PVP: 3.0 vs 4.0

(well video BBcode doesn't work for some reason so here's the link instead https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l70lbhz3uiM)
So this is pretty much a little comparison/ranting video I made and wanted to share, remember it's all opinion based etc etc. I know it's not a popular opinion but all of my friends that did PVP regularly feel the same way aaand I kind of just wanted to share my thoughts about it.

Soooo yeah if you'd like you could share your experiences with 4.0 PVP in comparison to 3.0.

I prefer 4.0 PvP to 3.0, but I also really enjoyed 3.0 because of the depth involved, but I am willingly trading it for the distinct possibility of a more active ladder in S5. Plus, I played SMN for more or less 90% of S4, and honestly it was painful, you're relegated to peel lord every time you can't DWT-Aetherflow burst, which means for more or less half the fight you are a waste of a caster queue. At least now everyone feels like they more or less do steady constant damage. This is SE's goal though, to make it as simple and as easy to learn as possible, unfortunately this would normally go hand in hand with "hard to master" but it's not really even that. I'm playing AST atm and enjoyable it is it has virtually no thought process, B1, B2, B1, B2 over and over. Don't even need to think about my cards since I can just throw them whenever I please since draw CD will tick whilst it's in my hand anyway.

There's a lot of good QoL changes but I think they may have went a bit too far on the ability pruning since it feels more like you're rotating your best skills on CD instead of saving them for certain moments. I'd say there's definitely more "I'm whacking a training dummy" involved when it's melee vs melee though.

I think the point is adapting. Anyone can burst now it jus comes down to being smarter in a way

I feel it's alot less adapting now than it was before. I mean, you can memorize what every class can do in a fight (which you could do before, but there was alot of variety a player could choose from- again, to me it's more like class vs. class than player vs. player at the moment- a phone-app lite edition of what it previously was.) Example, it's 3.0, you're fighting a Warrior and all of the sudden they pop berserk, internal release, etc. You know the double-fell cleave is about to hit you in the face. If you're a DRK you'd be able to counter it with Carnal Chill, maybe just normal cooldowns. If you're a melee, maybe you could try stunning and making a run for it (or just accept your inevitable doom lol.) etc etc- you get the idea. I don't really get that excitement from new PVP anymore. You see a monk pop Riddle of Fire and you either accept your fate or kill them before they kill you (of course there are a few exceptions in that regard depending on what class you're playing)

Kalocin, while I haven't been actively using melee in the different PVP modes/duels, how diverse can a melee fight get? I mean, there's not that many options to choose from. One has a quickly-achieveable burst while the other needs a bit more time to set it up. If you'd repeatedly duel the same class, wouldn't you see the same thing being done over and over again? Two jobs trying to see who can press their buttons faster? If someone defeats you multiple times in a row as the same class, you're obviously doing something wrong, you adapt to what they do and try to use your skills in a different manner- there's so little to do that with, you'll figure out your opponent, the optimal rotation in 2 duels and it starts getting boring. There's very little to adapt to IMO.

I'll just say that they made the changes to make PvP easier, yet the players that were bad before are even worse now. It's pretty disgusting how many DPS (both melee and ranged) can't even break 100k damage in a 8 minute feast match when the good players are hitting 250k-300k+.

Then you have the healers who can barely break 300k healing, while good healers hit 500k+ every game.

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Originally Posted by Koltik

Then you have the healers who can barely break 300k healing, while good healers hit 500k+ every game.

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Honestly I love the 30+ change because if I'm bored, I can queue up as literally whatever I feel like. I don't have Warr/PLD at 30 (but could within like an hour if I needed they're both levelled from before for cross-class); but almost always I'll find myself queueing 70 AST when I have nothing to gain from it because some of the healers I get just stand there like lemons on full mana like "wut do i do?" and there is nothing more frustrating than pulling back and dancing around a WHM with 5k hp left that slowly wilts away because they have virtually no situational awareness whatsoever, even with minimal buttons to press.

I really want to like this new pvp but it's become so dumbed down and way too easy to me.
From my experience in 3.0, getting battle high/fever in frontlines or getting a good amount of kills in feast felt like a big accomplishment knowing I was getting better.
Now in 4.0 I'm getting battle high/fever almost every frontlines match and I don't feel any satisfaction from getting kills or even winning in feast because how how overly simple pvp is now.

That's just me though, I'm glad some people are having fun with the new pvp despite that I sometimes have a hard time seeing why.

Adaptability is closer to 0 than it has never been.

I keep seeing lots of people saying: "Hey, now it looks like *insert random MMO/Moba here* and PvP is better there = PvP in FF is better now". If I can agree on the fact that PvP was a Franklenstein's monster from PvE skills pre-4.0, it is now a Frankenstein's monster from other pvp games.


"Customisation" as example, It's badly implemented and doesn't even exist.
Take pvp actions: You start with 7. Depending if you're Magic of physical (muse or enliven), you only have 6 lefts already. Also, If you're heal or almost any physical DPS, you already have 1 slot taken by enliven/muse. So from the start, you have 5 talents lefts for 1 slot, and the efficiency of most of those are questionnable.
However, since you can get cc every 10 (15secs with trait), you either need concentrate or purify mostly; because despite the fact that safeguard is a powerfull defense skill, and sprint being mandatory (seriously SE...), the 1st thing you aren't allowed to do is to fail your heal/burst during the short window. So yeah: 2 skills for one slot. The part about which skill is a must have can be questionnable ofc, but this is not what you can customisation.

Traits now: I completely fail to understand the purpose of having small percentage in a gameplay where you're asked to deal the highest amount of damage in the shortest amount of time. it makes sense in PvE to have 5% action speed all over a 9 min fight, it doesn't in pvp where you need to kill your target in 8 seconds (or if you juts pvice, worst way of balancing jobs).
But let's keep going. 9 traits for 3 slots, and again, actually 8 for 2 slots ( mana or TP regen). Even more: DPS = Damage dealt, heal = healing done, so 7 for 2 slots (I'm not adding them yet). 5% healing done: with my WHM, I barely gain 200 on cure II. Same for 3% dmg, around 200 for midare with SAM definitely not helping.
Let's take a look of the rest: HP increased, 625 with WHM. Useless. We already cut 3 traits so: 4 for 2 slots. I already said what I think of increased cast time, so 3 for 2. Let's take a look at those really usefull: 50% of DR? worth it, so 2 for 1. I highly doubt reduced dmg taken worth more than the others, so that's only left us with decreased cast time, and we end with 0 choice. [EDIT] Well, dmg done and damage resistance can still be useful actually, but still it's not enough to get close to any form of customisation]

So you're gonna say: "yeah, but balancing...". So let's increase the percentages at the point it's finally noticeable. Doesn't matter, since cc is everything, your healers will just have more works to do, and their situation never been so bad looking at PLD/DRK skills

Seriously, even if this would be depending on the job, you'll still end up with zero choice. I won't even talk about how unfun it is to just spam the same button then pop an oGCD between as DPS. With bad/0 utility for most of them, the one you will take is just the one with the best burst.

So yeah, this is an opinion that I try to make as accurate as possible. I'm just an average pvper, I cannot pretend to be a good pvper nor to have fully understood and theorycrafted every single changes, but I've been in since enough time I think to have at least a global knowledge of how pvp works in this game.

PS: it's 4AM here and english isn't my native language, so please forgive me if my writing skills are crap.

Things I like in 4.0
- more constant dps, not need wait 3min for burst coodlowns
- no rng mechanics
- no crit or direct hit affecting rng
- no auto attacks that break sleep in pvp
- tp and mp is used for making pressure
- smaller dr time, can cc more often
- aoe heals are nerfed so split damage strategy is more viable than before
- Stunning is mainly tank mechanic now so melee dps can not make everything stun immune by using their dps rotatio
- positioning is even more important now if you choose something over sprint
- can already start pvp at lvl 30, not everybody have time level all their characters lvl 70
- can level up characters
- gear not affect pvp, morale was pretty op back in days, you could make like 50% more damage and take 50% less damage yourself.(that was also 2.0)

what I dislike.
- Numbers of buttons should be higher like 5 - 10 more buttons would not hurt anybody? I bet even pad and ps4 users would handle that. How are they supposed to play pve in this game?
- Pvp is getting bored pretty fast if you dont constantly swap between different classes
- maps get boring pretty fast, i would want more different 4 man and 8 man maps
- 72 man is huge mess and you can not personally affect much outcome can you win or lose it.
- hitting crystals in frontlines, i want fight against players, not against crystals or other objectives
- class balance need some changes
- global cooldown should be reduced to 1.5 sec make game more fast paced
- make it impossible cast behind wall or pillar

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Originally Posted by Sunako

- Numbers of buttons should be higher like 5 - 10 more buttons would not hurt anybody? I bet even pad and ps4 users would handle that. How are they supposed to play pve in this game?

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Anytime someone says the amount of buttons we had before made PvP hard for pad users I just direct them to Thana's youtube. Thana is good. Really good. Top 10 Chaos material? Probably but we all know how solo q is luck of the draw. But nonetheless, he's a consistent high Diamond on a pad, and he isn't inhuman, it can be done by those who work hard. But I feel like a lot of changes whilst are there to increase enjoyment, are there to limit any kind of hard work required :( Which to me at least, begs the reason why bother having a 5th season. I'd rather they pool that time managing it into more maps and activities and just have PvP on a really casual level.

Won't even touch it now, and I was an avid PVPer before. Ported to Den once to see the changes, saw pretty much every button but two basic heals deleted from my Astrologian, ported out and haven't looked back since.

Maybe it's more fun for ZUG ZUG HERP DERP DPS who just have to spam 2-3 buttons to easily collect kills now, but I was pretty appalled at how many options they took away from pretty much the only class I played in PVP.

EDIT: I guess my biggest issue is, it feels like so many of these changes are designed around trying to make PVP "accessible" to a broader audience of people who frankly just AREN'T the target audience for a PVP mode in general. Too many options? Have to wait to time burst windows? Have to pay attention to status bars and actually cleanse? I mean, these are things that people who thrive in a competitive environment pick up really fast as it is. They watched streams of strong PVPers, they came here or on Reddit to ask advice, they melded their gear in the exact precise way to get the most value out of how stats worked. People who don't care about stuff like that? Now instead of blaming stuff like "too many buttons" or "effing stunlocks" they'll just blame "bad teammates", "crappy healer", "lag", whatever makes them feel better for just not caring enough to learn and get better.

PVP is enjoying moderate popularity right now because of the rewards, I feel, not because the changes have been for the better. And sadly I just don't trust this development team to be able to separate the cause and the effect like that. Take away exp altogether, don't do events loaded with glams, titles, and rare mounts, and you'd see exactly how many people it is enjoy PVP simply for the merit of it.

There was nothing fun about 3.0 pvp. The long GCD on top of a combo system that really only works in pve just made pvp a convoluted mess. The changes they made actually made pvp playable.

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Originally Posted by SummerScorcher

(well video BBcode doesn't work for some reason so here's the link instead https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l70lbhz3uiM)
So this is pretty much a little comparison/ranting video I made and wanted to share, remember it's all opinion based etc etc. I know it's not a popular opinion but all of my friends that did PVP regularly feel the same way aaand I kind of just wanted to share my thoughts about it.

Soooo yeah if you'd like you could share your experiences with 4.0 PVP in comparison to 3.0.

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It feels too dumbed down. Jobs lost a lot of their versatility with the changes too, which means your hosed in certain situations which you used to be able to get yourself out of. I really like the removal of gear and levels, but I also really don't like the combat changes. Stacked cometeor was deadly in fl, but now it barely tickles. If I had the option, I would go back to 3.0 pvp. Current pvp is just too dumb.

I enjoyed 3.0 PvP heavily. All my PvP videos were made during that time (though I plan to make new ones, life's been happening, thus video work takes a backseat). Technical knowledge of your job mattered a lot more, it was essential to know how to burst rather than just perform standard rotations from PvE, and understanding the game mode, proper gearing, and good strategy REALLY made a difference.

This isn't to say I don't enjoy PvP as it is now, but on MCH there's rather little variance in my gameplay now. If it works once, it'll work every time.

I enjoy both old and new pvp, I just roll with the changes and have fun.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

what I dislike.
- hitting crystals in frontlines, i want fight against players, not against crystals or other objectives

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Please be my girlfriend, lol.

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Originally Posted by Pomo

which means your hosed in certain situations which you used to be able to get yourself out of.

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As a tank i used to survive 4-8 man zergtrain with cooldowns and self-heals but that ain't happening anymore ;__;

I think tanks and healers got shafted most as they pretty much lost all their tools, getting globaled by leaf player because i simply don't have any tools to counter him feels bad man..

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Originally Posted by Ransu

There was nothing fun about 3.0 pvp. The long GCD on top of a combo system that really only works in pve just made pvp a convoluted mess. The changes they made actually made pvp playable.

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Define the long GCD difference. The base GCD in 3.0 was 2.5s before skill/spell speed, the base GCD in 4.0 is 2.3s. You can get a trait to make your gcd 2.18s, but minor buffs GCD in FF has only ever been viable on healers or DPS who can maintain 100% uptime which generally is not possible unless brd/mch and managing to be so invisible no one thinks it's worth CC'ing you. Straight damage stats like crit/det were generally always better. If the GCD was game breaking, play mnk/brd (rip nin) for a noticeable difference in GCD. Also combos still exist in PvP, please tell me you're completing them.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

There was nothing fun about 3.0 pvp. The long GCD on top of a combo system that really only works in pve just made pvp a convoluted mess. The changes they made actually made pvp playable.

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I seriously don't find OOMing after a few dots, having to hard cast 2.3 second tri-binds, not having a pet/enkindle and spamming 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 fun. I played SAM last night, that was pretty cool, but my ladder job ie SMN is just disgusting (great damage, but I can no longer support with reliable peels). Given how much damage some melee can do with 3 GCDs, tribind should not be a 2.3 second cast.

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Originally Posted by SummerScorcher

Kalocin, while I haven't been actively using melee in the different PVP modes/duels, how diverse can a melee fight get? I mean, there's not that many options to choose from. One has a quickly-achieveable burst while the other needs a bit more time to set it up. If you'd repeatedly duel the same class, wouldn't you see the same thing being done over and over again? Two jobs trying to see who can press their buttons faster? If someone defeats you multiple times in a row as the same class, you're obviously doing something wrong, you adapt to what they do and try to use your skills in a different manner- there's so little to do that with, you'll figure out your opponent, the optimal rotation in 2 duels and it starts getting boring. There's very little to adapt to IMO.

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In theory the player with the better connection wins or perhaps they took an odd trait. Everything not skill related more or less.