Why I like the Enmity changes.

Disclaimer: I am not Lv70 yet, so please don't look at this from an Endgame perspective.

With that said, I am enjoying the Enmity increase. I hate it when I go into a dungeon, and I pull and overzealous DPS just start blasting everything in sight, and with the 1.5s GCD, I just can't mash the Flash button fast enough to keep stuff on me. I see orange indicators almost immediately and I have to keep spamming Flash otherwise I start losing mobs in earlier level (<Lv64 dungeons).

This update should help some, but to be honest... one thing I am going to get right out in the open here, our AoE threats being on GCD is what is killing us.

Suggestion: Take Flash off the GCD but give it a 2 second cooldown. This would allow us to use our actual combos while flashing instead of me standing there for 10+ seconds doing nothing but Flash, using up all of my GCDs and such being able to do nothing else.

This kind of gameplay is insanely boring when I'm just standing there spamming Flash Flash Flash Flash Flash because DPS has just gotten too ridiculous and out of hand. Sure, I know how fun it is to play a DPS class, and to just blow up groups of mobs. Yeah, it's fun. I get that.

But have you thought of what it is like to be the tank standing there spamming the same spell over and over again just to make that possible? It's not fun. It makes it boring and it makes it frustrating when I keep losing aggro, especially when the DPS won't stack on the same enemy and they decide that each DPS (and the healer!) should pick their own separate mobs to attack, and they don't stop, or switch targets when they pull aggro either. They just keep going and now I'm reaching for my Provoke and AoE Provoke buttons. It's frustrating and stressful, and personally I feel degraded when I keep losing threat. It makes me feel like I'm not doing doing my job good enough, but yet what more could I possibly do?

This update helps, but I doubt it will fix all of the problems. The problems with tanking I see:

1). Flash is a GCD -- already covered above.
2). Overzealous AoE-happy DPS -- too much DPS, too fast. Why do we need to blow stuff up so fast and so hard? Maybe nerf DPS and mobs' HP both. Perhaps -20% on both across the board. This would also reduce enmity generated by DPS, while keeping the kill speed about the same.
3). Tanks and Healers being encouraged/forced to DPS. -- We are not DPS, nor should we be acting like DPS. I wish I knew where and when this got started. Tanks should be tanks, Healers should be healers. If you wanna DPS, go as DPS.

Just reading some of the other threads here, I see lots of "tanks" who think they are basically DPS with armor, who think they should be trying to maximize DPS. I don't really see any tanks in here with actual tank mentality. Yes, I know, I'm old-fashioned but to be honest... I didn't grab a sword&board to maximize my DPS.

If I wanted to kill junk, I'd switch to SAM, kthx.

I miss flash so much, but yeah! I, too, like the enmity changes; they've made dungeon tanking so much more bearable.

Also I haven't noticed a whole lot of me being 'forced' to DPS lately- with all the SAM and RDM out there I can barely build up a Fell Cleave before stuff falls over.

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Originally Posted by Kumori_Kumo

I miss flash so much, but yeah! I, too, like the enmity changes; they've made dungeon tanking so much more bearable.

Also I haven't noticed a whole lot of me being 'forced' to DPS lately- with all the SAM and RDM out there I can barely build up a Fell Cleave before stuff falls over.

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Earlier level, trash mobs just explode the moment the DPS pull out their weapons. But higher level bosses... they expect you to put out a certain amount of DPS, otherwise you're "terrible". Judging from the threads here, they say that you should be tanking in DPS stance and wearing full DPS stats on your jewelry. *sigh*

That's not what I took up the sword&shield for. I am not a DPS. Stop trying to make me one.

As it is, Flash oGCD would be broken.

But, that would be frickin sweet! (also, the GCD is 2.5s, not 1.5s)
Id also make another AoE with 0 threat, but does dmg, like their current WS, as a replacement, so you're only using flash until ur far enough ahead to throw in dmg as your weaved ability.

But maybe this could be made, and balanced for a future tank job.
(Kinda needs to take up MP, so as to feel MP is better spent on abilities other than AoEs which do no dmg, to keep it ballanced.)

Is it 2.5s? Whatever it is.

If it is 2.5s then Flash could be OGCD but with a 3-4 second cooldown instead. You'd still have your AoE WS and usually early-game, DPS don't get their big AoEs until the 30ish range anyways.

I just don't like the fact the need for Flash spam locks down 90% of my hotbar.

, PLD has held on for years with only Flash as is... Might be just wait til 5.0 when a new Job Ability (Flash II) comes that upgrades Flash to an AOE Holy Spirit ..?

I can afford to wait if that is to be the case.

You might not have the mentality of maximizing DPS, but the tanks who do so happen to speed up the dungeon. You don't have to do it right off the bats, but just consider that there is such a thing as TOO MUCH enmity.

For example, when you're fighting the dungeon bosses, you don't just spam your enmity combo. That would be an example of a tank who couldn't care less about their damage. Doing that takes 0 effort, and yet guarantees the boss will stay focused on them. However, why would you do that, when there are other skills you could be using and STILL keep the boss on you?

Figuring out where and how you can squeeze in that extra bit of damage is what "maximizing DPS" is really about, and honestly it's part of the fun of playing a tank. It was never about doing as much damage as the DPS classes.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

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For some tanks, yeah, it's about squeezing out a little DPS.

But yet a lot of tanks I hear talking sound like they take this to ludicrous levels. IMO, putting DPS stats on your gear is "too far". We're not talking about using Requi... errr Royal Authority over Rage of Halone here. Those are skills SE gave us, for a reason. We're not talking using Sword Oath (though I would still debate that Shield Oath is better because of the reduced incoming damage which means the healer doesn't have to throw as many heals).

We're talking about melding DPS materia onto Tank Gear.

That's a whole different ballgame.

That to me says that a "tank" who is doing that is concerned more about their DPS than their survivability.

Maxmizing dps means making the most out of the damage that you have. While I agree that vit should again be part of damage calculation for scaling, I think that square should make it so that vit only adds a small amount of damage. This is so that players can still feel some kind of "progression" aside from huge hp pools while at the same time achieving squares clear aim of curbing the dps meta. Tanks right now don't want to maximize dps they want a flat out dps increase. Square clearly wants to have the more traditional tank role so they buffed enmity. The real problem I see with this is that the comminity is so used to the dps meta that I fear that the tank population will drop even more as square tries to make tanks more traditional. Maybe improve the tankbuster mechanics so that the god mode cds cant cover it by themselves and instead require the tank to have more hp to survive. Also, WAR and DRK tuning should be done to make them feel as fun and "natural" as a paladin

Sorry OP you just want to be lazy and not use your class at even 50% of its potential. If the developer gave you tools to boost your dmg output, guess what? They want you to do some sort of damage or they would had kept the PLD meta around pure utility and mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

We're talking about melding DPS materia onto Tank Gear.

That's a whole different ballgame.

That to me says that a "tank" who is doing that is concerned more about their DPS than their survivability.

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The only materia you can meld on gear is DPS materia though? You can meld Crit, Det, Direct Hit, Skill Speed and tenacity. Tenacity reducing damage taken about as well as a paper towel means you're better off going for Crit or Direct hit which are stronger per point than the other choices you have.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Earlier level, trash mobs just explode the moment the DPS pull out their weapons. But higher level bosses... they expect you to put out a certain amount of DPS, otherwise you're "terrible". Judging from the threads here, they say that you should be tanking in DPS stance and wearing full DPS stats on your jewelry. *sigh*

That's not what I took up the sword&shield for. I am not a DPS. Stop trying to make me one.

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You're welcome to use full vitality gear and stay in shield oath for the entire duration of your dungeon run, then. There's no penalty for it other than taking more time, and there never was one.

Boy, I sure am not tired of being told that I'm not a true tank because I care about my dps

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Boy, I sure am not tired of being told that I'm not a true tank because I care about my dps

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Or that you shouldn't be doing DPS because you're a tank and "tanks don't DPS"

Yeah, it's pretty grating.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Earlier level, trash mobs just explode the moment the DPS pull out their weapons. But higher level bosses... they expect you to put out a certain amount of DPS, otherwise you're "terrible". Judging from the threads here, they say that you should be tanking in DPS stance and wearing full DPS stats on your jewelry. *sigh*

That's not what I took up the sword&shield for. I am not a DPS. Stop trying to make me one.

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When I am leveling a DPS class I hate when I get the slow and deliberate tanks that don't push the pace or DPS. As a tank main I know how fast things can be done and when you're running a dungeon for the 1000th time (anima weapons, leveling alts, grinding tomes) I don't have the patience for a 35m dungeon.

A good tank can keep it in the 15-20m range.

The enmity changes are certainly nice and solve the problems with enmity... for the time being . in a few patches when ilvl is increased its just going to become a problem again unless we see some more meaningful changes, because while dps attack power will go up exponentially, ours will only go up half as fast with the way it currently works. Tanks using STR accessories in 3.0-3.3 (or whenever they changed the damage calculations to VIT) didnt use them JUST for the damage, it massively helped for generating enough enmity to actually do your job in the first place, especially as the fight design in this game is more about big tank buster than it is about constant fast damage on you so having too much HP didnt actually benefit you aslong as you could survive a tank buster comfortably.

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Originally Posted by Poison_Rose

Or that you shouldn't be doing DPS because you're a tank and "tanks don't DPS"

Yeah, it's pretty grating.

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Yeah I hate being in a pool of lazy casual tanks who just sit there and think tanks shouldn't dps. My group wants me to wear slaying, because I'm used to tanking in gordias in slaying, however I do understand the vit change and which I'm okay with, but they should have designed tenacity to better the dps lost from vit.