The rationale behind nerfing WHM and SCH?

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06-17-2017, 06:43 AM
Annah

The rationale behind nerfing WHM and SCH?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but is there an actual explanation behind Yoshi's team nerfing the WHM?

I thought they wanted a WHM to be a pure healer right? Not sure I understand why they've removed so many of their healing and protection aspects.
06-17-2017, 07:00 AM
Kabzy

They didn't really nerf WHM, they just didn't give them much. The only issue of WHMs they addressed was mana recovery.

SCH got nerfed hard. But even sadder is how much its gameplay has changed because our DPS is essentially a carbon copy of WHM now. Maybe they wanted to make SCH terrible so that it's competitive with WHM at least. Cause we all know AST is god tier atm. xD
06-17-2017, 07:17 AM
Ametrine

It does feel like Scholar is being put in an identical spot as White Mage. So far, though, I like this newer Scholar.

But why is Astrologian so broken now?
Have our complaints over the near useless unless you pull a balance card RNG given them the wrong idea that Astrologian was unappealing or too weak, still??
06-17-2017, 07:25 AM
MomomiMomi

SCH needed a nerf. I'm not sure if they went a little too far, but it wasn't unreasonable to nerf them.

WHM didn't really get nerfed, but if they were trying to make it the "pure healer" they were way off the mark. That's also a terrible design for a healer.

I'm not sure what they're thinking with AST though. I'm sure it's going to get some adjustments to it, but I don't know what they could do.
06-17-2017, 07:29 AM
Risvertasashi

Quote:

Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

WHM didn't really get nerfed,

Divine Seal was flat out and pretty heavily nerfed.

Less directly but still... WHM also lost the most with the new cross role system.
06-17-2017, 07:31 AM
Lambdafish

Quote:

Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

SCH needed a nerf. I'm not sure if they went a little too far, but it wasn't unreasonable to nerf them.

If anything, AST needed the nerf. Instead, it got buffed.
06-17-2017, 07:32 AM
Elfidan

My friend quit today after looking at his whm... pretty grim changes to be sure.
06-17-2017, 07:34 AM
LunaFaye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabzy

They didn't really nerf WHM, they just didn't give them much. The only issue of WHMs they addressed was mana recovery.

SCH got nerfed hard. But even sadder is how much its gameplay has changed because our DPS is essentially a carbon copy of WHM now. Maybe they wanted to make SCH terrible so that it's competitive with WHM at least. Cause we all know AST is god tier atm. xD

Nah they wanted you guys to feel the pain that WHM experienced in 2.x. AS they weren't allowed or taken and it was SCH slot. Then as WHM and AST got still nailed throughout 3.x, SCH's didn't have to worry 'bout a thing. Now with 4.0 it's SCH's turn. At least SCH and WHM can both sit outside on the bench, would suck if we just single out WHM again.
06-17-2017, 07:34 AM
Verdan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ametrine

It does feel like Scholar is being put in an identical spot as White Mage. So far, though, I like this newer Scholar.

But why is Astrologian so broken now?
Have our complaints over the near useless unless you pull a balance card RNG given them the wrong idea that Astrologian was unappealing or too weak, still??

The Ast's bad design means this is going to keep happening forever. It can't be a copy of the white mage with shields, that's just never going to work. It'll either be too weak because they're trying to balance for utility and choice, be too powerful because it has the same capabilities but additional utility.

Or they could somehow fail amazingly and make it too powerful because it has stronger heals, shields, AND the good cards while everything costs less mana. That could happen too, but who would manage to make THAT mistake? No developer would ever do that! Either way, the Ast will always be a problem until they rework the class. Maybe in the expansion where they add a tank and a healer to figure out DPS class balance they'll get rebuilt to make sense. For now, it's best to pretend it doesn't exist if you don't wanna play it.
06-17-2017, 07:41 AM
MomomiMomi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verdan

The Ast's bad design means this is going to keep happening forever. It can't be a copy of the white mage with shields, that's just never going to work. It'll either be too weak because they're trying to balance for utility and choice, be too powerful because it has the same capabilities but additional utility.

The problem lies with WHM mostly. The fact that all they have is heals means that every healer ever will be "WHM plus more."
06-17-2017, 07:43 AM
Risvertasashi

Quote:

Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

The problem lies with WHM mostly. The fact that all they have is heals means that every healer ever will be "WHM plus more."

Not really, no. Other MMOs manage to give healers very different playstyles while still accomplishing essentially the same core function.

Cloning the WHM kit and slapping cards on top of that... it's purely lack of any creative thought from the dev team. And even then, they could simply make WHM stronger instead of... as has been mentioning, giving AST stronger heals AND all the utility.
06-17-2017, 07:46 AM
MomomiMomi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Not really, no. Other MMOs manage to give healers very different playstyles while still accomplishing essentially the same core function.

Cloning the WHM kit and slapping cards on top of that... it's purely lack of any creative thought from the dev team. And even then, they could simply make WHM stronger instead of... as has been mentioning, giving AST stronger heals AND all the utility.

It doesn't take a genius to realize that if:

1. A job has heals and nothing else
2. All jobs must be able to heal well enough.

That the job that has only heals is going to get left out. A pure healer is just bad design.
06-17-2017, 07:49 AM
Risvertasashi

Quote:

Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

It doesn't take a genius to realize that if:

1. A job has heals and nothing else
2. All jobs must be able to heal well enough.

That the job that has only heals is going to get left out. A pure healer is just bad design.

To some extent I do agree. Imagine how much more it would have done for balancing if Balance and Chain Strategem were in Cross Role instead of nerfed Divine Seal and the SoS/LA in-between called Lucid Dreaming?

That said, even if SE is pursuing this pure healer vision, there's just no excuse for what they've done.
06-17-2017, 07:57 AM
MomomiMomi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

That said, even if SE is pursuing this pure healer vision, there's just no excuse for what they've done.

This is true. Like I said, I don't know what they're doing; I doubt even they know what they're doing. I expect adjustments, because right now, AST has the better heals than the "pure healer." I don't know how they managed to mess up that bad.
06-17-2017, 08:14 AM
Verdan

Quote:

Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

The problem lies with WHM mostly. The fact that all they have is heals means that every healer ever will be "WHM plus more."

Except the scholar was a totally different class. The white mage's lack of identity besides "heals good" is a problem, but the ast heals almost exactly the same as white mage in their white mage stance, and heals like a white mage with succor and an instant aldo in their scholar stance. There is no way to balance the power of these abilities well. It's not good healer design, and there's no way the ast ever works right until it changes.
06-17-2017, 11:24 PM
Kabzy

Quote:

Originally Posted by LunaFaye

Nah they wanted you guys to feel the pain that WHM experienced in 2.x. AS they weren't allowed or taken and it was SCH slot. Then as WHM and AST got still nailed throughout 3.x, SCH's didn't have to worry 'bout a thing. Now with 4.0 it's SCH's turn. At least SCH and WHM can both sit outside on the bench, would suck if we just single out WHM again.

You're missing part of the point here. I could deal with SCH being the weakest (it probably is atm), because good players can still make a job shine. But losing our core playstyle, identity and basically becoming a copy of the other two healers is extremely lame. Nerfs are fine, and probably needed to some extent, but changing a playstyle to become less engaging is really not. A shame that SE decided to dumb down arguably one of their best designed jobs since 2.x.
06-17-2017, 11:53 PM
Gemina

Quote:

Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

The problem lies with WHM mostly. The fact that all they have is heals means that every healer ever will be "WHM plus more."

Actually no, the problem is AST who can now do everything the other two healers can do, but better. Their utility should balance weaker shields, heals, and DPS capability. They SHOULD NOT have all this utility, AND stronger shields, AND stronger heals. They are not getting any closer to balance continuing to buff AST, in fact they are drifting further and further away from it. The other thing drifting away is the hope for another healer like Dancer, which so many players want.

I am also with the others that WHM didn't really get nerfed. They lost skills to the role system, but they are still available. Losing stoneskin is worse on paper than actuality, so their one true nerf was losing Divine Seal, which I would have excluded as well if not for the 10% reduction. The lily and confession stack mechanics don't do anything to hurt WHM, so the job plays essentially the same with heavy AoE heals and damage. The problem most have with WHM is that they didn't get anything.