How to I optimize my opener and rotation as Samurai?

I've read all kinds of posts and threads talking about 1 sen / 3 sen openers and such. It all seems unusually complex for a class whose rotation really isn't that hard.

I start out with Hakaze / Shifu / Kasha to build up a sen and then use the Kaiten and Higanbana DOT first. Then Hakaze / Jinpu / Gekko -- Hakaze / Yukikaze and Hakaze / Shifu / Kasha again to build up 3 sen. Then Kaiten + Midare. Rinse and repeat.

I also throw in Shintens as often as possible and reapply Higanbana when I can. But according to people in my party, I still don't do enough DPS.

What am I doing wrong?

I also try to save up Kenki for that big finisher move - I forget what it's called - but you get it at the very end. Guren, I think? Can I use Kaiten with that?

Help!

Stick with the 1 sen opener, its easier and works well on most things. Try the 3 sen once your more comfortable. Here's a few other tips:

- Try to adhere to the 35 rule for Kenki. Meaning, No Shintens unless you have at least 35 Kenki. This puts you one positional combo away from the 20 needed for Kaiten.
- Make sure you are doing the positional requirements. Gekko - behind, Kasha - flank. These give bonus Kenki which means more dps.
- When you have Hagakura available try to use it with 3 sen. Shinten is a more efficient use of Kenki than most other abilities. Meaning its beneficial to give up the Midare to use those 3 sen on a Hagakura.
- Make sure your keeping up all of your buffs. Shifu is the most important one, so prioritize Kasha.
- Kaiten is for weapon skills only and Guren is considered an ability so you cant use them together.

If you have any other questions feel free to fire away and ill answer them as best as I can. I imagine others will do so as well.

Source: iLvl315 Sam main

Thanks so much!

So it's better in the long run to just spam Shinten as long as I have 35+ Kenki rather than saving it up and using Midare? That's surprising.

Is it also then not worth really using Guren either? Just Shinten all day every day?

Is there any appropriate time where one would use Mindare over 3 Sen Hagakura Kenki-filled gauge?

Hagakure is a priority over Midare yes, but if you're playing well you should be getting one Kaiten Midare before Haga comes off CD. When it comes to Kenki use, Guren is the 2nd best move to use. The best use for Kenki is Seigan whenever there's unavoidable damage.

As for your opener... try Hagakure the opening Sen you get, then throw up Kaiten Higanbana once you finish Gekko.

Before that Kaiten I'm typically at 60, so I drop to 40. Then I Meikyo Yuki(Guren) Kasha Gekko(Kaiten) Midare. Admittedly after that opening burst I'm usually at 0 Kenki, but all my heavy hitting moves are already used up, at which point I follow the 35 Kenki rule.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

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If you follow the 35 rule, you will always have at least 10 Kenki. Meaning if you are at 35 and use Shinten(25) you are left with 10. That means you can use Hakakaze(+5 Kenki) > Shifu or Jinpu (+5 Kenki either way) and have the 20 Kenki required for a Kaiten > Midare. So for example: You have 3 sen and 35 kenki. If you use a Shinten you will be reduced to 10 Kenki. You need 20 to Kaiten buff the Midare. You can Hakakaze > Jinpu to generate the needed 10 Kenki, use Kaiten > Midare, then finish the combo with Gekko to get another sen.
Note - If you use Shinten at below 35 you will have to use more than two gcds to generate that 20 Kenki that you need to Kaiten buff the Midare. Meaning you are using Gekko/Kasha/Yukikaze even though you already have the sen for that combo.
So in regards to the first question, you want to do both. The goal of the 35 rule is to make sure you can Kaiten buff every one of your Midare and give you the most Shinten possible.


Use Guren as it is available, it is one of the few things that are a more efficient use of Kenki than Shinten. If its about to come off cooldown make sure you have the Kenki to use - watch the Shinten spam.

Generally speaking no, using the 3 sen for Hagakura is better. But Hagakura has a long cooldown so you will be using Midare every time you get to 3 sen and Hagakura isn't ready.
Caveat - If for some reason you need a spike in dps NOW, you can use the Midare instead of the Hagakura. Few examples being: fight is about over, trick attack is up, add needs to die asap.

So for the most part, something like this:

http://i.imgur.com/1atVAsO.png

would be worth following?

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

So for the most part, something like this:

http://i.imgur.com/1atVAsO.png

would be worth following?

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Well, that's exactly what I've been doing since I hit level 70 and I can guarantee it works very well. I suggest you keep hitting the dummy after that final gekko so you understand how to manage the inevitable Meikyo+Hagakure scenario.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

http://i.imgur.com/1atVAsO.png

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Yes, that is a perfect representation of what to do. And that opener is the "one sen" opener people are generally referring to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

So for the most part, something like this:

http://i.imgur.com/1atVAsO.png

would be worth following?

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I usually double weave the Kaiten and Meikyo but yes, you have the right idea. Remember to take advantage of Seigan whenever you can since its a 20 potency gain over Shinten per Kenki spent.

FYI: Meikyo's 3 charges aren't affected by Iaijutsu.

Hey Guys,

I just started doing Susano Extreme with friends and I noticed my dps was what I felt like, a little low despite my ilvl only being 305; however, after reading about how I should basically be doing 3 sen hagakure on CD and practicing my rotation on a dummy for a good 30 minutes or so, I saw a dramatic increase in my DPS. My Susano opener is now spiking to 4.7k before 2nd phase! Now my only question is once I'm done with the initial 1:30 rotation, and I come to "inevitable Meikyo+Hagakure scenario", what do I do? What I've been doing is basically falling back to the initial opener. Am I correct in doing this?

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Originally Posted by Genjii

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In a perfect scenario against the susy ex dummy I have 3 sen as the Hagakure comes up. So I will typically Hagakure these sen and move into the Meikyo for a Midare. In actual fights its not always so ideal. Generally speaking I will prioritize the Hagakure by using the Meikyo to fill up any missing sen and if I have uses of Meikyo after a 3 sen Hagakure I will use them on whatever sen has the longest time left on its buff.

Interesting... So even if you have 1 or 2 sen, you will use Meikyo to fill up to 3 and use Hagakure anyways? Don't you feel like that's a waste of Meikyo? The CD on it is double that of Hagakure so I've been treating it like I HAVE to use it for a good Midare lineup.

EDIT: Also, when do you guys use your strength potions?? When is it most optimal?

meikyo isn't necessarily wasted on one sen since you can haga and not break meikyo so you can grab 1 or two more sen after haga with shinten spam. also I pop pots before gekko in the opener

this is my biggest issue with the game , everyone says oh people don't know their rotations but yet thats the least discussed thing on the forums, many people have uploaded rotations and stuff but honestly have no idea who to follow

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Originally Posted by Genjii

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Yes, because Shinten is a more efficient use of the Kenki than a Keitan Midare. I dont have a link to the math for that on hand, but it has been accepted by most serious theory crafters that I am aware of. Also as Adriosh pointed out if you already have 1 or 2 sen when Meikyo becomes available you can use it to get the ones you need, Hagakure, then use the rest of your Meikyo uses to fill sen slots back up.

Most str pot rotations I have seen prioritize it before the Gekko or after the 4th GCD.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

this is my biggest issue with the game , everyone says oh people don't know their rotations but yet thats the least discussed thing on the forums, many people have uploaded rotations and stuff but honestly have no idea who to follow

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Lol, true. But, asking for help and discussing with others means admitting you have room to grow and the way you do things may not be the best. Setting aside ones pride is a rare thing on the internet.

So you guys only use Hagakure on 3 sens? What if you only have 1 sen when Hagakure comes off CD? Do you guys just wait to use it and build up your 3 sens?

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Originally Posted by Chronons

Lol, true. But, asking for help and discussing with others means admitting you have room to grow and the way you do things may not be the best. Setting aside ones pride is a rare thing on the internet.

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This. I do consider myself better than the average player, but like I said, I was noticing I wasn't seeing the numbers that I've seen other Samurai's reach so I thought I'd ask what everyone was doing differently. There's always room for improvement, I'm by no means a pro :P.

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Originally Posted by Clover210

So you guys only use Hagakure on 3 sens? What if you only have 1 sen when Hagakure comes off CD? Do you guys just wait to use it and build up your 3 sens?

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I believe so? 3 sen will basically fill up your Kenki gauge. That's why they were telling me to use Meikyo even if I only have 1 or 2 sen up to max up 3 sen for the Hagakure.

3 sen will equate to 60 kenki that 60 kenki dumped into shintens + a GCD will equate to more potency then a midare. the math is there go find it. as for rotational discussion these forums are notorious for perma banning many of the more respected theory crafters which is why that advice isn't so easily found here. Also please rmemeber SAM is still in its infancy stage having one perfect everything you just have to replicate will come with time. (however sam is highly dependent on situation which is why one single "perfect opener/rotation" probably will never exist)

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Originally Posted by Genjii

Hey Guys,

I just...

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After you Hagakure, you'll typically do 4 shintens since you're washing them in between you GCDs to dump it (unless gluten is off cool down).

4 shintens are a total of 1200 potency while kaiten Midare is 1080.
On to of that, K:Midare costs a GCD while shintens spam does not. So not only is it more damage to Hagakure 3 Sen, you will also arrive at you next Sen a GCD sooner. The only times you Midare over Hagakure are when you can't get to 40 or less kenki in 3
Seconds or the lasts % of a boss's health (Because you might not be able to use the converted kenki in time.

I dont get why people say the one sen opener is easier I find the three sen opener to be the easier of the two. That is just my opinion though. Maybe because I play on controller?

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Originally Posted by Nite83

I dont get why people say the one sen opener is easier I find the three sen opener to be the easier of the two. That is just my opinion though. Maybe because I play on controller?

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They both are equal? It is just about where you put your hagakure in your opener, one of them pushes it back and one uses it immediately (lines up big hits for when TA is up)