Kugane Castle

The Expert Roulette sent me there this afternoon,and I am currently trying to figure out what's with some of the hired goons ninjas we fight. Most of them appear to be hyuran like most Far Eastern denizens, but some have rather odd proportions. Any idea what is up with those unusually tall shinobi? They're about as subtle as those gigantic tonberry stalkers in Wanderer's Palace.

They are mechanical afaik, since they are unusually tall and are missing a part of their waist. Robots wouldnt be too far fetched either as their is other robots in the dungeon.

Yes, I was quite perturbed by those giant ninja mooks. But based on the ability names that the boss version utilizes, we can surmise they are clockwork automatons of Hingashi Construction. Both the Hingans and the Domans employ heavily armored golems hefting blades so these clockwork automatons are simply more advanced versions (maybe imbued with a spirit) which is capable of more advanced attacks.

I imagine the threat of employing such mechanical menaces on the field of battle is a partial reason for why the Garlean Empire had not bothered trying to invade Hingashi. The ones we fight were employed by a wealthy merchant, the ones the Bakufu Government retain are probably extremely dangerous on the attack.

Which makes me wonder. Would it be better to employ shinobi or just make a ton of these cloackwork ninjas instead? Considering they don't need to eat, sleep or drink, they could stakeout out a place for an indefinite amount of time. Then again a person would be more subtle than a nine foot giant with a huge shuriken on its back. Guess it would depend on the mission.

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Originally Posted by Alsbet

Which makes me wonder. Would it be better to employ shinobi or just make a ton of these cloackwork ninjas instead? Considering they don't need to eat, sleep or drink, they could stakeout out a place for an indefinite amount of time. Then again a person would be more subtle than a nine foot giant with a huge shuriken on its back. Guess it would depend on the mission.

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If these giant clockwork ninjas are expensive to maintain and field while lacking the things that make a Shinobi truly useful to their lord (subterfuge) then their use would be as situational as with any other golem. And in Doma, we saw the Empire somehow capture and re-purpose the metal golems originally created by the Domans and use them as sentries to patrol a destroyed town with simple kill orders. Which I for one consider a major drawback.

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Originally Posted by Kyran-Varlsen

I imagine the threat of employing such mechanical menaces on the field of battle is a partial reason for why the Garlean Empire had not bothered trying to invade Hingashi. The ones we fight were employed by a wealthy merchant, the ones the Bakufu Government retain are probably extremely dangerous on the attack.

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Hingashi made a pact with Garlemald if I recall correctly. Garlemald also doesn't raze or oppress every nation it comes across - it's been confirmed in-game that some places remain completely unchanged by Garlemald's presence and that life can go on as normal.

Well of course. No Empire can conquer non-stop and even should the provinces of Doma and Ala Mhigo have been pacified the more likely target for Garlean expansion would have been the Eorzean City States. But assuming the Garleans conquered all of Eorzea and pacified Doma, then an invasion of Hingashi would be inevitable - if not an attempt at least. The Garleans see little need for trade, largely because they are self-sufficient but also to prevent the possible leak of magitek technology to the other nations. We wouldn't even have proper airships in Eorzea were it not for Cid and Garlond Ironworks - which sells to everyone from Ul'dahn Merchants to Sky Pirates (the latter most likely through front buyers). So it's not like they value Hingashi as a trade partner. Rather, an embassy is maintained for mundane diplomatic matters as well as espionage or subterfuge activities.

What I mean to say is, the Garlean Empire would rather attack the divided Eorzean City-States who only boast cannons and regular infantry as opposed to the United Country of Hingashi with Cannons, Golems, and an organized fighting force with a disciplined samurai core.

I'm believe both the doman and hingan "machina" for lack of a better term are similar to mammets from a technological standpoint based on one of the sidequests in yanxia

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Originally Posted by Kyran-Varlsen

Yes, I was quite perturbed by those giant ninja mooks. But based on the ability names that the boss version utilizes, we can surmise they are clockwork automatons of Hingashi Construction. Both the Hingans and the Domans employ heavily armored golems hefting blades so these clockwork automatons are simply more advanced versions (maybe imbued with a spirit) which is capable of more advanced attacks.

I imagine the threat of employing such mechanical menaces on the field of battle is a partial reason for why the Garlean Empire had not bothered trying to invade Hingashi. The ones we fight were employed by a wealthy merchant, the ones the Bakufu Government retain are probably extremely dangerous on the attack.

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The final boss is also some sort of automaton, though clearly more advanced and at least partially self directing. It would appear that Hingashi are quite far along in this particular field.

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Originally Posted by Kedan

The final boss is also some sort of automaton, though clearly more advanced and at least partially self directing. It would appear that Hingashi are quite far along in this particular field.

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I'm not too sure he's supposed to be an automaton. As to what he IS in XIV, I'm not sure but I highly doubt he's inorganic.

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Originally Posted by Kedan

The final boss is also some sort of automaton, though clearly more advanced and at least partially self directing. It would appear that Hingashi are quite far along in this particular field.

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Wait, are you talking about Yojimbo? Did you not play FFX? He is very likely a Primal of some sort considering he was a summonable in past games. I mean sure the name Yojimbo has been used on minor enemies and bosses, but he looks exactly as he did in FFX when he was a summonable.

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Originally Posted by MercuryD

I'm not too sure he's supposed to be an automaton. As to what he IS in XIV, I'm not sure but I highly doubt he's inorganic.

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Again, he is likely a divine manifestation of the worship of money and the desire to have it. Considering in the Hildebrand Storyline (not entirely canon) that one man was able to put a chicken on top of some boxes and summon a primal by remembering a friend then it is entirely possible that Yojimbo was summoned by some similar means by criminal elements within Hingashi. It may be that money alone sustains him, or that he just uses it to buy more crystals to sustain himself. If so, he is a very different, subtle and intelligent Primal from those we have met before.

Currently Yojimbo is not listed as a Primal because the story has not revealed him as such. So he could still be something else entirely, like a Voidsent which, as Hildebrand's story also showed (maybe not canon), can indeed live in the world without much trouble and even take an interest in mortal commerce.

There aren't just hyurs. The blades and jonins are Auri (mostly Xaela.) Which is interesting, but you find Xaela in Kugane with Hingashian names.

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Originally Posted by LystAP

There aren't just hyurs. The blades and jonins are Auri (mostly Xaela.) Which is interesting, but you find Xaela in Kugane with Hingashian names.

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True, which does point to a Xaela presence in Hingashi that predates the closing of the land to outsiders. However, this is not indicative of an unknown race of peoples that could produce towering ninjas among their numbers.

The secondary boss who is the tall ninja type, Dojun-Maru, utilizes an attack called Clockwork Raiton. As clockwork robots are a staple to fantasy series then it stands to reason that Dojun-Maru and others like him are just that. The nonboss versions are called "Karakuri Onmitsu"

Karakuri puppets are traditional Japanese mechanized puppets or automata, originally made from the 17th century to 19th century.

Onmitsu is another word for spy, often used to describe ninjas in modern interpretations.

In other words their name literally translates to "Puppet Ninjas."

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Originally Posted by Kyran-Varlsen

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As interesting as this elaborate theory is, as far as we know, Yojimbo is just a very skilled mercenary; I see no reason to assume that he's a Primal just because he was a summon in FFX. Diabolos looks almost identical to his FFVIII incarnation, after all, and he's not a Primal. Until there's even a hint of Yojimbo being supernatural, I think it's safe to assume that he isn't.

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Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji

As interesting as this elaborate theory is, as far as we know, Yojimbo is just a very skilled mercenary; I see no reason to assume that he's a Primal just because he was a summon in FFX. Diabolos looks almost identical to his FFVIII incarnation, after all, and he's not a Primal. Until there's even a hint of Yojimbo being supernatural, I think it's safe to assume that he isn't.

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Diabolos is a voidsent, which is another possibility for Yojimbo I mentioned. Given the guy's stature, fighting skill and ability to easily evade authorities despite his distinct look I find it difficult to believe he is not more than just a very skilled mercenary. There are a few beings that could match him in height: Xenos, Ivon Coeurlfist (ghost), and Hakuro the Whitefang. But its seems a stretch to assume Yojimbo is merely a tall kith. As a voidsent he would be supernatural without the destructive nature of a primal to burden his career.

Could Yojimbo be something similar to Gilgamesh? Something clearly not of this world but definitely not a primal or similar manifestation?

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Could Yojimbo be something similar to Gilgamesh? Something clearly not of this world but definitely not a primal or similar manifestation?

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Gilgamesh is certainly no mere mortal given the nature of his boss fight. FFXIV has had Inter-dimensional travelers before from other parts of the franchise. These at first seemed little more than semi-canon cameos (such as Snow from FFXIII) but since the Warriors of Darkness and the Ascians found a way to travel between worlds then the concept is at-least within the setting.

While Yojimbo and Gilgamesh could just be voidsent summoned in Othard who have taken to wandering, they could also be inter-dimensional travelers who go where they may find what they seek, whether it is money or swords.

pls do take in consideration the possibility that yojimbo's stature might be exxagerated for gameplay purpose

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Originally Posted by Remedi

pls do take in consideration the possibility that yojimbo's stature might be exxagerated for gameplay purpose

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Is that a thing in FF14? Is there a confirmed instance where someone is really big in a fight but when the cut-scene starts they are normal size?

I remember Ultros from the Hildebrand series. In cutscenes he was short but in our fight with him he grew to be very big. But, he is a voidsent and so his nature is subject to change. Not enough change to stop being ugly for the sake of the ladies perhaps, but still. So is there a kith or non-kith to which this principle applies?

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Originally Posted by Kyran-Varlsen

Is that a thing in FF14?

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Are you kidding me? It's constant -- go look at any "playable race" mob in just about any dungeon and you'll find that they are slightly bigger and taller than the player versions for the purposes of gameplay visibility. It's much easier to tell if you're of the same race as them.

Bosses especially, of course. Go have a look at the Ruby Princess, second boss of Shisui. She's bigger than a Roegadyn!

I wouldn't say it's constant, take zenos for example he's not that big I might be wrong but I think he's the same size as us more or less, but then you have example like the ruby princess

That said I don't think yojimbbo is a mechanical thing, It's just possible that those big creatuires inside kgane castle are simply monster/beastmen

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I wouldn't say it's constant, take zenos for example he's not that big I might be wrong but I think he's the same size as us more or less, but then you have example like the ruby princess

That said I don't think yojimbbo is a mechanical thing, It's just possible that those big creatuires inside kgane castle are simply monster/beastmen

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Again, they are "Puppet Ninjas."

The nonboss versions are called "Karakuri Onmitsu"

Karakuri puppets are traditional Japanese mechanized puppets or automata, originally made from the 17th century to 19th century.

Onmitsu is another word for spy, often used to describe ninjas in modern interpretations.

In other words their name literally translates to "Puppet Ninjas."

Better examples of bosses being larger than any player despite being of a playable race: Captain Madison in Sastasha normal (Midlander Hyur, taller than the tallest Roegadyn), Commander Ricki and Mistbeard in Hullbreaker Isle Hard (Mi'qote and Roe respectfully, but larger than their playable race and even their npc models outside the fight).

I'm a fan of thinking that Yojimbo himself is some kind of clockwork puppet, but that's also just because I just really like clockwork robots in fiction and don't want Kugane Castle to be the end of it.

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Originally Posted by Akonyl

I'm a fan of thinking that Yojimbo himself is some kind of clockwork puppet, but that's also just because I just really like clockwork robots in fiction and don't want Kugane Castle to be the end of it.

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Yojimbo is most likely going to appear again later but certainly not a clockwork robot since he has a reputation already as a merc.

I suspect the clockwork puppets will be explained later as a side story thing. Maybe as a Dungeon story where we enter a creepy Clockwork puppet making place.

I believe Gilgamesh is officially the same Gilgamesh in every ff game and hops between worlds collecting weapons...

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Originally Posted by Kyran-Varlsen

I imagine the threat of employing such mechanical menaces on the field of battle is a partial reason for why the Garlean Empire had not bothered trying to invade Hingashi. The ones we fight were employed by a wealthy merchant, the ones the Bakufu Government retain are probably extremely dangerous on the attack.

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I thought the Garlean Empire never bothered to invade Hingashi was because they were afraid of their Samurai with Katanas of mass destruction?

Katanas are thrice as sharp as Eorzean swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a paladin wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

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Originally Posted by Eyvhokan

I thought the Garlean Empire never bothered to invade Hingashi was because they were afraid of their Samurai with Katanas of mass destruction?

Katanas are thrice as sharp as Eorzean swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a paladin wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

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Of course, because we all know the Domans didn't have Katanas to stop the Empire. Moving on...

There does actually appear to be a new Beastman Race in Kugane Castle. There are these flying enemies towards the end of the dungeon before Yojimbo. At first, I assumed they were men in flying costume - but they look too organic, too fleshed out. I jotted down their name earlier but lost it and I am sure a rough translation would shed light on their nature.

It's implied that hingashi and thavnir are left alone by garlemald for economic reasons. Airship fuel distance limits have been mentioned in the story so it can also be infered that oceans help limit garlemald as the 3 named known free nations prior to 4.0 Thavnir Hingashi Sharlyan are all island nations.

Interesting.

Also, I did the Kugane Castle dungeon again and wrote down the name of the flying enemies we face: "Karasu Tengu"

Karasu seems a Japanese word for crow.

Tengu is a type of legendary creature found in Japanese folk religion and are also considered a type of Shinto god (kami) or yōkai (supernatural beings). Although they take their name from a dog-like Chinese demon (Tiangou), the tengu were originally thought to take the forms of birds of prey, and they are traditionally depicted with both human and avian characteristics. The earliest tengu were pictured with beaks, but this feature has often been humanized as an unnaturally long nose, which today is widely considered the tengu's defining characteristic in the popular imagination.

So Karasu Tengu roughly translates to "Crow Kami." I don't think these creatures are demons or kami because they were in the employ of a merchant. There were summoners to be sure but they chose to summon their demons on sighting the adventurers. They would certainly make an interesting new tribe regardless.

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Originally Posted by Kyran-Varlsen

[re: karasu tengu]

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Not quite - karasu tengu/crow tengu, as a subset of tengu are their own established thing in Japanese mythology, not something FFXIV mashed up. They're so frequently used that it's hard to attribute a specific story to them as they appear in modern days; they're not divinities exactly, but kind of a mountain/forest-dwelling being, kind of comparable to how dwarves/elves/goblins are used in western fantasy? AFAIK their key attribute is being good at things, like magic or martial arts, and teaching those things to special humans.

Their appearance in FFXIV is a pretty standard design for them. Crow dudes with a specific style of clothing.

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Originally Posted by holographica

Not quite
Their appearance in FFXIV is a pretty standard design for them. Crow dudes with a specific style of clothing.

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Well yes, but does that make them a new Beast Tribe?

It seems only those beasts who can speak the common tongue are considered beast tribes