Community coordinated feedback on Tenacity

So, more balancing to come in 4.05, but only talk of STR/VIT, ...and yet, no mention of Tenacity.

I think it's time that we as a community of tanks make it 100% crystal clear that Tenacity in it's current state is both pointless and unacceptable.

By all means balance the tanks and fix the damage formula, but regardless of all that, please SE make Tenacity meaningful, or remove it. Having another pointless attribute soaking up the point budget on our gear is just adding insult to parry's injury.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

So, more balancing to come in 4.05, but only talk of STR/VIT, ...and yet, no mention of Tenacity.

I think it's time that we as a community of tanks make it 100% crystal clear that Tenacity in it's current state is both pointless and unacceptable.

By all means balance the tanks and fix the damage formula, but regardless of all that, please SE make Tenacity meaningful, or remove it. Having another pointless attribute soaking up the point budget on our gear is just adding insult to parry's injury.

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But its not exactly useless? According to new tests you gain roughly 5% per 1000, mind you that is both 5% dmg done / 5% less dmg received. In contrast 1000 dhit will yield you around 7.5% dmg done and 0% less dmg received. Sure it could use a little buff but its certainly not as bad as most ppl seem to believe.

Tenacity in it's current form is alright, but I see no reason why a tank exclusive stat couldn't be pushed a tad higher. Maybe 150-175=1% negated/increased?

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Originally Posted by Thela

But its not exactly useless? According to new tests you gain roughly 5% per 1000, mind you that is both 5% dmg done / 5% less dmg received. In contrast 1000 dhit will yield you around 7.5% dmg done and 0% less dmg received. Sure it could use a little buff but its certainly not as bad as most ppl seem to believe.

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The tests I had seen shows almost 1800 points making less than 5% difference. How are the new test results different?

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Tenacity in it's current form is alright, but I see no reason why a tank exclusive stat couldn't be pushed a tad higher. Maybe 150-175=1% negated/increased?

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Isn't the problem with linear scaling is that as gear becomes more powerful stats can become OP, so it needs to on a curve that eventually hits a theoretical maximum

1k tenacity = 5% dmg increase, 5% less dmg received. So let's say for simplicity you had 1,000 points to allocate, choosing another stat over it can allow you to have a 2.5% dps increase more (tho det is actually weighted higher than dhit for tanks..), but in exchange for taking 5% more damage.

So as a tank you'd willfully choose to deal 2.5% more dmg in exchange for receiving 5% more dmg? You're losing out on that trade.

Tenacity is not a horrible stat, but not one I'd prioritize. But if it happens to be on my gear I won't really care cuz it's definitely more useful than Parry.

Gonna start off by pointing out that not one of the people who have tested the stat have done a proper test. They have either been 2 data points, or tested over a small range. Nobodies going to know the real value until someone does an incremental test from near base to near cap over large sample sizes. That being said, the fact that tenacity affects outgoing healing instead of incoming is ludicrous, and offers virtually no value as a bonus.

I did put request for tenacity to scale off of VIT yet people just read the most available thing or post their complaints that doesn't really request anything but just giving ideas unless you request it

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Originally Posted by Deathgiver

That being said, the fact that tenacity affects outgoing healing instead of incoming is ludicrous, and offers virtually no value as a bonus.

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It is actually valuable when you realize that the end benefit to self-heals is (mostly) exponential not linear.

If an attack does 1000 base to you and you have a self-heal that heals a base of 500 based on damage dealt, the self heal mitigates 50% of the damage.

If you increase damage dealt and self-healing each by 5% and decrease damage taken by 5%, the attack would deal 950 (95% of 1000) and the self heal would recover ~551.25 (105% of 105% of 500). This mitigates 58% of the damage. A 16% increase in mitigation.

It is not really visible but it is a valuable increase.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

The tests I had seen shows almost 1800 points making less than 5% difference. How are the new test results different?

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The initial "tests" were done by some guy who had a single-digit sample size which effectively made them worthless despite good intentions.
There was a second one I saw after that, but only had a change of ~2xx TEN over a 150-sample test.

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Originally Posted by Deathgiver

Gonna start off by pointing out that not one of the people who have tested the stat have done a proper test. They have either been 2 data points, or tested over a small range. Nobodies going to know the real value until someone does an incremental test from near base to near cap over large sample sizes. That being said, the fact that tenacity affects outgoing healing instead of incoming is ludicrous, and offers virtually no value as a bonus.

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Incremental tests don't add any value for non-tiered stats.
Instead, you're making the dataset murkier because the main problem with testing reduction %s atm is having small damage ranges.
A tank taking ~1k dmg hits with 5% effective change in hp from TEN means ~50 dmg difference.
Splitting the tenacity delta to do incremental tests means a higher fluctuation / error margin because now you're measuring 200-300 TEN gaps where the difference will only be 15-20 damage and any 1 pt of dmg will have a greater %value.

To get a more accurate result than the recent test you'd need to find a mob that did more damage per swing, or wait until 4.x when everyone's swimming in higher ilvl raid gear.
The problem with that is that it's annoying af to test vs high damage mobs because you can't afk or you need an actual player healing you (outdmgs the bird) and healing aggro issues.
Desummoning the bird every 5min drops the aggro, but getting a player to rezone every 5min for a 7-8hour test is just not happening.

What constitutes a large sample size for you?
The last one was done with ~5k samples per point.
There was a fluctuation of about ~0.1% between 3k and 5k samples for some of the datapoints, but most reported back at the same rate.
The point of a larger sample size is to make sure any outliers don't affect the overall data - once it's settled, which it did by 5k, there's not much point in going higher.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

So, more balancing to come in 4.05, but only talk of STR/VIT, ...and yet, no mention of Tenacity.

I think it's time that we as a community of tanks make it 100% crystal clear that Tenacity in it's current state is both pointless and unacceptable.

By all means balance the tanks and fix the damage formula, but regardless of all that, please SE make Tenacity meaningful, or remove it. Having another pointless attribute soaking up the point budget on our gear is just adding insult to parry's injury.

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On the one hand, I agree with you. On the other, I also think the devs have to be careful to not make Tenacity this thing that becomes the ultimate tank stat (the fact that it affects both damage dealt and damage taken is what makes this a bit risky). A small buff would probably work, but anything more than that and you'd have tanks stacking it like crazy.

I sometimes wish tanks here had something like Armored to the Teeth, which basically gave tanks bonus attack rating based on armor value. We already have an edge over the other jobs because tank gear gives superior defense, so it's not like it'd be impossible.

I found the stat weight to be .169 compared to 1 point of strength, Meaning 80 Tenacity is Equal to 13.52 Strength Bonus. While 80 DET is equal to 27.04 Weighting it based on ARR Nerfs at 0.338.
As for Damage Mitigation , I haven't a clue, Be we can assume that, i'd be set at half of the damage dealt.

So that means 80 Tenacity would be equal to 13.52 Str and 6.67 Armor Bonus giving it a stat weight of .253(5)
Honestly at that rate, I kinda see what they were doing, But it still forces the stat into gear where it Doesn't need to be, as Mitigation should be used as much as possible when you main tank that's for sure, but for off tank roles were it's not the primary concern, It's Not the best thing to take with you.
I think SE Forgot there is two tanks in the Party, but haven't recognized that party's aren't always designed around making mistakes.

Honestly even if it WERE overpowered, Only 1 tank in the group would take it over offensive Options, think about that really quickly.

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Originally Posted by Renkei

Honestly at that rate, I kinda see what they were doing, But it still forces the stat into gear where it Doesn't need to be, as Mitigation should be used as much as possible when you main tank that's for sure, but for off tank roles were it's not the primary concern, It's Not the best thing to take with you.
I think SE Forgot there is two tanks in the Party, but haven't recognized that party's aren't always designed around making mistakes.

Honestly even if it WERE overpowered, Only 1 tank in the group would take it over offensive Options, think about that really quickly.

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WAR tank stance only boosts HP so they would need tenacity.

Know what would solve all this? If square took their heads out their asses and made the stats transparent like in WoW. 1068 tenacity means nothing to me. The same amount of versatility in WoW would tell me the exact % of + damage out and - damage in. Same goes for all the side stats. But for some, no good, reason everything's damn well opaque.

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Originally Posted by SethVortu

Know what would solve all this? If square took their heads out their asses and made the stats transparent like in WoW. 1068 tenacity means nothing to me. The same amount of versatility in WoW would tell me the exact % of + damage out and - damage in. Same goes for all the side stats. But for some, no good, reason everything's damn well opaque.

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This isn't just a problem with attribute bonuses imo.

Right now I believe the numbers people are throwing around are something like 150 DH/1% DPS gain, 180 DET/1% DPS gain, and 200-250 TEN/1% DPS gain.

Tenacity is a bit weak because half it's benefit does nothing while you're OTing, but it's actually not total garbage. It should perhaps have its DPS benefit buffed very slightly for that reason, but it's possible it's already comparable to SkS on PLD as I haven't seen the numbers for that yet (SkS now buffs AA, but it still does nothing for HS spam).

U forgot skills peed

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

WAR tank stance only boosts HP so they would need tenacity.

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Yeah because at the end of the day 66.7 armor bonus is going to save me over the extra 6k healed per Equilibrium /s

Yes, at the end of the day you won't take only 6k damage, you take I guess hundreds of hits during a single fight yes? every single attack be mitigated by those 66 armor bonus yes?

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Originally Posted by Lildragora

This isn't just a problem with attribute bonuses imo.

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Agreed. If Inner Beast only returns 90% HP at level 70, that's fine - but I'd rather see 90% on the tooltip than "a portion".

On-topic, it doesn't make any sense for the benefits of the tank secondary stat to be so low, especially if SE insists on putting it on as much tanking gear as they are.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

Right now I believe the numbers people are throwing around are something like 150 DH/1% DPS gain, 180 DET/1% DPS gain, and 200-250 TEN/1% DPS gain.

Tenacity is a bit weak because half it's benefit does nothing while you're OTing, but it's actually not total garbage. It should perhaps have its DPS benefit buffed very slightly for that reason, but it's possible it's already comparable to SkS on PLD as I haven't seen the numbers for that yet (SkS now buffs AA, but it still does nothing for HS spam).

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I get what you are saying, but you're comparing the impact of secondary stats to the impact of our exclusive role specific stat. Ultimately, tenacity is weaker, when my internal logic suggests that the tank specific role stat should be stronger than secondaries.

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

Yes, at the end of the day you won't take only 6k damage, you take I guess hundreds of hits during a single fight yes? every single attack be mitigated by those 66 armor bonus yes?

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Except those hundred of hits, will almost always be healed by the very same healing spell, so it won't change anything at all.

Meanwhile, being able to self heal for way more can definitely save your ass ...

Maybe it's just me, and maybe it's been mentioned elsewhere, but when I improve a stat somehow, I want to see the effect it has on my game. When I get a new weapon, or grab another 30 points of my main damage stat, I like seeing the increase in damage or healing I do. More vit let's me see a larger health pool, and joke with my friends about shrugging off mechanics that they get anxious about. Increasing my crit or direct hit rate gives me a visibly tangible result; I see big, pretty numbers with two !!'s more often.

What do I see with Tenacity? Nothing. As far as I can tell the stat is invisible for all the good it does. I'm not saying add an in-your-face way of knowing when Tenacity has positively affected you, but I am saying that it would be nice if the effect it had was noticeable. I want to be excited about gaining another 40 or 50 Tenacity, just like I am on my SAM when I get another piece of +40 Crit materia.

Tenacity does serve a very important purpose. See its there so that our gearing choices are easier. With the wonderful transition of parry to a stat that is about 2× as bad we now only have to look at tome gear then look a raid gear and pick the one that's doesn't have tenacity on It! Gear choices for tanks are sooooo easy!!!