnt send it to the botton of the chain, but is not on a good place either specially when right now sam is how monk has should be: no utility but dps high enough to be a viable option despite that.
Right now people looking for super duper high dps have the sam, while others looking for damage with utility can simply get the ninja. Dragoon is on a bad spot though, but at least nothing that some value buffs cant fix while monk is stuck with the mostly crappy SB skills that have come to stay, not counting that monk gameplay is basically the same unlike most of the other classes that have received changes alongside the way -
07-16-2017, 09:59 AMMorzyIt's funny. I read somewhere on a post earlier today where someone mentioned enhanced mantra for monk and I thought the exact words you just said. Weird how my fingers wanted to retype it. <_<Quote:
Originally Posted by Harz
I hope you're wrong. I hope they fix it. They removed the castign stuff from support, so I think there's hope. But yeah, SAM + DRG/NIN, why go any other way? :/ Monk is so unappealing to raid with now, too, I sure as heck wouldn't try.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhearil
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07-16-2017, 10:04 AMCoatl
You realize MNK has brotherhood and mantra right. If MNK did the same DPS as samurai, samurai then would have no place.
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07-16-2017, 10:25 AMMorzyYou really don't understand how SE balances jobs DPS, do you...Quote:
Originally Posted by Coatl
I might throw "DPS" around lightly but I don't necessarily mean Monk doing the same damage as SAM. I talked about competition between the two and that's what I want but there is no competition because Monk is a complete mess and got the worst abilities in this patch out of all of the jobs (my adopted opinion, argue it if you wish)Quote:
Originally Posted by Morzy
So no, you are correct. Monk can't be as independent as SAM in terms of it's raw DPS in relation to it's raid utility (or lack thereof) So please pull your head out of your butt and stop reponding for my plea of "moar DPS for monk" when all I freaking want is for SE to fix this mess they made and make the job fun again AND generate actual competition between two jobs that same similar lack of raid utility and use the same freaking gear. Geez. -
07-16-2017, 10:37 AMBhearil
No one is asking for top damage, is normal that monk having utility now (albeit not much) should be doing less damage than sam, problem is that the expansion new toys are either clunky or outright garbage design wise and no ammount of number crunching can fix that :(
For people that played monk since a while most of them will feel that monk is a downgrade of its previous state gameplay wise. They upped the low skill cap, but the high ceiling is also reduced, add cumbersome mechanics plus nonsensical skills, i mean for gods sake remove the stances already or put them as buffs like cleric stance, 1ilm punch is a prime example of a strange idea (is there such a need to stun things so badly?) with horrible implementing since it will only be avaliable 1/3 of the time and thats just a few examples.
Adding all of that it feels like the devs have no clue of what to do with the monk since its skills set contradicts itself like having tornado kick at the same time as riddle of earth, which makes people to switch to other jobs looking for a fun and DEFINED class. Right now it sounds like the devs said when designing SB monk: "ok monk was top dps on last expansion, lets give it on this one a bit of utility, nerf its damage and see what happens since we have no clue but hey, tackles are cool as well as stances! , every monk will love to switch stances!, look at wind stance, its awesome! and earth stance can send enemies away from the monk, every melee will envy that!!" -
07-16-2017, 10:52 AMMorzy
Thank you for that. I'm so terrible at articulating what I want to say.. *sweat drop* You did pretty darn good.
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07-16-2017, 11:07 AMTheSky
Replace implies they had a spot in the party to begin with. :^)
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07-16-2017, 11:09 AMMorzyYou sound like my girlfriend, who happens to be a english major. She gets me all the darn time... D:Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSky
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07-16-2017, 11:13 AMSpeckledBurd
Monk's damage is in a pretty good spot, the only thing that makes it's damage seem weak is Ninja being way to strong for how much support it brings (IE:all of the support). It's real issue is that so many of it's new abilities all just feel like crap to use on some level that it's taken a Job who's claim to fame was "It's streamlined, it's fast and it just feels good to use" and made it "it's streamlined but it's completely stale having been doing the same thing for so long, and now its kinda janky and gross to play."
Brotherhood is good on paper, but it also makes Monk highly party composition dependent for both personal damage and overall party contribution. If you have a caster heavy composition in an 8-man or don't have a Warrior tanking and Bard/Machinist in 4-man's then it hurts your damage pretty substantially.
Riddle of Fire boosts your damage to wacky levels, but it eliminates your speed buff which was basically the main draw of the job since ARR. If I don't have an Arrow I pretty much despise using it even though it makes me hit for huge amounts of damage.
Riddle of Earth is just ability bloat. They could have reduced Perfect Balance's cooldown time to a better effect, because as it is this requires you to get hit within the window for Greased Lightning in order to work. If the boss jumps and doesn't do damage like he does during Susano's first jump? Tough luck and Perfect balance is still on cooldown. The same is true for older mechanics like Time Gates, A11 Quick Time events, and stuff like Gaol's.
Tackle Mastery is just dumb. Why did they think it was a good idea? We will never know.
The fact that they said they considered Greased Lightning IV is a total bummer too, because I would have liked that as a cooldown more than anything we got. -
07-16-2017, 11:19 AMTigrayou are trolling.... right? only reason people ever took monk in the first place was for the dps it had and MNK had Manthra forever, no one took MNK for that at all also MNK is the only dps that does blunt damage so they have zero synergy with any other job in the game. "but brotherhood!" WOO 5% PHYSICAL damage buff for 15 seconds every 1:30... yea real talk id rather be doing 300 more dps like SAM is right now who actually has synergy with other jobsQuote:
Originally Posted by Coatl
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07-16-2017, 11:23 AMSpeckledBurdCorrection, in ARR people took Monk for Dragon Kick, because it had the highest personal DPS the 10% intelligence down on it was critical to survival. In Heavensward, Dark Knight had the Intelligence down and it was better at tanking most fights because most tank busters were magical which played well with Dark Mind. It's personal DPS was also not sufficiently high enough that it was viable compared to a Dragoon with Battle Litany who buffed your Bard/Machinist (or both during the final Tier) or Ninja who had trick attack and aggro shenanigans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigra
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07-16-2017, 11:31 AMMorzyIndeed, I do remember the time when the gear lvl was just enough to where you could beat T13 BUT it was a lot easier with a Monk. Those days are gone, though, and so is that 10% INT debuff. Why they took that away, I have no idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd
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07-16-2017, 11:46 AMExiled_Tonberry
Not sure why people keep saying Monk is in a good place. It's utility is extremely weak and limited and really needs to be either buffed, or it's personal DPS buffed.
Right now, Monk doesn't make up for nearly 400 DPS of a difference with brotherhood, and it's personal DPS is no better than Ninjas. Yet Ninja offers more though utility, so Monk in the end will be excluded. -
07-16-2017, 11:51 AMYitharV2Monk isn't that bad DPS wise. See thread. It's how it feels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanitas
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07-16-2017, 03:00 PMKeikun
Every class has their time to shine, right now its SAM and RDM turn, deal with it.
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07-16-2017, 03:55 PMMomoOG
Monk changes just seem kind of insulting even if overall the class dps is good. They were unwilling to make it a true selfish dps for the entirety of the last expansion but gave that design in full force to SAM. Why did MNK have to suffer in HW if they clearly don't have a problem creating a class like SAM in SB? Than they give it a clunky version of raid utility because apparently that's what peopled asked for. Why not just give it proper raid utility instead of one that depends so heavily on party composition and rng?