how much party damage do BRDs and MCHs actually give?

in total party damage %. anyone know? I'm not good at math

I'm curious about this too. I see people say MCH does least % in dps but I haven't seen anyone actually cite a source for the statements.

there is no fixed %

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Originally Posted by arctic

I'm curious about this too. I see people say MCH does least % in dps but I haven't seen anyone actually cite a source for the statements.

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1.3157895% for MCH
1.8757237% scaling down per exisiting crit/dhit for BRD

Naturally this is in a vacuum. Things like burst windows, factoring in Foe's manipulation, and a whole slew of things changes things dramatically And the only source is basic math. If we were to get really crazy and put crit and dhit contribution at lowest values that you'd get something like 1.7%.

I read some where that mch give contribute 1.5 and bard 1.75% so that's not exactly far from your estimate!

I'm not sure how anybody could get 1.5% for MCH.

I just had my friend parse with HC and without HC over 3 minutes and he went from 3880 to a bit over 4000

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Originally Posted by Elnidfse

1.3157895% for MCH
1.8757237% scaling down per exisiting crit/dhit for BRD

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I believe 4 numbers after the decimal point to be way enough if you really want to be accurate, more numbers look really negligible x)

Less than an AST I'd say. Granted, AST probably doesn't contribute as much personal DPS but since they are a healer it doesn't matter.

Personally I'd wish they would push both MCH and BRD hard into the support direction, keeping their DPS as is, increasing their support skills substantially so the group actually feels the impact of it.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

I believe 4 numbers after the decimal point to be way enough if you really want to be accurate, more numbers look really negligible x)

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I copy pasted straight out of my spreadsheet and cared so little about cleaning it up that I had to go back and edit some flavor text in

How did you get that number because I got 3% for BRDs passive buff alone

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How did you get that number because I got 3% for BRDs passive buff alone

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Let's for an instant assume crit works like dhit. It doesn't, but for the sake of simplicity let's say it does and state that it didn't scale in damage the higher it went per individual players crit stat. we have x(1+0.45*(2/100)). with x=damage done this comes out to x(1.009). In other words, a 0.9% damage increase. This value goes down the higher the amount of preexisting crit exists on the individual players in question. To show this. The base crit value is 5% (actually 4.95% but again, hypothetical example). This gives you a 2.25% damage boost. If you then add 2% to the existing crit value (as the bonus is additive not multiplicative), your crit boost at 7%. The damage relative damage boost of that crit goes from 0.9% to 0.88%.

There is no way in the world that a 2% bonus to crit could give a 3% bonus to raid damage. The real heavy hitters of a BRD's rDPS utility comes from Battle Voice (which actually IS an over 3% increase for it's duration but only for it's duration) and Foe's.

Mch hypercharge have 30 sec duration and 120 sec cooldown? So uptime is 30/120 = 0.25 = 25%. Lets think each dps class do around 4k dps tanks 2,5k dps and healers 1.5k dps raid dps would be 24k. 24k x 0.05(5%damage buff) = 1200 dps. 1200 x 0.25(25% uptime) = 300 raid dps. So mch bring 300 more raid dps(1.25%) from their hypercharge + mana and tp buffs potentially bring some dps as well, but it is pretty hard calculate suddenly.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Mch hypercharge have 30 sec duration and 120 sec cooldown? So uptime is 30/120 = 0.25 = 25%. Lets think each dps class do around 4k dps tanks 2,5k dps and healers 1.5k dps raid dps would be 24k. 24k x 0.05(5%damage buff) = 1200 dps. 1200 x 0.25(25% uptime) = 300 raid dps. So mch bring 300 more raid dps(1.25%) from their hypercharge + mana and tp buffs potentially bring some dps as well, but it is pretty hard calculate suddenly.

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You could just say 0.25 uptime 5% dmg increase. 0.25*5% = 1.25%. It should work regardless of what numbers of theoretical dps you throw in. Bard is harder to calculate because 2% crit is relative to the classes and their current critical ratings.

Tactician and Refresh can also be considered party damage buffs during heavy AoE situations, but exactly what percentage that gives would be virtually impossible to calculate as it depends heavily on party composition and kill speed.
There also aren't currently any heavy AoE situations in progression content.

Less than 2% overall damage buff seems incredibly underwhelming though, doesn't it?
~300 dps contribution if the party is putting out 16k dps?

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Originally Posted by Elnidfse

Let's for an instant assume crit works like dhit. It doesn't, but for the sake of simplicity let's say it does and state that it didn't scale in damage the higher it went per individual players crit stat. we have x(1+0.45*(2/100)). with x=damage done this comes out to x(1.009). In other words, a 0.9% damage increase.
There is no way in the world that a 2% bonus to crit could give a 3% bonus to raid damage. The real heavy hitters of a BRD's rDPS utility comes from Battle Voice (which actually IS an over 3% increase for it's duration but only for it's duration) and Foe's.

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Isnt the base chance 35% + chance from rating bonus damage. So x(1+0.35*(2/100)) which brings that down to 0.7% damage increase unless we consider that everyone has at least 5% crit naked and then it moves up slightly.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Mch hypercharge have 30 sec duration and 120 sec cooldown? So uptime is 30/120 = 0.25 = 25%. Lets think each dps class do around 4k dps tanks 2,5k dps and healers 1.5k dps raid dps would be 24k. 24k x 0.05(5%damage buff) = 1200 dps. 1200 x 0.25(25% uptime) = 300 raid dps. So mch bring 300 more raid dps(1.25%) from their hypercharge + mana and tp buffs potentially bring some dps as well, but it is pretty hard calculate suddenly.

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Actually if we were to use really basic math it's more of a 24 sec (on average) duration on a 120 sec cooldown. (This is because the first hit will more likely than not be waiting on refresh wasting 3-3.5seconds and the last hit may have the effect fall off). So for the purpose of averages it's 24/120 = 20%. And mind you this is being GENEROUS. The average Hypercharge uptime for (let's say Susan) for players from 99th to 50th averages at 15% uptime. But for this example we'll use 20%

Uptime: 24/120=20%
change/increase: 5%/5%

Using your 5% example on a 1200 number it's 1200 * 20% = 240 (or 1%)

But in reality it's not EVEN this high. Using Susan as stated above, the average hypercharge uptime is a mere 15% on average. The highest is in the upper 16% range.
So

Uptime: 15/120 = 12.5%
change/increase: 5%/5%

Using the same pool of 1200. 1200 * 15% = 150 (0.625%)
Lakshmi, by the by, can have a hypercharge up time of your 25% but for most experienced players middle from 15% to sub 20%. So around 1%

The reason we use 20% is because it's mathematically the most optimal uptime given factors that are out of your control on the turret alone, never you mind mechanics.

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Originally Posted by KaiSunstrider

Isnt the base chance 35% + chance from rating bonus damage. So x(1+0.35*(2/100)) which brings that down to 0.7% damage increase unless we consider that everyone has at least 5% crit naked and then it moves up slightly.

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It moves down slightly not up. Crit buffs suffer DR. The same as Dhit buff. Because the more the player already has, the less he benefits from it relatively. In the case of Direct hit and Battle Voice. It goes from a potential 4% down to an (impossible to satisfy the conditions mind you) 3-3.25%. Again that % is only if somehow in this game it became possible to achieve an 85% crit rate. Also to answer your question, no: Crits are 45% base + rating bonus damage. And since I'm editing this again for the umpteenth time I would also like to bring into attention that crit buffs do not change crit damage the way your crit rating does.

So not x(1.+0.35*(2/100) On the assumption that we're ignoring damage gain from critical rating
But instead x(1+0.45*(2/100) With the knowledge that this value is actually lower
Since I've gone back, let's show you an experiment using 300 as base and comparing the increase at 0 crit (impossible) versus the 5% base critical (the norm).

300(1+0.45*(2/100) = 302.7 (2% crit provides a 0.9% dps increase (ordinarily we'd round to 1%))
300(1+0.45*(5/100) = 306.75 (At the default rate. 5% crit gives you a 2.25% damage increase)
300(1+0.45*(7/100) = 309.45 (Over the 5% increase (306.75) our 2% crit in this scenario only gives a 0.88% dps increase)

As you can see. The higher the pre-existing crit. The lower the overall contribution. This goes up to an impossible but theoretical increase of only 0.625% dps increase if by some chance you were applying this 2% to a preexisting 98% chance to crit.

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Originally Posted by paoweeotter

I read some where that mch give contribute 1.5 and bard 1.75% so that's not exactly far from your estimate!

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This example is going to be for anybody who wants to theory math at people; Because I'm in the middle of this we'll take things in a void and show step by step what addition we use to get to what we do. Theoretically hypercharge and BRDs passive 2% crit would be the same RDPS increase. 1%. With the balance coming in that hypercharge will apply during burst phases for a larger average t(rDPS) But crit suffers from (admittedly small DR) and Hypercharge will never achieve the coveted 20% uptime ever. So we in reality have BRD 2%crit (0.8-0.9%) and MCH Hypercharge (0.625%-1%). BRDs also have Foe's (0.3%) and Battle Voice (0.325%(really 0.38%)-0.4%).


In conclusion
MCH being averaged from 0.625% to 1% at best (1.3% if we apply vacuum math and assume boss dies at the end of final HC application and every hypercharge is 100% optimal for 25% uptime)
BRDs having anywhere from 1.48% to a much more realistic 1.7-1.8% (with it scaling somewhat depending on pre-existing dhit and crit on individual party members)

Disclaimer
This shouldn't be taken as anything more than the math it is. Things like player execution and fights will always factor more importantly than theory. In this context, theoretical maximums can seldom ever be reached. It should also be mentioned that due to the multiplicative nature of flat damage increases, the numbers vary slightly when used in conjunction of other jobs personal or raid dps increases.