the mp recovery from aetherflow isnt even enough for one adlo

i know sch was kinda op in 3.0 but what the hell?

It's all over the healer forum right now. SCH was nerfed hard and while it's still viable you have MUCH less room for error than before and really can't main heal at all in eight man content without performing perfectly. Given the outrage I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of the next classes buffed.

Aetherflow + Lucid Dreaming (you didn't have this before) + Energy Drain x3 + Dissipation -> Energy Drain x3, or instead of Energy Draining using those stacks for heals instead of using Adlo, using Rouse to give your MP a break.

I'm not telling you not to complain, but I'm hoping that a few more people can actually see how much MP Scholars actually have.

Scholars do have the worst MP management of the three right now, but it's not bad by any means. With access to Aetherflow + Lucid Dreaming, the only way to go OOM is if you're throwing out Resses left, right and center.

Scholars do have other issues, but I really hope people stop complaining about MP because they're just plain bad at playing the job. The last thing we need is for good changes to be overlooked because so many people want extra mana to spam Adlo all day every day.

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Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77

i know sch was kinda op in 3.0 but what the hell?

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Not just in 3.x. I am glad to see it finally got hit with the nerf hammer, it was about time, now you gotta play like we did in 2.x and put some effort into that job while playing.

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

Not just in 3.x. I am glad to see it finally got hit with the nerf hammer, it was about time, now you gotta play like we did in 2.x and put some effort into that job while playing.

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If you're saying the healer that had the highest skill ceiling by far didn't require any effort, you're just discrediting yourself and your knowledge of the healer role.

Idk what OP does with their MP, but I've been regularly doing Susano EX as SCH and even after death have zero issues getting my mp back. Popping either or both LD and Aetherflow I still have MP to throw out succor when I need to and swiftcast Selene, then either drain aetherflow on Energy Drain or wait out LD timer, popping Rouse to help main healer. By 15 sec I have half my mp again. MP is a non issue if you know how to play the job.

What we need is an explosive heal similar to AST. Someone in a different thread brought up a change to Dissipation (which I don't think I've ever used except on accident) where as your fairy disappears it will throw out an AoE heal with an potency dependant on the fairy guage (on top of the 3 aetherflow gain). As it is now dissipation is just not encouraged with that guage there as it's emptied when the fairy disappears. A great emergency button and even more incentive to fill that guage instead of JUST for Fey Union (which I do love).

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Originally Posted by Freyt

post promoting energy drain

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http://i.imgur.com/NDWvUd0.jpg

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

If you're saying the healer that had the highest skill ceiling by far didn't require any effort, you're just discrediting yourself and your knowledge of the healer role.

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I was thinking the same thing. SCH was by no means "faceroll"... if that's what was being implied by "put some effort into that job while playing". It wasn't just DoT, DoT, DoT, spam Ruin/Broil, Fairy heals everyone to full. What made a good SCH has always been shielding at the correct times, knowing how to use your cooldowns effectively, micromanaging the fairy it's position, and cooldowns, all while keeping up with your dps rotation. Facerolling dungeons is completely different from running somewhat challenging content (EX Primals/Savage Raids). I've been a SCH main at different times during 2.0 and 3.0, I can tell you that any SCH worth their salt was putting in just as much work, if not more, than anyone else in the group.

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Originally Posted by Freyt

Aetherflow + Lucid Dreaming (you didn't have this before) + Energy Drain x3 + Dissipation -> Energy Drain x3, or instead of Energy Draining using those stacks for heals instead of using Adlo, using Rouse to give your MP a break.

I'm not telling you not to complain, but I'm hoping that a few more people can actually see how much MP Scholars actually have.

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So wait.

You want me to Energy drain 3 times to make up for the Aetherflow gut?

Also, you want me to dissipation? And then use Energy drain 3 times? So I can waste the extra mana and a swiftcast to get the nerf'd fairy back?

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

So wait.

You want me to Energy drain 3 times to make up for the Aetherflow gut?

Also, you want me to dissipation? And then use Energy drain 3 times? So I can waste the extra mana and a swiftcast to get the nerf'd fairy back?

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Exactly. Who needs Lustrate, or Indom, or Soil, or Bane? All about that energy drain baby.

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Originally Posted by ZeratoTyrael

I was thinking the same thing. SCH was by no means "faceroll"... if that's what was being implied by "put some effort into that job while playing". It wasn't just DoT, DoT, DoT, spam Ruin/Broil, Fairy heals everyone to full. What made a good SCH has always been shielding at the correct times, knowing how to use your cooldowns effectively, micromanaging the fairy it's position, and cooldowns, all while keeping up with your dps rotation. Facerolling dungeons is completely different from running somewhat challenging content (EX Primals/Savage Raids). I've been a SCH main at different times during 2.0 and 3.0, I can tell you that any SCH worth their salt was putting in just as much work, if not more, than anyone else in the group.

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I never said it was face roll job to begin with. Exactly as you described was the job of the scholar, and back in ARR doing the content, divided a good scholar from a bad one. I am not talking about undersync'd parties, or running old content in 50+ ilvls higher than intended. Scholars to that time needed to know the fights in and out, needed the knowledge of tank busters, raid wide incoming damage and take the accurate measurements, it was very unforgiving.

HW rolled by, and excuse me but we might have a different opinion or experience, outside of savage content, it was very forgiving. You didn't needed to study fights, if you screwed up here and there, nothing mayor would happen. You could always recover, specially when you were running trials that did have 2 healers in it, and not both were absolute incompetent.

On top of that, you could help the party with your dps, and we all know that apparently with adding 5 more buttons to the HW rotations, most dps couldn't even manage the basics of their dps output or job in general. Most SCH's as well as tanks would easily out dmg the actual dps. It was very sad to see.

Now we are somewhat back to the old 2.x times. It does actually take a skilled player to play SCH. It's not as easy anymore and if you don't know the fights or your job, more often you find yourself either out of MP, or close to a full wipe. That's what I meant with putting some effort in it. You might not agree and that's fine, but HW outside of savage, was not the most complicated content ever released, were SCH's would struggle or would have a difficult time in general.

Why do you think we have all these topics coming up? Not because old veterans can't keep a tank alive anymore, it's all these new players, or players that started with HW, complaining that now they can't go afk after having casted succor and eos aoe heal. Or people like the OP that complains about mp management.

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

Scholars to that time needed to know the fights in and out, needed the knowledge of tank busters, raid wide incoming damage and take the accurate measurements, it was very unforgiving.
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Now we are somewhat back to the old 2.x times. It does actually take a skilled player to play SCH.

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The skill ceiling of SCH was always high because of all the tools we were given. With more tools comes more responsibilities, and executing them correctly was the mark of a good SCH. Some of the complaints now are because we are nowhere near being back to 2.x SCH. We can't mitigate as well, because Virus was removed, and when talking about shields we are completely outclassed by N.AST. These are all viable complaints for SCHs to be making. Hence why my first post was that we don't need to focus on MP management, which isn't even difficult, but actually addressing these issues about SCH losing what made it unique.

Do we need to put in more effort? In my opinion, no. To play SCH well you always had to put in a lot of effort. The only difference is that now our effort is hardly rewarded, and our only niche lies in emergency burst healing and a weaker Faerie. Any job outside of savage is forgiving, because that's the only content where you are actually forced to optimise.

The changes to Scholar do not make the job dead, but they are also not okay, and most certainly can't be validated by "now you need to put in more effort". We outright lost most of our tools and cannot function in a similar way to 2.x/3.x. The entire playstyle of the job has changed to the point that you can't even compare it to 3.x.

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

Not just in 3.x. I am glad to see it finally got hit with the nerf hammer, it was about time, now you gotta play like we did in 2.x and put some effort into that job while playing.

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this is that most ridiculous thing I've heard on these forums in about...well, a few hours ago with the 'make dps equal' thing. but I'm thinking this tops it.

I see nothing wrong. SCH was god tier for 2.x and 3.x, they needed to get toned down.

SCH is pretty much unplayable right now, especially with how... oblivious the average roulette player is. :( Lucid Dreaming barely even helps, nor does it make up for the severely gutted potency of our heals and mitigation compared to AST.

I honestly don't get it; healers were where they needed to be by the end of 3.0. Why tamper with them in a way that makes 2 out of 3 crippled?

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Originally Posted by rachcouture

SCH is pretty much unplayable right now, especially with how... oblivious the average roulette player is. :( Lucid Dreaming barely even helps, nor does it make up for the severely gutted potency of our heals and mitigation compared to AST.

I honestly don't get it; healers were where they needed to be by the end of 3.0. Why tamper with them in a way that makes 2 out of 3 crippled?

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Apparently they weren't where they needed to be, considering the general consensus from healers (and tanks) coming into 4.0. I tend to agree, since WAR, and SCH have both been in the spotlight since Second Coil, AST only coming into popularity during Creator.

Give them time. They'll get it right, even if it takes a while.

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

Not just in 3.x. I am glad to see it finally got hit with the nerf hammer, it was about time, now you gotta play like we did in 2.x and put some effort into that job while playing.

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I mean if you consider the fact that staying in cleric stance for more sustained DPS in dungeons OP... i'd hate to see what balanced is. There's multiple reasons why it wasn't OP, everyone just see's the fact that they could stay in cleric stance longer and think it's OP. Well timed shields could certainly make some things easier.. and yes high gear levels in dungeons could let you stay in cleric almost indefinitely the same thing could be achieved with regens and the huge AOE dps brought by other healers.

Simply put, SCH was never OP, it was just desired because of its higher sustained DPS. Yes the fairy was a free regen, was single target and a decent potency. However no one really seems to compare it to the fact WHM or AST can cast party wide regens or even throw single target regens on whoever whenever, which better MP regen only helps with. The fairy is greatly overestimated. Combined with higher MP costs and lower potencies that have not really ever been increased, even Physick is weaker than a Cure I. All of the good healing abilities we have a locked in a 1 minute CD with 3 uses per.

What the fairy nerf showcases is exactly how out of date our abilities have become and how much the fairy was needed to make up for the weaker potencies. You try having your MP regen and AOE dps locked behind something you share with heals on a 3 time use on a 1 minute CD. Situational, yes; OP? no.

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Originally Posted by Lildragora

What the fairy nerf showcases is exactly how out of date our abilities have become and how much the fairy was needed to make up for the weaker potencies.

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This right here is exactly why I don't understand why other healers call Eos a "free regen". We pay for her in how much less potency our heals have. And that's without considering we don't always have them available since they need Aetherflow

SCH also has 3 ways to recover mana.

After getting used to how SCH plays in SB, I rarely run low on MP. Proper use of LD and energy drain allows me to use Adlo whenever I need to. Honestly, the only situation where SCH is completely gutted at the moment is in dungeons. SCH has issues, but MP management is not one of them.

If you are spending aetherflow stacks on energy drain, you are doing it wrong. ED needs to be removed, it is useless and there are way way better things to spend AF on.

Scholar was OP and I understand why they were nerfed hard, but why was AST who was OP before SB also not nerfed, but instead buffed? AST is a better Scholar now, better shields and instant cast ones.

I find it funny all those people talking down to the guy who promoted Energy Drain use. It's a legitimate way to get MP back.

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Originally Posted by Selova

If you are spending aetherflow stacks on energy drain, you are doing it wrong. ED needs to be removed, it is useless and there are way way better things to spend AF on.

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ED is neither useless nor needs to be removed, you lack understanding of how to properly play SCH if you think ED is useless.

For OP: anyone running out of MP isn't using LD enough.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Scholar was OP and I understand why they were nerfed hard, but why was AST who was OP before SB also not nerfed, but instead buffed? AST is a better Scholar now, better shields and instant cast ones.

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Overcompensating for the year+ during HW when they were in the same place SCH is now.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

I find it funny all those people talking down to the guy who promoted Energy Drain use. It's a legitimate way to get MP back.

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Energy Drain does give mana back. But it's almost universally better to use that aetherflow for one of your free heals. If you use it for energy drain then you have to drain that mana (and then some) on expensive heals because you're now playing catch-up, you're not only down net mana gain but also down on HPS.

I played SCH earlier today on a roulette, got The Sunken Temple Of Qarn, this one is infamous for the first and second boss doing things that newbies screw up. Well they screwed up all of them.

So I was hitting the OOM point with these guys. However it seems like V4.0 cut Aetherflow and Energy Drain far more than I had anticipated. Aetherflow used to be 20% now it's 10%.

Lucid Dreaming (formerly Shroud of Saints on WHM) used to always recover a predictable amount of MP, and it seems like the developers adjusted Aetherflow in anticipation of healers always having this, but since it's in the "role system" it seems like an optional skill.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

I find it funny all those people talking down to the guy who promoted Energy Drain use. It's a legitimate way to get MP back.

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Because monsters hit way harder and you dont always have perfect tanks that handle their cooldowns correctly. Also I still have so many tanks that just pull everything in leveling dungeons even though people might not be geared for this. Using Energy Drain to get back mana means that I dont have any of my high healing skills left to use. So if the tanks takes some really big hits I would not be able to heal him up fast enough. Also I never got the feeling like I get much back with it.

I dont have mana problems in every fight but I did notice that its way harder to keep someone up if not everyone knows what to do.

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Originally Posted by Aerowaffle

Energy Drain does give mana back. But it's almost universally better to use that aetherflow for one of your free heals. If you use it for energy drain then you have to drain that mana (and then some) on expensive heals because you're now playing catch-up, you're not only down net mana gain but also down on HPS.

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Make use of your fairy skills, if aoe dmg went out but no more aoes are coming anytime soon use rouse + whispering dawn or fey illumination + whispering dawn instead of indomitability.


If we put the value of 1 aetherflow stack at 1200 MP (what ED restores), you're paying 1200 MP for 600 heal potency every time you lustrate, but two physicks are 800 heal potency for the same cost. In 8 man content let your cohealer's regen (if any) do their job instead of overhealing.

I'm oversimplifying the scenarios but the point is, play it smart with your AF stacks, most people I've met in DF waste their stacks panic-healing. If you check the top scholars in DPS rankings you will see a quite liberal usage of energy drain.

So I would say that no, it's not "almost universally better" to thoughtlessly burn your instant heals that cost 1200 MP in the same thread where people are complaining about lacks of way to recover MP. If you have to use them to keep people alive, do it, but if there's no emergency don't burn your AF stacks on nothing.

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Originally Posted by Aerowaffle

Energy Drain does give mana back. But it's almost universally better to use that aetherflow for one of your free heals. If you use it for energy drain then you have to drain that mana (and then some) on expensive heals because you're now playing catch-up, you're not only down net mana gain but also down on HPS.

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It looks like most people dont realize how valuable AF really is..

Granted if you have a great co-healer and your on that DPS rotation throw in an energy drain for extra DPS or if you know it can safely be done. Generally though you want the AF for heals. It's just like how people overestimated the fairy because of one method of use. It really irks me off when I have to put in more work than before for less impact.. I already considered myself a good sch but really the only thing this job brought before was sustained DPS and mitigation. Now it doesn't bring either except single target dps which can no longer be as sustained (not sure on exact numbers but I did 1300 in Lakshmi ex which felt good). Pretty sure WHM could do better now.

It's like, what is a scholar supposed to bring? Its a shield healer based on a dps class. If that doesn't say dps and mitigation I dont know what does. I honestly don't believe anyone at SE plays a healer or understands them. They should have given WHM raid utility, not more heals (Benison was a good start). They should have given SCH some more shields, more AF opportunities, shield/heal potency increases or more aoe heal options. AST I think would have been fine without the old ability buffs as it was already close to if not best healer all around if anything some better dps options along with the new abilities. I just dont understand it.

SE: All healers are viable so lets base content on that so even a x2 SCH can clear ( technically speaking the weakest HPS throughput )
SE: *Gives WHM more healing abilities* There that solves WHM, now lets bring SCH down, great now we can make content everyone can heal!

All the healing in the world does no good if its overhealing.

I dont think all fights should be doable with any healer/tank comp. I feel it should be diverse to showcase all the jobs in different light. While I understand thats not feasible because "now I have to level this job..." it would be nice to see a fight where you need that HPS throughput otherwise its over and likewise where you would need that mitigation or it would be over. Same things with the tanks, make a fight where the healers are unable to heal tanks during certain parts so sustain becomes important, or make a fight where reduction would be the way to go. Thats just my opinion but would like the dynamic approach more.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

So wait.

You want me to Energy drain 3 times to make up for the Aetherflow gut?

Also, you want me to dissipation? And then use Energy drain 3 times? So I can waste the extra mana and a swiftcast to get the nerf'd fairy back?

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Everyone has full health, you're at half MP, Aetherflow is off cooldown...... you won't use Energy Drain because oh man you MIGHT need Lustrate for some reason.

No, you're using Aetherflow wrong. If Aetherflow is off cooldown, then you use up your stacks and you put it back on cooldown.

Will not understand, when healing was a joke, everyone complaining it was a joke and they will dps because won't want die out of boredom, and now that healing is a joke no more, everyone complaining healing requiring effort. I welcome healing finally a thing for pro healers, and no more an alternative for bored dps players.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

I find it funny all those people talking down to the guy who promoted Energy Drain use. It's a legitimate way to get MP back.

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It is. And I do use Aetherflow for Energy drain whenever I have leftover stacks. As in, no one is dying, and/or the boss is not in WTF AoE spam phase, and my Aetherflow is not in cooldown. In which case I just use all my remaining stacks for Energy Drain and refresh the stack. And keep on doing what I was doing before.

But trying to prove a point by being hyperbolic, using all three Aetherflow stacks on three Energy Drain beats the point of having Aetherflow stacks. And using Dissipation to get another three Energy Drain on top of that.... That's just bad.
Since Aetherflow stacks should be saved for emergency especially if it's on cooldown, not wasted on a back to back six Energy Drains.

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Originally Posted by Freyt

Everyone has full health, you're at half MP, Aetherflow is off cooldown...... you won't use Energy Drain because oh man you MIGHT need Lustrate for some reason.

No, you're using Aetherflow wrong. If Aetherflow is off cooldown, then you use up your stacks and you put it back on cooldown.

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^Now this is a much better explanation. I agree with this.

Now when I'm playing scholar, I used Lucid Dreaming at half MP, and Energy Drain (or Indomitability to top off the party because I like watching everyone at full health) when Aetherflow is off cooldown.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Make use of your fairy skills, if aoe dmg went out but no more aoes are coming anytime soon use rouse + whispering dawn or fey illumination + whispering dawn instead of indomitability.


If we put the value of 1 aetherflow stack at 1200 MP (what ED restores), you're paying 1200 MP for 600 heal potency every time you lustrate, but two physicks are 800 heal potency for the same cost. In 8 man content let your cohealer's regen (if any) do their job instead of overhealing.

I'm oversimplifying the scenarios but the point is, play it smart with your AF stacks, most people I've met in DF waste their stacks panic-healing. If you check the top scholars in DPS rankings you will see a quite liberal usage of energy drain.

So I would say that no, it's not "almost universally better" to thoughtlessly burn your instant heals that cost 1200 MP in the same thread where people are complaining about lacks of way to recover MP. If you have to use them to keep people alive, do it, but if there's no emergency don't burn your AF stacks on nothing.

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But I'm arguing about the effective use of the AF to alleviate a low mana situation, not what you can do to avoid the problem of low mana in the first place. The Fairy can't instant heal and while in a perfect world everyone can wait around and get healed back up to max in an efficient manner with physicks, in the content where we're concerned about our mana it's not the case. You need to move around, you need to make sure someone is topped off in case someone else fails a mechanic and it hits the rest of the group, it's a burst healer check and you need to burn through healing to keep everyone up. All of those situations are not moments where a healer has the luxury of letting the slow, small heals roll in.

When I'm low on mana and I've got AF stacks, I'm not concerned about DPS, I'm concerned about making sure everyone is staying alive. If I use what little possible healing I have at that time on a energy drain and someone dies because I DPS'ed instead of healed, it's completely my fault.
If I'm not facing a mana problem and I need to AF to be on cooldown; I throw a Excogitation on a tank that's expected to use it and use Lustrate where it's useful real quick.

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Originally Posted by Aerowaffle

When I'm low on mana and I've got AF stacks, I'm not concerned about DPS, I'm concerned about making sure everyone is staying alive. If I use what little possible healing I have at that time on a energy drain and someone dies because I DPS'ed instead of healed, it's completely my fault.

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Well, using AF stacks on free heals like Lustrate, Excogitation, and Indomitability could be considered as saving MP as well.
So I'd say that it's not wrong to use them instead of Energy Drain, as long as it won't result in overhealing.

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Originally Posted by Iveriad

Well, using AF stacks on free heals like Lustrate, Excogitation, and Indomitability could be considered as saving MP as well.
So I'd say that it's not wrong to use them instead of Energy Drain, as long as it won't result in overhealing.

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That is kinda my point. These SCH that have the space to use energy drain are able to have that space thanks to their teammates. Our job as healers gets harder the less competent your teammates are. Compared to the two other roles, we have many more opportunities to spend our resources to fix other people's mistakes.

So if your team was causing enough problems that you are now low on mana, chances are you also need to spend your AF on efficiency + instant healing instead of efficiency + dmg.

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Originally Posted by pushin_tin

After getting used to how SCH plays in SB, I rarely run low on MP. Proper use of LD and energy drain allows me to use Adlo whenever I need to. Honestly, the only situation where SCH is completely gutted at the moment is in dungeons. SCH has issues, but MP management is not one of them.

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Exactly. I have to assume that people having MP issues are either a) bad players b) get stuck in awful DF groups c) don't use Lucid Dreaming correctly or d) a combination of the above

I really hate the idea of people throwing out atherflow and fairy heals as “free” heals. They are anything but “free”. We pay for these heals with completely gimped physics, aldo, and succor. The atherflow heals must be used to augment these other heals in order to perform our job. Saving atherflows for energy drain isn’t always an option, so relying on it for regular mana management is kind of fool hardy. Don’t get me wrong, it has its time and place and it definitely helps, but saying to just use ED if you need mana doesn’t help. There are mana issues with the class, not really as much at 70 with better gear (unless you have a bad group requiring a lot of aoe heals), but definitely during the 60 – 70 leveling stages. It’s not our biggest issue but it needs to be fixed to at least make the class more accessible to newer players. Is the class playable, yes, but it is not anywhere close to on par with the other two healers. No one is asking for faceroll easy, but people want to get the healing, support, mana, and dps issues fixed so that they are at least competing on the same level as the other two healers.