Hot Shot is Ability Bloat

First and Foremost:

I won't say that I am a machinist main, nor will I say it's 70 yet. I'm sure that (like so many other jobs) having access to your full kit makes a job feel complete, instead of a watered down husk that leaves much to be desired (pre 50 Dragoon). But one thing I have painfully noticed, especially since 4.0 is how entirely useless and redundant Hot Shot feels.


With the changes to Gauss Barrel, (increasing dmg output by 5%) It would have been no consequence to load the 5% dmg increase from Hot Shot onto it and eliminated the skill in it's entirety. Yes, the action generates "slightly" more heat than regular weapon skills, but is that really that significant of a reason? Really?

Furthermore, It feels awkward to use in most (all) cases, you don't want to use ammo on it, it doesn't generate heat if you do, and the extra 25 potency doesn't even really bother me. What this leaves you is a WS you want to use, but don't feel like wasting ammo on, so it forces you to consider using it before you even have ammo, or blowing a quick reload on it (which ideally is the best option available to you when you already have ammo)

Constantly needing to refresh it every 30 seconds is one thing too. Why does it matter? I know that DRG has a similar move in Heavy Thrust, and it's highly likely this was thought of in it's making. But that button doesn't really feel that good to press on DRG, either. Just another layer of complexity (that feels unfun and unoriginal) to keep up on.

That being said, Hot Shot Literally could have endless potential. It's effect could be changed entirely, it could be removed entirely for something else, there is so much this ability could be, instead of what it is.

It could be a DoT

Hot Shot sounds like it would burn. Why can't hot shot be the DoT WS that MCH lost? doing initial damage, and burning for over time damage? Great idea.

It could be a Buff

So MCH has this whole heat mechanic as of 4.0, it could buff or otherwise augment any one of the "heated" weapon skills that you use once your heat gauge is 50 or above, adding complexity that feels fun, and less generic. Split, Slug, or Clean shot could all push forth a completely different additional effect, depending on which one Hot shot was buffed to be used on.

It could be erased, and literally anything else could replace it

The possibilities are endless. Grenado shot back, Lead shot even. To be be honest Any variety of alternative AoE move would be stellar. Spread shot feels bad to use, and lining up the AoE feels weird in moments where you aren't sure if it's going to hit everything. Even bard has more than one AoE, one of which is on a CD much like Ricochet, but has a chance to be refreshed, like blood letter.

I feel like after MCH's opener, they are stuck pressing 1 until RNG prayer is heard

Hot Shot aside, (and it's replacement could be any number of fix to this) MCH feels like it runs out of steam very quickly. They do their opener, reload/hyper/combo/OGCDS, and then they're just... done. That was it, nothing to manage, nothing to prioritize, just. 1, 1, 1, maybe 2... While waiting for reload to refresh, and waiting for OCGDS to come back up.

I'm not entirely sure if this is intentional, but it's physical ranged equivalent feels constantly busy for much longer. I don't like comparing jobs, but SE seems to be hellbent on homogenizing similarly roled jobs as much as they can, instead of increasing their diversity into unique strengths/weaknesses for the sake of "balance," (it can't be unbalanced if it's the same thing)

Final thoughts:

I dunno. I want to like MCH. I want to give it a chance. But it's not even numbers that bug me. It's how it just doesn't feel like it's identity is fully realized. It's a collage of a couple of different ideas that seems hastily and hap-hazardly put together. It's like SE wanted to make the musketeer job the community demanded to have, but didn't want it to be just so. So they added a turret. But then... even that's where I lose them. What even is a machinist? This entire job feels like it's 3 expansions too early.

It should have been a garlemald job

Edit: I don't mean to say that Hot Shot should be removed, especially completely. (Title is somewhat misleading, forgive me) My point was to invoke creative thought on how this Action could feel more fun to use. To see others' ideas on how it could play more into Machinist's central kit. Thematically, it doesn't make sense for it to give a slight damage buff. Thematically, it generating heat makes more sense, but beyond this, it should feel more fun to use.

But, aside from this, I look forward to seeing whatever changes they get

Make it apply the piercing debuff, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Chiraisu

First and Foremost:

I won't say that I am a machinist main, nor will I say it's 70 yet.

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I wanted to highlight this first. You don't main it, yet you say one of the most basic skills, just like BRD's Straight Shot and DRG's Heavy Thrust - both of which increase your damage - is an ability bloat?

MCH lost more than it gained, and the empty slots in my second hotbar are proof of that. Not to mention with all the things that currently just don't work/work well/conflicts with others, you choose the one thing that was the least changed? Hot Shot IS a buff. Keep it up just like the BRD/DRG skills I mentioned before.

Please actually play and level the job before you go trying to speak on it at length.

It's not even that hard keeping Hot Shot up. I'm terrible with buff uptime, and yet I don't have much of an issue with it. I've also made a few mistakes and hit Overheat with Flamethrower and Stabilizer on cooldown (I get tired, leave me alone) and Hot Shot is a great tool to get my heat back up. Hot Shot is super not the problem with machinists; rather it's their often conflicting toolkit, low damage with little utility, and overall punishing gameplay.

for one straight shot is nothing like hot shot. it gives crit and it can be used in a rotation easily. hot shot is so annoyingly stupid. we don't need the extra heat so maybe if they took the heat and ammo use away from it I would say its not bad. but it completely ruins my heat gauge rhythm. I have a 70 machinist that I wish I could main. they made the balance so unfair towards bard. bard has lots of support buffs while machinists has like 1? maybe 2 if u count a 5 second dmg red on boss lol. and I'm not counting the cross roles bc obviously bard has those too. unfortunately I'm never going to be able to bring my machinist into a raid group bc bard is just so much more useful. warning you now don't main machinist until they fix the class bc right now its the worst unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by SkywenXRosethron

warning you now don't main machinist until they fix the class bc right now its the worst unfortunately.

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You can't tell me what to do! *sass*

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Please actually play and level the job before you go trying to speak on it at length.

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You're right. I don't have it 70. It's currently 50. I also touched on that I was positive post 60 stuff is likely and largely more fun, cause it damn well looks like it. And I have extensively examined it's kit for several hours. It's what I like doing. Sorry if what
I said hit a nerve.

I choose hot shot not because it's the most conflicting part of the kit, but because it's (one of) the easiest thing to improve upon. Straight shot will always be infinitely more useful than this current iteration of hot shot. Critical works integrally with bard's kit. Hot shot is "just" extra damage. Something Gauss barrel already does, with no gcd, accidental ammo use, or needless heat gen.

There are many things Mch can be changed and improved upon, but this was the safest thing I felt I could speak on.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

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I think he is more refering to how Hot Shot is just there as a Damage buff only to maintain every 30 seconds instead of contributing to the MCH mechanics.

It hardly compare to Bard's Straight Shot because Straight shot not only increase Crit chance but also contributes to Bard's mechanic since increase the chance of DoT Crit happening which then goes into Bard's Songs to proc more for each Song's Mechanics. Also Stright Shot gets a chance to become Instant Crit if Heavy Shot is used.

Hot Shot is not actually contribute directly to the MCh mechanic as it is more about using it on the right time being between 50 to 90 Heat so the MCH player does not accidently Overheat when trying to recharge the Hot Shot Buff.

I would certainly like Hot Shot to benefit MCH mechanics like Stright Shot does to Bard but they will certainly take time for consideration how it may contribute beyond its damage buff.

Well, not gonna lie - I'd rather have kept lead shot over hot shot. They're both maintenance de/buffs of sort and in fact were both used together in the old "rotation"/priority system, but the first comes with the added bonus of multi-dotting.

Hot shot, I'd rather just have as counterpart to cooldown - a quick heat generator after overheat (kinda like it works in PvP). That "could" go a long way making overheats less punishing and maybe even help MCH numbers as a result.

There's a few abilities that are still questionable bloat (like why is Dreadwyrm Trance/Deathflare still separate?) Impact for RDM just seems...kind of pointless. I get its use, but eh. But hey stuff to prune for 5.0 already.

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Originally Posted by Chiraisu

You're right. I don't have it 70. It's currently 50.

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So, you don't even have your gauss barrel yet which means you've never played with the heat mechanic unless you've spammed POTD. And, if all you have played is POTD, you're playing the class without its full mechanics since most of it doesn't unlock until 64.

And you're complaining about how useless Hot Shot is?

Unlock your heated shots and then complain to us about Hot Shot.

I've cleared Sus Ex and Lak EX. And while they arnt the hardest fights by any means. They do give you a chance to play with your class in more involved fights in terms of mechanics.

Now as for Hot Shot. I dont think its a big deal keeping it up. Especially as we lost having to tra k dots and gained having to track heat. (But tbh in 3.x you always applied HS and LS at the same time anyways so its really only trackung 1 timer.)

I think the larger issue is just that HS is so weak atm you're not stressing if it falls off for a GCD. Bump that shit to 10% NOW Im making sure that shit is up 100% of the time.

As for Overheat, I never reallu considered that it might just be fore lvl 64 and lower. Cause we always think the all the parts of our class should be taken advantage of for more dps. But again. Bump OH up to 20% and Ill be using it everytime Stabalizer is off CD. Which would be a lot more interesting. Imo

They should make Hot Shot into what Flaming Arrow *was*. Thematically they're shifting Bard away from the Archer stereotype towards more of a Minstral/Bard flavored job, since before they were 80% archer with just a few song stances. Since MCH is more of a "tool user" igniting the ground with a special round for DoT fits more with MCH's theme and it would be a waste to see the ground flame effect disappear.

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Originally Posted by Eir_Z

So, you don't even have your gauss barrel yet which means you've never played with the heat mechanic unless you've spammed POTD. And, if all you have played is POTD, you're playing the class without its full mechanics since most of it doesn't unlock until 64.

And you're complaining about how useless Hot Shot is?

Unlock your heated shots and then complain to us about Hot Shot.

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You are right, I have indeed spammed POTD for what it is. It's not especially hard content (at all) but it does give me things to punch on to become familiar with a kit. With this, I have gained the personal experience using gauss barrel. However, the heat mechanic is largely useless (unless there was an event where you overheat for extra damage) beyond the 5% damage buff it gives you in these levels. Playing optimally, it is somewhat difficult to overheat the barrel. You have to actually press for it to happen, but there is no DPS advantage tied to overheating. There isn't any special shot, special bomb, or any such action that incentivizes the "risk and reward" of contributing a lot of damage at the sacrifice of heat. There just isn't a move like this (beyond flamethrower, which is 70)

Further more, I am sure that unlocking the heated shots makes much of MCH play differently, plus they look cool. But you seem to be overlooking that their is a wealth of content that is not 64+. Many roulettes, many trials, raids, etc. Are not 70. A job should not feel as bad as the way it is just because they didn't have access to the highest levels of their kit. If I were to go back and play pre 70 content I would never (I mean never) want to do it on MCH. But that's a discussion for another day.

You also seem to mistake my discussion as a means to complain, I'm not. (well, cept maybe the last bit) I am invoking discussion on Hot Shot because it seems to be that many people take it for what it is, which while fine, is yet rather interesting. It is a generic buff with a generic effect/damage/GCD that doesn't do much to play into the kit of MCH. More damage is always good. I don't aim to "remove" this damage buff, meerly saying that this buff can easily be found elsewhere, while this action could have a truly unique effect that plays into the central play style of MCH. It's also probably one of the more lore intensive actions tied into the MCH questline, learning it at 30, and using it for some quests afterwards. To compare, it would be like Dark Knight having Darkside, but otherwise contributes "nothing" else to the job, at all.

I came off as a bit harsh in my last reply and for that, my apologies. I had similar problems while I was leveling 60-70 and while doing <64 content. The job, and many jobs in those dungeons, feel very clunky. They're very obviously designed around level 70 content eight little thought out into lower content which is somewhat comparable to the previous <30 content.

I think I got a bit defensive since, there's a lot to complain about with machinist in the new content and Hot Shot is fairly low on the list. If anything, I think it should add more heat to reduce the time it takes to build to 50 instead of using Flamethrower. But, otherwise I wouldn't touch it. The buff + the gauss barrel buff + heated shots is a huge potency increase over the basic shots and none of it is difficult to maintain.

<64 content you're relying on ammunition to regulate heat which can be quite tricky at times. Then once you get Cooldown, regulating heat is pretty easy.

Oh my god, you people want even MORE skills removed from MCH?

At this rate, every dps is going to be a big red button to do DPS.

Make Hot Shot a DoT since they took ours (which was one of the strongest in HW) and make it count towards Wild Fire and give us an incentive to use it, like Straight Shot works for BRD.
Maybe give our Heated Shots a 20% chance to proc a sure crit Hot Shot and when applied with crit, it gives a 5% (the friggin 5%) damage bonus? It would probably make that part more fluid.
I am not one of the mathematicians players, so I don't know how much it would affect us, but it sure seems like it would be a little dps increase at least and on TOP of that, make the priority rotation a little more fluid. (which is not atm)

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I wanted to highlight this first. You don't main it, yet you say one of the most basic skills, just like BRD's Straight Shot and DRG's Heavy Thrust - both of which increase your damage - is an ability bloat?

MCH lost more than it gained, and the empty slots in my second hotbar are proof of that. Not to mention with all the things that currently just don't work/work well/conflicts with others, you choose the one thing that was the least changed? Hot Shot IS a buff. Keep it up just like the BRD/DRG skills I mentioned before.

Please actually play and level the job before you go trying to speak on it at length.

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I hate pressing hotshot. "It gives 10 heat!", they say. How about 10 better abilities. "But what about the 5% damage!", you say. Laughable! I wish I never had to press hotshot. Straight shot can be straighter shot proc'd (which I guess is a non thing given refulg exists). Heavy thrust has interactions with flank. And hotshot? Hotshot's only additional use is mitigated for 99% of every fight 100% of the time. That being raising heat by 10 even when you're not overheating. It is a literal "press this button before every reload" (that is, every 30 seconds). It's interaction? I can think of only one. Enrages user who has to push me

I HATE hotshot. HATE it. Those times when you have a WF coming up but you need to reapply hotshot, but you're at 90 heat so you have to CD first. Which delays your WF if you're on a server where you can't pump out 2 or 3 ticks with flamethrower without it clipping it a GCD. Those times when you've slipped up and it falls off in the middle of setting up for a wildfire. And you think to yourself "I would oh so dearly really love to reapply hotshot I do declare! But, I can't because it uses BULLETS" Those times when you're forced to spam it on the occasional overheat because flamethrower is so bad as to not even be considered an option.

And on the topic of bullets. WHY does it use bullets! Have you ever thought to yourself "Golly gee whillikers! Boy! Wouldn't it sure be swell if I could add 25 potency to hotshot and not to my splitshot, slugshot, cleanshot combo!" No of course you haven't! And yet it uses bullets nonetheless!

And then there's the EVIL of hotshot. It's irredeemable nature. The serpent in the brush. When your heat is teetering between 90/100. And your hotshot falls off. But you don't notice your heat. "Come press me", Hotshot says. "I will enable you to do more damage!", it coaxes. And I tell you now that if you listen to that sweet deceptive little serpent and you press it you and your entire DPS that fight will go up in FLAMES as you conflagrate. Seared by the very flames that the phrase "hot" would imply. How fitting then that Hot Shot causes searing Hot Pain.

I HATE hotshot. No dot. No debuff. The only thing hotshot needs is to be flat out removed from the game. Purge it from MCH history! Strike it from the annals of time! I hope in whatever pruning happens for 5.x that they take a look at hotshot and think "nah nevermind".

If they remove Hot Shot, then why not get rid of any DPS boosting skills that must be kept refreshed on all jobs?

Again, I'm aware of the conflicts the MCH kit is full of currently, but not liking it is hardly reason to get rid of it. Now, if they roll the 5% from that into Gauss Barrel making it a full 10% sure. But then that means you're still back to 0 after an overheat (and yes 5% isn't much, but Hot Shot + Gauss Barrel is effectively 10% yes? That makes Overheat 20% from the extra 10%, but we're all aware something's a bit off with that currently.)

I don't mind if they merge it with the old Lead Shot, or give it more of a utility that makes sustaining it more worthwhile. But calling it an ability bloat and wanting it gone purely for dislike of it is hardly valid reason for change.

If the goal is fun. And it's not fun to use it. That's a valid reason enough. I'm fine with maintenance skills. I love maintenance skills. But currently we have two of those built in our kit. Hotshot and our heat gauge. To say hotshot is outdated is an understatement. It has no special extra interactions. It's not built into a combo. It's just another maintenance ability that's not intuitive and has no special interactions. And it clashes with everything. It adding heat makes it even worse now than it was in 3.0 when juggling 80-90 range heat.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I don't mind if they merge it with the old Lead Shot, or give it more of a utility that makes sustaining it more worthwhile. But calling it an ability bloat and wanting it gone purely for dislike of it is hardly valid reason for change.

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Perhaps my title was a bit.. misleading. I merely meant that it was bloat in it's current form. If I had thought more of the title, rather than the contents of my original post, I'd likely not have titled the thread as such. Something more akin to "Possible Suggestions to make Hot Shot more fun", or something along those lines.

I fully believed it should be kept in, but at "least" changed up a bit. Make it more fun to press.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I wanted to highlight this first. You don't main it, yet you say one of the most basic skills, just like BRD's Straight Shot and DRG's Heavy Thrust - both of which increase your damage - is an ability bloat?

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Technically a skill so strong and consistently useful that must always be used, without delay, nuance, or direct connection to any other skill, yet lacks any interesting mechanic of its own, is one most likely to be bloat. If SE is to be trusted in their alleged desire to reduce artificial difficulty and necessary status effect tracking, Hot Shot remains in order to be able to waste ammunition. That is its mechanic—to make you think about your ammunition. With the removal of Lead Shot, Cleaner Shot and now Cooldown are the only other contributors to this, and the latter probably ought to be combined with Hot Shot as in PvP.

It's not that it's difficult to keep up Hot Shot.

It's not that Hot Shot doesn't contribute immense amounts of damage.

It's that it could as easily be removed (or changed from its current form) and the surrounding toolkit refit and fewer would likely feel their engagement with the class reduced than increased.

Come play Samurai and have fun keeping up 2 buffs that could have easily been built into the job itself but are not and most of the time you don't even finish the full combo as you need to keep those 2 buffs up constantly in order to maximize your damage on the job. That is my only gripe with my job otherwise I like everything about it.

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

Come play Samurai and have fun keeping up 2 buffs that could have easily been built into the job itself but are not and most of the time you don't even finish the full combo as you need to keep those 2 buffs up constantly in order to maximize your damage on the job. That is my only gripe with my job otherwise I like everything about it.

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It is nowhere near as hard as you're making it out to be lol

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Originally Posted by MiruWest

It is nowhere near as hard as you're making it out to be lol

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It's not hard at all that's the thing but its just annoying that it was done this way lol

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

If they remove Hot Shot, then why not get rid of any DPS boosting skills that must be kept refreshed on all jobs?

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This would depend on those skills' windows of interactions with other abilities. If you have an option for trade-off between its uptime (usually by clipping early) and getting more into your rotation, it becomes interesting. Sadly, these considerations are usually liminal, lasting only so long as, say, Skill Speed takes to devalue on the way to 70, or until Lance Mastery II. At best, there's oGCD weight in determining whether to clip early or reapply late. But at least there's generally something there to come into consideration. When that fails to be the case, as with Hot Shot, then the skill becomes especially uninteresting. The dull parts are often what make the interesting parts as interesting as they are, but that's do to exact, whether designed or coincidental, interaction between each, usually through resultant windows of trade-off that can lead to a potential divergence or adaptation in rotation.

One could argue, from the same coin, that Hot Shot is simply too easy to manage. One can, and should in the long run, simply shift other skills over by the GCD in order to prevent ever having to decide between its uptime and its use in order to maximize its effect within one's rotation. It is used before either Reload as not to consume ammo. Ammo waste is the threat, but it's essentially a null one. As such, it becomes purely rotational. It becomes stale. (Before you ask rhetorically whether should all fixed rotations then be scrapped allow for more variation, I'll just say yes.)

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

It's not hard at all that's the thing but its just annoying that it was done this way lol

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The primary outlier difference here is that your buffs are still within your main rotation. Whether or not one should argue that those buffs have a long enough duration is what you should really be asking.

Hot shot has trivial play into mechanics. It's basically a heavy thrust.