SE Needs to put VIT back into our Damage Modifier

Tanking has been a pretty rocky experience across the board, from what I'm reading here and on Reddit, and from my own experience as a WAR, too.

The sneakiest nerf SE dealt all of us was removing VIT from our attack power, making us purely STR based.... While also locking us out of wearing any new STR accessories.

What are the implications?

Lower enmity generation due to lower damage.

As everyone else's stats/iLvl/Damage increase, Tanks are going to plateau and be massively weaker than the DPS we are meant to hold aggro from, making this harder and our job less rewarding to play.

Even with full Strength VI melds on our right side, that is a static number that will not go up the same way other roles are going to have stat and attack power increases. We'll always be held beneath DPS, rather than on equal footing. I'm not referring to doing the same kind of DPS as a DPS class--I'm referring to being at a similar level of damage proportional to theirs, so that there isn't a massive disparity in damage that causes problems for the entire party.

It's not fun.
This is more important than people give credit for. We play this game to have fun and enjoy ourselves. When it becomes frustrating and stops being fun, what's the point? Being locked into a single stance, and perhaps even a single combo with only a few cooldowns is not fun at all. We have multiple stances and a wide toolkit that's meant to be used, but if we're shoehorned into only doing our enmity combo, it becomes boring and even at times frustrating when dealing with particularly potent DPS.

Just give us VIT back, even if it's at a lower weight than it was in Heavensward. Put us back on equal footing with the rest of our party--leaving us perpetually a cut below feels punitive and it takes the joy out of Tanking and puts more stress on the DPS to manage their aggro (Most won't do it anyway, which puts that stress right back on Tanks).

I thought SE wanted more tanks, not less.

Some comparison of attack power with VIT accessories (Ilvl306 total), vs my old 270 Slaying Accessories.

STR:
https://i.gyazo.com/6a572386c9a7fe71...de64a541cd.png

VIT:
https://i.gyazo.com/1ff71a910f99e5aa...b4a43aa001.png

Conclusion: Wtf.

you should post this on general forums and reddit as well. we need this to get as much attention as possible, its the most glaring issue with tanks right now and itll only get worse

I liked it better when it was STR only, but we could meld STR in advanced slots and equip slaying accessories.

When they changed to STR/VIT I never liked that either.

Other option: Make Tenacity provide more damage than it currently does----enough to counteract this. This will make it good enough for people to stack it #1, which will also have an effect on mitigation/healing received since Tenacity offers all.

Or they could just put both STR and VIT on tank accessories since now accessories are role-locked, this way we'd actually meld for extra secondary stats on our accessories like everyone else instead of a primary stat

True, with them being role locked they can put 'extra' stats on them now without breaking DPS classes.

In fact, that would be the easiest fix.

We would still meld strength though. They wouldn't get as much STR as the slaying accessories did, because then our ATK power would be the same and they have always kept it less.

So if the accessories weren't STR capped, the best meld would still be STR.

Accessories on tanks then would be unique with not being "overpriced" since they would be about equal to belts.

Now that I think about it, they probably wouldn't put much STR on an accessory. Even if it was 1/2 the Vitality, we could then meld 25 STR from a STR VI materia. It would probably bring our ATK power too close to DPS for SE's comfort.

If it is an enmity problem they are probably more likely to just increase tank stance modifiers.

We will get more STR on our armor as well. I really don't see the problem with STR increasing our DPS only, while VIT increases our HP. It was weird that VIT also increased DPS to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Gunnie

We will get more STR on our armor as well. I really don't see the problem with STR increasing our DPS only, while VIT increases our HP. It was weird that VIT also increased DPS to begin with.

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Yes, but that gap is going to widen. DPS will be getting their primary stats on both Left and Right side, where we will be going up only on our Left side with a hard cap of 125 on our Right side indefinitely. The gap is going to widen the higher we all progress.

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Originally Posted by Pyrali

Yes, but that gap is going to widen. DPS will be getting their primary stats on both Left and Right side, where we will be going up only on our Left side with a hard cap of 125 on our Right side indefinitely. The gap is going to widen the higher we all progress.

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While the gap will widen it will not widen so fast that tanks will be unable to hold hate while in tank stance. Even if it does happen SE will just adjust the enmity multiplier of the tank stances.

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Originally Posted by Pyrali

Yes, but that gap is going to widen. DPS will be getting their primary stats on both Left and Right side, where we will be going up only on our Left side with a hard cap of 125 on our Right side indefinitely. The gap is going to widen the higher we all progress.

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Never had an issue ever holding hate off a dps. Tank stance multiplier is so high.

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Originally Posted by Pyrali

Yes, but that gap is going to widen. DPS will be getting their primary stats on both Left and Right side, where we will be going up only on our Left side with a hard cap of 125 on our Right side indefinitely. The gap is going to widen the higher we all progress.

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The gap won't widen for the very simple reason that the % lower str we have at the moment in comparison to DPS won't change. If we gain 50 ilvls in gear, we still have the same % lower str then we have now. I don't see the problem with being locked into VIT jewelry at all.
When I check all the str I can get currently with the verity gear , it's 1270 str. Not counting any materia. If I could equip all str jewelry it would be 1804. That means I have 70,4% (rounded up) of the str a DPS would have.
As my ilvl increases, it will stay that 70,4%. Which means the gap isn't widening at all, and we can keep emnity fine.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Or they could just put both STR and VIT on tank accessories since now accessories are role-locked, this way we'd actually meld for extra secondary stats on our accessories like everyone else instead of a primary stat

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Holy shit that would be AMAZING.

Some people apparently think substats will make up for the difference. I'm like, have you seen what Tenacity does? It's really really bad. Reddit thread with some Tenacity testing. That's on a lot of accessories. Determination seems to have been buffed but it's probably still linear. Substats generally don't make up for a main stat. There's a reason everyone was up in arms about i280 weapons.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...apons/desy96v/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...apons/det2y0n/

That being said, if SE buffs Tenacity to be on par with a main stat, I will eat my words.

There's a lot of things that need to be fixed in terms of tank dps/emnity. I understand the streamlining they wanted to achieve: Eliminate the confusion between vit vs str accessories. They role locked it to eliminate that confusion, which is fine but there lies the issue outlined in the OP. I feel like they didn't know what to do with vit and just kept it on accessories. For the record I feel like using vit to effect damage is a horrible idea.

What I feel they should have done is make tenacity the variance between tank and dps accessories. I would have liked to see tenacity act differently than it does now. It should effect emnity and damage dealt (despite the tool tip saying it does effect damage this does not seem to be the case). Vit can then be scaled appropriately on main armor pieces. There is one more thing that I feel absolutely needs to be done. Rather than count on fluff (ie Vit) to deal with incoming damage, I feel like armor should be the factor for incoming damage.

I actually kind of like how enmity works now. At least on Lakshmi, DPS have to actually use Diversion/their enmity dropping skills at proper times if the tanks want to be in a DPS stance. As a paladin I've had to actually use a decent amount of Halones instead of RA while tanking in sword oath (which forces me to judge whether or not I'll make the MP threshold in time for Requiescat and whether I need to burn my Sheltrons now or if I can save them for the tank busters). It also emphasizes maximizing your shield swipe cooldown. Lakshmi is also kind of an odd duck because the #2 position on hate matters. On Susanoo, tank swap->Shirk makes enmity pretty much trivial. I also imagine bringing a Ninja would make Lakshmi or keeping enmity off of a Samurai (the biggest enmity generator I've seen - maybe Monk matches them) much easier.

These extreme primals are super easy so it's hard to judge balance on them, but I actually expect enmity to be a little easier in raids - tank swaps will be more common (giving opportunity to shirk) and DPS usually have to do mechanics more often. Healers usually generate more threat in raids than in EX primals, but they have Lucid Dreaming so it's not that big of a deal.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

I actually kind of like how enmity works now. At least on Lakshmi, DPS have to actually use Diversion/their enmity dropping skills at proper times if the tanks want to be in a DPS stance. As a paladin I've had to actually use a decent amount of Halones instead of RA while tanking in sword oath (which forces me to judge whether or not I'll make the MP threshold in time for Requiescat and whether I need to burn my Sheltrons now or if I can save them for the tank busters). It also emphasizes maximizing your shield swipe cooldown. Lakshmi is also kind of an odd duck because the #2 position on hate matters. On Susanoo, tank swap->Shirk makes enmity pretty much trivial. I also imagine bringing a Ninja would make Lakshmi or keeping enmity off of a Samurai (the biggest enmity generator I've seen - maybe Monk matches them) much easier.

These extreme primals are super easy so it's hard to judge balance on them, but I actually expect enmity to be a little easier in raids - tank swaps will be more common (giving opportunity to shirk) and DPS usually have to do mechanics more often. Healers usually generate more threat in raids than in EX primals, but they have Lucid Dreaming so it's not that big of a deal.

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Try putting on all 270 STR accessories. More than a few tanks have said most of their aggro issues entirely disappeared because the damage alone fills the gap. Neither EX Primals sounds challenging enough to warrant the extra HP anyway, which is currently making those old STR accessories BiS for tanks despite the 50 ilvl difference. Basically, SE massively screwed up their scaling.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...lv_70_warrior/

I agree, moving away from the STR/VIT .45 is a stepbackwards. If you felt inclined to reduce it to .4/.4 - fine, but STR and accessory lock.. Backwards, did they forget why they changed it in the first place

Ironically for DRK, down the road @ higher ilvl or outgearing content, they will want STR over VIT just to help get their Black Night bubble to pop within 5 seconds. A fading barrier is a wasted barrier.

Agreed. I have no idea why they went backwards on STR/VIT. If they insist on tying our Attack Power to STR, then give us STR on our accessories (or at least let us equip new STR accessories).

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Try putting on all 270 STR accessories. More than a few tanks have said most of their aggro issues entirely disappeared because the damage alone fills the gap. Neither EX Primals sounds challenging enough to warrant the extra HP anyway, which is currently making those old STR accessories BiS for tanks despite the 50 ilvl difference. Basically, SE massively screwed up their scaling.

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I know about this, but SE probably does too. I'm operating under the assumption that raids probably won't allow you to get away with this or, alternatively, that they'll be changing the old accessories. If everyone starts using i270 shit they'll almost certainly change something.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

I know about this, but SE probably does too. I'm operating under the assumption that raids probably won't allow you to get away with this or, alternatively, that they'll be changing the old accessories. If everyone starts using i270 shit they'll almost certainly change something.

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Definitely. I can't imagine they aren't remedy this in one of the patch updates either before Omega or right as it releases. Would be downright silly otherwise. That being said, I have somewhat mixed feelings towards the change. On the one hand, I've always liked the idea of tanks having to be more aware of their aggro management compared to 3.x where I pulled, went into Deliverance and never thought about aggro again. On the other, I don't want to see tanks forced into perpetual tank stance just because the DPS deal so much more damage it's impossible for them to hold aggro. Not a concern now, but it definitely will become one since tanks gain mostly HP from their right side.

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Originally Posted by jjleon_2

I feel like they didn't know what to do with vit and just kept it on accessories.

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I think it's more an itemization issue. If you remove VIT from accessories, you're setting up all items to have essentially the same stats (Crit, Skill/Spell Speed, Determination, Tenacity/Direct Hit). I'd not be opposed to that, since you can differentiate items by having them lean toward one stat specifically, but I can see people complaining about how they have no choice in stats or how accs don't feel "unique" or something.

aggro generation is enhanced for tank stance and emnity combo, no problem whatsoever with aggro now why change back to vit? As op said,SE wants more tanks, not blueicondps, a tank can't be equal in damage as actual dps, if you choose to use less emnity combo it's your problem not SE's

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

aggro generation is enhanced for tank stance and emnity combo, no problem whatsoever with aggro now why change back to vit? As op said,SE wants more tanks, not blueicondps, a tank can't be equal in damage as actual dps, if you choose to use less emnity combo it's your problem not SE's

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then why were the majority of our new SB ability's dps attacks with no emnity included? speaking for DRK, the blood gauge is almost useless from a tank stand point, we waste a gcd on a dps ability taking away from emnity generation? why?

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

aggro generation is enhanced for tank stance and emnity combo, no problem whatsoever with aggro now why change back to vit? As op said,SE wants more tanks, not blueicondps, a tank can't be equal in damage as actual dps, if you choose to use less emnity combo it's your problem not SE's

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yea lets just sit in tank stance doing our 123 combo and ignore 3/4 of our kit. Try that shit back in a3s and see what would have happened to you lol sorry catboy it doesnt work like that. And no i dont want to give up what dps I do have cause bad players flock to the real dps roles. I hit enrage timer on susano ex yesterday even though I peaked at over 3k dps.

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Originally Posted by Gunnie

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You're doing the math wrong. The gap *will* widen because while yes, we do get STR on our left side, we do *not* get any more than 125 STR on our right side, assuming we slot tank gear for the right side. This is because the tank right side gear only has VIT, with a single slot for materia (which will be used for 25 STR). Meanwhile, DPS are getting primary stats for damage (DEX, STR, INT) on both the right AND the left. So while our VIT on the right side goes up (cause we are using tank accessories) our STR remains static at 125 (5x 25 STR materia). So the DPS stats on the right side are scaling up *just like our VIT is* but because we can only have a static amount of STR on the right side, our damage is *not* increasing as accessory ilvl increases (while for DPS, it most assuredly *is* increasing).

This will create a gap that will not easily be bridged. Better to just bring VIT back as a dmg increase for tanks at the same ratio it was in HW. It worked out that way, and as a tank it meant both left and right sides scaled in proportion to DPS as ilvl went up.

Putting some scaling STR on tank accessories would work to combat the scaling problem, though it'd make STR materia worthless. At a certain point they just have to revamp materia - especially now that VIT accessories are class locked. What the hell is the point of DEX/INT/MND materia? It can't go in any slots where it'll actually have an effect. Actually, the final solution would be to make all accessories have only VIT and some secondary stats/effects along with a materia slot for the main stat of your choice.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Putting some scaling STR on tank accessories would work to combat the scaling problem, though it'd make STR materia worthless. At a certain point they just have to revamp materia - especially now that VIT accessories are class locked. What the hell is the point of DEX/INT/MND materia? It can't go in any slots where it'll actually have an effect. Actually, the final solution would be to make all accessories have only VIT and some secondary stats/effects along with a materia slot for the main stat of your choice.

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No, we could still meld STR. They wouldn't be putting so much STR on the accessories that we would reach the stat cap for that item.

If they did, then we would have the same ATK power as DPS. Even if it was 1/2, with melds we would get close. At least for this ilevel.

Hell, I'd be satisfied if the ratio was for the i310 accessories to have about 40. Melding would put another 25 on that.

Thank youv ery much. I notice that since last sunday. I saw the problem and didn't understand where he came from !

It's harder to generate hate now and hate on a pack of adds

Its sad cause, the way to deal with this now is to use i270 str accessories and meld some vit on them. You lose hp but the loss in dps and threat from these 'changes' is far to immense.

They should frankly, just put str on fending accessories (in addition to vit) and make them tank only. Would solve the issues.

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Originally Posted by Falar

No, we could still meld STR. They wouldn't be putting so much STR on the accessories that we would reach the stat cap for that item.

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Historically, meld caps have actually been individually set per stat and item. I mean STR has had full meld potential on vit accessories, but MND/DEX (iirc) haven't. I think if they were to put STR on VIT accs then they'd lower the STR caps on all of them to match. I didn't clarify that in my original post though, sorry.
http://i.imgur.com/vrysMuL.jpg

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Its sad cause, the way to deal with this now is to use i270 str accessories and meld some vit on them. You lose hp but the loss in dps and threat from these 'changes' is far to immense.

They should frankly, just put str on fending accessories (in addition to vit) and make them tank only. Would solve the issues.

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They should just go back to the previous change to tank damage. That is, the vit/str split was fine even though it was a nerf to old tank dps. It was still a lot better than what they did with the SB tank damage change given that we can no longer slot slaying pieces post-sb.

Is the damage modifier still .9 for tanks? or is it 1:1 now that they removed the vit/str split? I'm currently running with some 270 slaying accessories, basically anything with no tenacity or sks and the difference in holding hate is much more noticeable. I only need to Steel Cyclone once and maybe overpower once when new adds spawn to hold hate. Before I was using all the 310 vit accessories and I find myself spamming overpower far more often and losing hate much more easily. Tanking as war is much more stressful than it needs to be and that makes it less fun to play the job.

It is 1:1 on STR now.

Whatever your STR is, your attack power is.

Vitality just gives hp.

It's really stupid that we have to compromise the point of our role in order to optimize our DPS when we didn't have to before. It's especially grating because they fixed that very problem on healers the exact same time they broke it again for tanks.

It'd be one thing if we could use the same accessories as everyone else. It's another thing entirely that we have to use outdated accessories to accomplish that; it's almost downright insulting. I don't even care about enmity generation that much, as it's the difference of one or two uses of our enmity combo at worst. I care about the fact that we're the only role that actually has to make sacrifices to optimize our damage output.

I'd honestly even settle for outright removing our ability to use the i270 strength accessories. I just hate feeling like I'm giving up something to perform my role the best I can.

This really needs to be fixed, although I'm only expecting a half-assed bandaid and a "please look forward to it :D" response to these complaints.

Then again, the vit:str split was quite obviously lazy too but ended up working out fine, so who knows.

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Originally Posted by Falar

I liked it better when it was STR only, but we could meld STR in advanced slots and equip slaying accessories.

When they changed to STR/VIT I never liked that either.

Other option: Make Tenacity provide more damage than it currently does----enough to counteract this. This will make it good enough for people to stack it #1, which will also have an effect on mitigation/healing received since Tenacity offers all.

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To be honest, I thought that was the point of tenacity since it is a way to give tanks better attack using an alternate stat, not STR. Since if it worked right Tenacity has benefits that STR does not. But it surely seems that the scaling/weighting of Tenacity is wrong/broken.

[Satire] You guys aren't looking big picture. In patch 4.2 vitality will get fixed, as SE will notice that tanks are holding on to strength accessories. Then around 4.4 SE will acknowledge that tenacity is a bad stat that tanks are avoiding and will promise to look into it. Then they will announce that in 5.0 tenacity will be removed and a new shiny tanks stat will take its place. Of course they will break str/vit again, and the new stat will also be garbage. Think of the thrills. And repeat. [/Satire]

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

You guys aren't looking big picture. In pathlch 4.2 vitality will get fixed, as SE will notice that tanks are holding on to strength accessories. Then around 4.4 SE will acknowledge that tenacity is a bad stat that tanks are avoiding and will promise to look into it. Then they will announce that in 5.0 tenacity will be removed and a new shiny tanks stat will take its place. Of course they will break str/vit again, and the new stat will also be garbage. Think of the thrills. And repeat.

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Ok so that's about a year and a half from now and some of us don't want to wait.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

Ok so that's about a year and a half from now and some of us don't want to wait.

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You said all. We didn't want to got a fix so long than healer got it the previous year.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

Ok so that's about a year and a half from now and some of us don't want to wait.

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I don't know how I could have presented my sarcasm more than I did. Maybe later when I'm not on phone I'll add some [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] to book end the paragraph.