Solution to healers not dpsing in dungeons

If healers refuse to dps in dungeons well I'm going to use full str accessories and stay in deliverance, sword oath and no grit no problem.

Your healer could STILL be getting used to how things play. Your healer could be one of those healers who cant really identify the seconds where its ok to take their mouse or cursor or whatever off of you so they can dps. Because they know that if the party wipes because enough healing wasn't going out, 85% of the time, someone from your party WILL chew them out. Your healer could be a 60 year old with arthritis or some shit. Think of factors as to why your healer is playing the way they do. You do your job and let them do theirs.

Then when your party dies, it will be your fault for being petty.

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Originally Posted by Kanitezz

Your healer could be a 60 year old with arthritis or some shit.

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That's a bit of a stretch. All these what if's. Lets just say it plainly "Your healer could be awful at this game." That's usually the case for 0 dps healers. 99% of the time, they are either bad or lazy. Casting a heal every 10 seconds and standing there. A sack of potatoes. Being a dpsing healer doesn't mean being on par with the DPS, nobody expects that! It means not being the potted plant of the party. Is it really THAT hard to cast 1 holy? One Aero III in the entire pull? Bane your dots and then go back to healing? Is it truely THAT hard? I could understand why people got scared when Cleric Stance existed. Your times could be off, you could missclick it. But now that its gone there is no excuse for a healer to do 0 dps. "But they are doing their job!" Yea a tank could flash his way through the dungeon and he'd be doing his job.

Honestly I rarely DPS the first time through content outside of reapplying my dots from time to time. This is especially true of raiding content where I get easily overwhelmed by all the new things coming at me and need a good moment or two to focus not just on healing but also learning the first. Once I've learned the fight though it's pretty much smooth sailing from then on out and I'll DPS as much as I can get away with. Still so long as the healer is keeping you alive I don't really think it's fair to judge them outside of high end content. A little extra healer DPS will help, yes, but if the player isn't comfortable then that potential for a wipe will make the run go all that much slower.

You say that'd be a solution to something, but that's something you do anyway!

That aside: There is no solution to lazy. There is no solution to bad. And the one or two people that actually have a medical disability can simply step up from the start and warn the group that they're not fully functional. People tend to be a lot more understanding if they know you're playing with your feet out of necessity rather than for the lulz.

I don't understand the mentality behind people who cry about this. "Boo-hoo. The healer is doing less work than me" Is that it? I don't understand why its such a big deal. People act like this is a IRL job and not some video game they're playing. Letting it stress them out and shorten their lifespan. Smh.

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Originally Posted by Kanitezz

I don't understand the mentality behind people who cry about this. "Boo-hoo. The healer is doing less work than me" Is that it? I don't understand why its such a big deal. People act like this is a IRL job and not some video game they're playing. Letting it stress them out and shorten their lifespan. Smh.

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Everyone should strive to not suck as nothing more than common courtesy to the groups they are with. "I'm lazy so you have to suffer" is no way to go about really anything.

It is sad to see how toxic the attitude of the community can get. Tanks are meant to get spanked - and Healers are meant to keep you alive. You want me to DPS during your pull? Cool, then I suggest not pulling so many mobs that I can barely keep you alive, Especially with the new content I will not right-out DPSing with the other 2 DPS. I will throw in my Aero's, and see how quickly you lose your health, and whatever attacks will or may happen that will drop people's health quickly so I have to react right away. If the group mobs pulled aren't going down as fast, may as well pull less, as some of the DPS often can't handle as many or do not know how to. Do not blame a Class that isn't even meant for DPSing for doing their job. Will do what I can to "DPS" with you, but my mainconcern should, and always will be, the health of the whole party. And if I feel there is not enough time to throw in a Holy, then I won't. This may change once everyone got their higher Gear and I feel more comfortable with the Dungeons, but again... Geez. It is so sad to see people go at each others throats lately. It is Healers who will get blamed for too big pulls and maybe someone ending up dead when our MP will be drained, we will get blamed if an DPS ran into every AoE they could find and we couldn't throw heals quickly enough even though you've been giving your best, and you'll blame us now for "not DPSing". Wearing STR Gear won't change any of your DPS. And it will not buy us 15 mins to get quicker out of a dungeon.

I recall a run of Omega v3. Party was topped off, regens up, Shield was up. Aoe went out, party got topped up and fey union was put on the tank. Tank was topped for the entire duration of it from 100 gauge and the co-healer just stood around doing nothing. Im all for keeping parties alive but there comes a time where people really should just use their abilities.

On a side note, this game as a whole, as I have experienced is never happy with healers unless it is a premade. People hate healers, you dps and get yelled at and you dont so you get yelled at, you get yelled at for 80% hp on tanks, you get yelled at for not letting regen do its job and be a over time heal or you get yelled at for letting regens heal over time. If the shoe fits, you suck and you need to stop. This even seems to follow through on development with a clear bias in some cases or at least a lack of understanding. From ARR to SB

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Originally Posted by Lildragora

Tank was topped for the entire duration of it from 100 gauge and the co-healer just stood around doing nothing. Im all for keeping parties alive but there comes a time where people really should just use their abilities.

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I agree that this shouldn't be a thing - then again, I have not yet fought this battle, so it may have just been that the Co-Healer was just on his / her toes seeing if they were needed or regaining some MP while they could - if it was just lazy standing around, well this should not be a thing. Sometimes the AoE will keep you busy enough to not cast much though.

And I also agree on the later half of your post - it really is like that. You can be a good healer and there will still be someone finding flaws or calling you out or just wanting to make you feel bad because they have a bad day or think they can do everything better than everyone else. But it should -NOT- be like that in a game we all try to enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Akelya

I agree that this shouldn't be a thing - then again, I have not yet fought this battle, so it may have just been that the Co-Healer was just on his / her toes seeing if they were needed or regaining some MP while they could - if it was just lazy standing around, well this should not be a thing. Sometimes the AoE will keep you busy enough to not cast much though.

And I also agree on the later half of your post - it really is like that. You can be a good healer and there will still be someone finding flaws or calling you out or just wanting to make you feel bad because they have a bad day or think they can do everything better than everyone else. But it should -NOT- be like that in a game we all try to enjoy.

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It's pretty clear the community overall just loves to hate on healers. I dont see tanks or DPS get nearly as many kup nuts thrown at them.

I've never healed. I don't like the idea of the responsibility and I like poking/smashing things more than making with the sparkle sparkle feelgood spells.

THis is my stance on healers: Did the tank die? Did we wipe/fail? if the answer to both questions is no, we're good. You may not be getting a commendation if the run took the whole time alotted.. but we're good.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I've never healed. I don't like the idea of the responsibility and I like poking/smashing things more than making with the sparkle sparkle feelgood spells.

THis is my stance on healers: Did the tank die? Did we wipe/fail? if the answer to both questions is no, we're good. You may not be getting a commendation if the run took the whole time alotted.. but we're good.

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This is often the issue. People never experienced the pressure on a Level 60 / now 70 Healer at all. If the run took longer than it should have, well - we are not DPS in the first place. But thank you for not putting us on the throw out list right away. :-)

a healer not doing damage -gasp-.... you mean they are healing you and the party! ...next thing you will want the dps to tank while you nap in the corner.

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Originally Posted by Lildragora

It's pretty clear the community overall just loves to hate on healers. I dont see tanks or DPS get nearly as many kup nuts thrown at them.

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I have never seen anyone defend a tank who goes afk after establishing a sufficient aggro lead. I have never seen anyone defend a dps who only auto attacks. I have seen several people defend healers who stand around doing absolutely nothing when they don't need to heal.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I have never seen anyone defend a tank who goes afk after establishing a sufficient aggro lead.

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Or worse, a secondary/tertiary tank in 8/24 mans that doesn't do anything while there's nothing for him to tank.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I have never seen anyone defend a tank who goes afk after establishing a sufficient aggro lead. I have never seen anyone defend a dps who only auto attacks. I have seen several people defend healers who stand around doing absolutely nothing when they don't need to heal.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Or worse, a secondary/tertiary tank in 8/24 mans that doesn't do anything while there's nothing for him to tank.

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Tanks can DPS simultaneously while doing their job of gaining hate. We have to stop healing to DPS. Off tanks have literally zero responsibility unless they are tanking and are thus FREE to DPS the whole time, and when they tank do to the previous truth that gaining hate and DPSing go hand-in-hand they can still DPS.

Healers have to stop healing to DPS. We also have to cast to DPS, some of which is as long or slightly longer than a GCD. Someone can easily die in that amount of time. Then there are mechanics. If DPS refuse or don't know the mechanics we have to be ready at a moments notice to heal them back up. Or if we don't know the mechanics then we have to be ready to heal the tank up as well.

So please stop your false comparisons because it is very different situations. No other role has to baby sit like we do. Sometimes you just got to watch the children be children so you can save them from themselves.

That being said I am a DPSing healer, just wanted to stop the ridiculousness of these flawed comparisons.

I couldn't care less if a healer does dps or not, I'd rather they keep the team alive as that is the main priority of their role, as someone thats only healed a handful of times and really didn't enjoy it, I take my hat off to you all, even those that don't dps, you keep my butt alive and that's all I care about.

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Originally Posted by Maku

Healers have to stop healing to DPS.

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And guess what else healers have to stop healing to do...

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I have seen several people defend healers who stand around doing absolutely nothing when they don't need to heal.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I have seen several people defend healers who stand around doing absolutely nothing when they don't need to heal.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

who stand around doing absolutely nothing

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

doing absolutely nothing

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The only flawed comparison is you trying to compare dpsing to standing around doing nothing.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

And guess what else healers have to stop healing to do...

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I'm going to assume you missed the part where I said that healers have to be ready at a moments notice to heal suddenly. Non-DPSing healers are not just standing around they are on point ready to heal. Your comparisons are still flawed.

I don't remember once comparing DPSing to standing around doing nothing. But read into it what you will and continue to forget to realize we decide if you ultimately die or not.

Again, a healer standing around doing nothing is monitoring health, mob moves, navigating mechanics that will wipe us instantly due to our substantially lower health pools and being on the ready at any moment to make up for the mistakes of others.

Fun fact: if you combine boths of Healers (average healer) dmg, you still get only half a DPS damage.... So yeah, if a party fails dont blame your healers, but your dps for not doing what they should ....

That reminds me of a fellow healer in Susano EX, who told me "Dont worry about heals, just DPS ill solo heal this!" (because yeah im an AST, AST have the worse DPS of them all, so sure lets make the ast dps... he was a WHM ) i was like, sure whatever, we started it was fine i was casting shields once in a while cuz im a healer not a dps, if he wanted i could have swiched to dps but whatever..... Anyway we wiped and got blamed for healing since he could do it all by himself and party got mad at me blah blah.... We did it again, this time i said "Fk it" and just Spammed Malefic, guess what? we wiped again and got blamed for NOT healing .... I left and never came back.

-A healer who likes to heal and DPS, but cant stand the hate comming from mediocre dps.

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Originally Posted by Viperz

If healers refuse to dps in dungeons well I'm going to use full str accessories and stay in deliverance, sword oath and no grit no problem.

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Don't you already use str accessories? As a healer who dose dps and then maybe next day I won't dps cuz I don't feel like giving it my all I'll just heal. I could care less what you do. You can spam flash for all I care.

I only play DPS. And when im going, im usually tunnel-vision DPS. Im looking at my cast bar(and the bosses too if they have specific attacks i need to watch out for), im looking at my buff timers and cooldowns, im looking at the ground near my feet to know if i need to dodge anything, im looking at the aggro gauge to know if/when to dump hate, if a lot of reses are going out im looking at the healers mana bar to know if they need an infusion, im looking at the LB gauge to see if i need to use it(though as a BLM its not usually my job) and im looking at the bosses health to know how close we are. With all that to focus on, im not looking too closely at what the rest of the party is doing. If im drawing aggro(even though ive used both my hate reduction skills) then ill see if the tank is using their stance(or if im just severely outgearing them). If the mob groups are taking too long to die, i might try to keep an eye on the other DPS to see what theyre doing - though the odds of me knowing their class well enough to critique are low so unless its obvious im not liable to say anything. If we all die to what should be an easy fight more then once, then and only then might i try to watch the healers actions.

So with that said, scrutinizing and criticizing healers is SUPER low on my checklist. About the only thing a healer can do to really set me off is to showily do nothing. If the incoming damage is low and youve gotten bored enough that you feel like dancing, or jumping around the room like a kangaroo then you are the problem. If the fight is so intense that you cant risk being unable to heal for the next 3 seconds or we'll all die, then just stand there looking intense and i swear i will never notice you. Ive got too many other things to look at(and again, the intense fight youd be healing a lot so even if i did look id see you keeping us alive and be glad you had my back). But for the dancing kangaroo healers(and no this isnt an exaggeration - i have seen it more then once) please stop it. Or play something else. Maybe youd enjoy bard.

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Originally Posted by Maku

I don't remember once comparing DPSing to standing around doing nothing.

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You responded

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Originally Posted by Maku

Tanks can DPS simultaneously while doing their job of gaining hate. We have to stop healing to DPS...That being said I am a DPSing healer, just wanted to stop the ridiculousness of these flawed comparisons.

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to

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I have seen several people defend healers who stand around doing absolutely nothing when they don't need to heal.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Or worse, a secondary/tertiary tank in 8/24 mans that doesn't do anything while there's nothing for him to tank.

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Neither of us said anything at all about dps yet here you are saying our comparisons are flawed because healers have to stop healing to dps. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Maku

Again, a healer standing around doing nothing is monitoring health, mob moves, navigating mechanics that will wipe us instantly due to our substantially lower health pools and being on the ready at any moment to make up for the mistakes of others.

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No, a healer standing around doing nothing is standing around doing nothing. Look at Frizze's post, they claim they tunnel vision and yet they still look at more than what you claim healers do when they're standing around doing nothing. It just makes zero sense to me why people are trying to lower the bar of acceptable play here.

Healer Checklist:
Focus Target Boss for Cast Bars
Boss Animations for abilities
Personal placement for dodging
DPS placement
Tanks Stance
Tanks CDs up
Remembering which tank/dps cds havent been used in awhile
Add spawn locations
Click Mechanic Locations
Personal Placement for AOE heals... In case you havent noticed sometimes, we have to move inside the boss just to hit the MT and melee, and hope ranged arent 25y behind them, the miss rate on Helios/AHelios/Succor/Indom/Assize/Medica I higher than youd think
Track our own CDs
Tank Health
DPS Health
Healer Health (imho the most commonly forgotten one)
Summoner/Machinist pet health (good healer will try to watch these when they can)
Predict the next 6-12s of incoming damage
Predict the next 30s of outgoing damage
Own MP Pool
Co-Healers MP Pool
Tank Mechanics
DPS Mechanics
Team MP/TP Pools
Co-Healers Cast Bar
SMN/RDM/PLD Cast Bars
Reduce GCD use when average MP pool of healers/rezzers gets too low
Enmity bars, whole group

Pretty sure i missed a few, but big point is, most of what we have to watch isn't even part of ourselves, on average we track between 5 and 40 entities. 5 being 4 players and an enemy, 40 being up to 24 players, and a combination of up to 16 pets/enemies/click mechanics. And if any of thise goes wrong or screws up, healers are usually the first line of response to it.

the priority of healer is to keep everyone alive and remove debuff
the priority of tank is to hold aggro and minimize dmg taken
you could not say a healer not doing their job for not doing dmg, they could be new to dungeon, they could be less competitive healer, not every healer that refuse to do dmg is lazy, and it is not a must, not in the past, not in present, and probably not in future
a healer doing dmg in dungeon is a good healer, a healer not doing dmg is not a bad healer, just less skilled
you could stay in DPS stance and use STR gear as long as you did your job, to hold aggro and keep the dmg u take low enough for healer to cure up
same story that a tank who could switch stance, while keeping aggro and not taking excessive dmg is a good tank, but a tank who stay in tank stance all the time is not a bad tank, just inexperience or less skilled

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

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Most of those aren't even exclusive to healers. Tanks and dps have to watch many things too, yet I don't see anyone saying they have to stand around doing nothing in order to track them, but apparently healers do from what I'm being told. I'm not saying healers need to be super pro, heal as little as possible and spend as much time as possible dpsing. I don't think anyone here is saying that. My problem is that many healers out there who are not new/learning could be doing something but instead choose to stand idle and do nothing whatsoever. There isn't enough info in the OP's post to tell for sure but I imagine this is what they're referring to as well.

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Originally Posted by Kanitezz

Your healer could STILL be getting used to how things play. Your healer could be one of those healers who cant really identify the seconds where its ok to take their mouse or cursor or whatever off of you so they can dps. Because they know that if the party wipes because enough healing wasn't going out, 85% of the time, someone from your party WILL chew them out. Your healer could be a 60 year old with arthritis or some shit. Think of factors as to why your healer is playing the way they do. You do your job and let them do theirs.

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This. All of this. Heck I've played with players who were over 50 and their reaction times, were just slower than normal. There's nothing wrong with that. They shouldn't be insulted by a tank because of it. The toxicity of tanks is growing and its a damn shame. It's why I picked it up. I will be the one person to not yell at you or be petty over slow dungeons, low dps from healers, etc...even when i heal, if you want to tank slow? all the more power too you. DO IT. being petty over it is just a waste of time and effort. No you're not helping. You were a noob once too. help people. don't make the game become a toxic cesspool.

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

a healer doing dmg in dungeon is a good healer, a healer not doing dmg is not a bad healer, just less skilled

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Someone once posted that when it comes to healer dps, it's usually not about skill, it's about participation. Due to that old thread in the healer forum where they literally argued if healers should dps when they can or just stand there and do nothing, I would have to agree. Sure, there are times when healers are new and they're trying to learn the patterns of incoming damage, and that's fine we all need to take some time to learn. But this isn't about healers learning. Most of the healers I see doing nothing are not new. In fact, a lot of the healers I see who are learning content do throw out some dps when they can. It's probably so little that it doesn't even matter, but they're trying which is a lot more than what I can say than the average player I run into in df/pf.

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Originally Posted by Viperz

If healers refuse to dps in dungeons well I'm going to use full str accessories and stay in deliverance, sword oath and no grit no problem.

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Do whatever you want.
You won't complain if you get kicked.

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Originally Posted by Maku

I'm going to assume you missed the part where I said that healers have to be ready at a moments notice to heal suddenly.

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And they can do that even while DPSing, because they only need to either briefly move or hit escape to cancel the damage cast if something happens to happen.

You do not have to complete it, you know? It doesn't lock you into it. Stance dancing is gone. It's fractions of a second slower than not doing anything and if you seriously are trying to tell me that these fractions of a second matter in this heavily scripted game, then I need to tell you that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. By the time fractions of a second matter, you have already royally fucked up.

It's a very convenient cop-out, but it's a cop-out nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Rhymenoserous

Everyone should strive to not suck as nothing more than common courtesy to the groups they are with. "I'm lazy so you have to suffer" is no way to go about really anything.

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So I've leveled a tank before a healer in this expansion, and I've noticed that, even with small trash packs, my health can go down pretty fast, even as I rotate cooldowns, and yet I've had healers regularly complimenting me on how easy I am to heal. Now that I am leveling my AST, I'm noticing the same trends as I was experiencing, except these tanks tend to pull 2 or 3 packs, meaning they take more damage. If you expect me to throw some DPS out while your health is dropping like a rock, then I'm sorry, but you are insane. My first and foremost priority is healing, and if that means I can't afford to waste a GCD on sending out a Combust, then I guess you aren't getting Combust.

DPs checks do not have healing dps factored in for a reason,its just something extra nice if the healer has the time. There job is to heal not DPS, the reason they have some dps capabilitys is so they are able to solo content such as leaves ,solo trials,etc. I know this for a fact is because we intentionally desinged it that way in pre-Alpha, orginally there was not going to be any dps capabilitys in healers,it had to be done that way so they can solo contents just like the rest of the party. The DPS make-up of a party does not have healing DPS factored in for a reason.

I don't tank, but I do a bit of healing on the side. If I were to tank (Duty Finder), and I ran across a healer that wasn't doing any damage, I'd politely ask them if they were ok, and reassure them that I know what I'm doing and I should be able to provide them with ample windows to do damage and still keep the team afloat. Maybe even offer to move a bit slow at first so they can get their feet wet and their confidence up.

If they were jerks about it, or I figure out that they're just lazy, then I'm pulling half the dungeon. If they are going to sit there and do nothing but heal out of spite or sloth, then I'm going to give them some healing to do. I'm the tank. I dictate the initial pace, and can use it as a motivational weapon. Granted, they can just not heal me and then I have to deal with that whole issue. Still, tank. Instaqueue.

Now, if this is a Party Finder affair, then I would have advertised ahead of time that if you don't DPS, I'm putting you to the curb.

I will agree that I don't see any of the roles get as much grief about damage output than healers. Maybe because it is the only role where damage is 100% separated from their core duty.

Or you could make your own party. I don't know why people stress out about how other people play the game when you don't have to play with them. When you play with random people you take what you get or leave. It is really that simple. If a healer doesn't want to dps who cares. They can do whatever they want. You can't force people to do what you want. The only person you have control over is yourself. You made the choice to play with a random person vs playing with a healer that dps. So the only person you have to blame is yourself. Being passive-aggressive accomplishes nothing.

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Originally Posted by Chrallmal

If they were jerks about it, or I figure out that they're just lazy, then I'm pulling half the dungeon.

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I am so glad you are not a tank.

Pulling half the dungeon to antagonize your healer without taking the two DPS in the dungeon into account is just plain stupid.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Pulling half the dungeon to antagonize your healer without taking the two DPS in the dungeon into account is just plain stupid.

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Allow me to clarify. Firstly, "Pulling half the dungeon" is hyperbole for dramatic effect, and not to be taken literally. Secondly, would you please explain why you believe that the DPS have anything to do with this?

EDIT: The "secondly" statement reads off as too confrontational. As I said, I am not tank. I don't know any better. I'm asking for an explanation in earnest, not out of spite as if I'm right and you are wrong.

if a healer does DPS we are bad because our job is to heal
if a healer does not DPS they are lazy
if your team completes the dungeon with no screw ups the healer could STILL have baned more/holy'd more/used more cards or gravity
if your team does not complete the dungeon with no screw ups obviously it is the healer's fault
before SB i was all pro healer dps because healing was so retardedly easy

while now i still think people should try to do as best as they can, I frankly do not even care anymore, we're gonna get shat on anyway

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Originally Posted by Chrallmal

Allow me to clarify. Firstly, "Pulling half the dungeon" is hyperbole for dramatic effect, and not to be taken literally. Secondly, would you please explain why you believe that the DPS have anything to do with this?

EDIT: The "secondly" statement reads off as too confrontational. As I said, I am not tank. I don't know any better. I'm asking for an explanation in earnest, not out of spite as if I'm right and you are wrong.

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Because the two dps that are just happy they finally made it into the dungeon are stuck in the middle of the this. If the the team wipes because people are being petty other innocent people are being punished. The dps may not care that the healer is not dps and just want to make through the dungeon. Many times the dps are left in parties waiting for a new replacement or back in the queue because tanks or healers only think about themselves and their instant queues. DPS feelings matter too lol