SE, MCH and RDM have no Dots!

While both classes are ranged, both classes possess no dots to handle a multi target raid scenario. What is the purpose behind this choice? I can see it really adding no overall value to play, but in situations with multiple targets MCH will fall behind BRD in damage. Same situation with RDM vs BLM/SMN Fights similar to A1s A8S and A11S come to mind. :O Response please?

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Originally Posted by Ephier

While both classes are ranged, both classes possess no dots to handle a multi target raid scenario. What is the purpose behind this choice? I can see it really adding no overall value to play, but in situations with multiple targets MCH will fall behind BRD in damage. Same situation with RDM vs BLM/SMN Fights similar to A1s A8S and A11S come to mind. :O Response please?

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4.0 Patch Notes:

Open DoTs have been removed unless including synergy buried beneath other forcible rotated mechanics.
Combo DoTs remain as they have never been separately planned for, and therefore offered no new element in gameplay or rotational choice.
Please enjoy.

On topic: cleave potential has been crippled across most jobs. It's no longer a given that a job ought to benefit from DoT spreads.

Shurrikhan explained it well

Also, granting everyone a DoT does nothing but make the game more homogenized than it currently is.
When I was told "The summoner is a Doter", well.. everyone has between 1-2 dot and a few jobs got 3 DoT.
So the Summoner was hardly special and unique by applying DoTs.

Removing DoT that don't do anything but add 1% to your overall damage is a good way to make job less homogenized.
Same goes for combo or position requirement.

If Monk were the only job heavily dependant on position for combo, then it is a core aspect of the job (that you could later expand)
If every melee have half their skills based on position, then it is just... baseline, it is not a core aspect of the job.

So removing things that promote nothing isn't a bad choice.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Also, granting everyone a DoT does nothing but make the game more homogenized than it currently is.

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A shared addition of a core concept doesn't make anything more homogeneous than a shared lack thereof. The way its inclusion in the opportunity costs of one's rotation, with-DoTs from without-DoTs, however, can diversify rotations depending on the preexistant intervals and internal balance involved. DoTs themselves are a simple option check of "can I get x duration out of this as to make it worthwhile?" Free DoTs, further, ask the question of "is this global worth spending on this DoT given my current buff window, the GCDs required to execute a full combo, and the resources or effects generated thereby?" It's a shallow increase to complexity, but it's still something. I don't think any game's ever treated that as the exclusive basis for a class, though. You don't make a class based on the inclusion of periodic damage. It's not going to be a core aspect until there's a whole lot more involvement and synergy than simply "at intervals of 3 seconds over x duration".

The same is true of positionals. No one claimed Monk was based on positionals. It used to be based on attack rate and fine control of its combo 'cycles' available through open, stance-less skills (ToD and Fracture). Now?... Who can say?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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Thankyou. I feel like I was going to be a crazy person trying to convince people that losing Lead Shot made my rotation less diverse and just overall seems like I'm going to have less to think about. Sometimes you would delay using it or wait to use it based on the given situation and in conjunction with juggling oGCD abilities and trying to figure out burst windows it made for interesting decisions. As a MCH they literally just took everything complex about this class threw it out the window and said here, have a heat gauge. We lost 6 oGCD abilities and our dot.

Nobody said losing a DoT doesn't simplify the class; he said it makes it less homogenous to other classes (which it definitionally is if they have dots).

Frankly, with the absolute turd city that FFXIV is in regards to UI tracking of dots, I would give anything to have the classes that I like lose their dots, even at a cost of reduced complexity.

The OP argued that there is no value in the choice to remove dots, but there is; it is different to other classes, and not having dots means not having the downside of having some of your damage tied to a dot that may not get to run its full course. DoTs gain value in multitarget situations but they lose value in short burst situations or limited windows for doing damage. You can make the argument that you'd prefer the former than the latter, but neither is intrinsically more valuable without considering specific scenarios and numbers.

this is a nice change. going into a 24man and having your damage significantly reduced because there arent enough debuff slots as a bard was already a problem. but the way they balanced almost all of our damage around our dots now, it would be even worse if we couldnt get them on a target.

MCH does have DoT, it's called your Turret and it allows your to DoT multiple targets while you attack any other mob of your choice...like a DoT.

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Originally Posted by Oxmodial

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To be fair, the lack of diversity in your rotation is not only attributed to the removal of the dot in this case, if you had kept the dot but the cast time of your spells from gauss barrel was the only thing removed. When your dot had 1 second left it would most likely be a dps loss no matter what if you didn't refresh it. And since MCH doesn't really have anything to stop you from applying the dot (other than maybe having an ammo reloaded) You would have had to apply that dot asap. So yeah blame the multiple factors of DoT removal AND gauss barrel cast times.

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Originally Posted by Furious

The OP argued that there is no value in the choice to remove dots, but there is; it is different to other classes, and not having dots means not having the downside of having some of your damage tied to a dot that may not get to run its full course. DoTs gain value in multitarget situations but they lose value in short burst situations or limited windows for doing damage. You can make the argument that you'd prefer the former than the latter, but neither is intrinsically more valuable without considering specific scenarios and numbers.

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What you need to understand is that DoT/multidotting perks are a bit of a blind spot for balancing. Are machinists doing more single target damage than bard to compensate for their weakness in AoE situations? Unlikely. What's going to be the case is that they will perform similarly in ST situations, and bards will just be better in AoE/multidot situations, for free.

This is why some people bemoan the loss of lead shot. It isn't so much about ease of use or what have you, but that multidotting power has historically tended to be a very strong perk to have that doesn't cost your job performance in other areas. In scenarios like A1S, A2S, or even short multidotting segments like A11S lapis phase, machinist will now underperform relative to bard - and mind what I said above, it's not like they're getting more ST damage to compensate, if your job is good at dotting it tends to be a 'free' perk, balance wise.

Lead shot was always a tiny part of our total DPS contribution (about 10% at most), so it's not like rolling that damage into the rest of the toolkit means MCH short term DPS has suddenly become amazing or something. And mind you, even DPS ramp-up in short term fights is a moot point now that heat is a thing. Bards have one of the fastest openers and burst sequences in general while the need to ramp to 100 means machinists are now one of the slowest.

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Originally Posted by Shunye

this is a nice change. going into a 24man and having your damage significantly reduced because there arent enough debuff slots as a bard was already a problem. but the way they balanced almost all of our damage around our dots now, it would be even worse if we couldnt get them on a target.

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This is incorrect, just because you can't see your DoT on the boss doesn't mean it isn't doing damage. The invisibility of DoTs in 24m raids is just a UI issue, but they're there doing damage just the same as usual.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

While both classes are ranged, both classes possess no dots to handle a multi target raid scenario. What is the purpose behind this choice? I can see it really adding no overall value to play, but in situations with multiple targets MCH will fall behind BRD in damage. Same situation with RDM vs BLM/SMN Fights similar to A1s A8S and A11S come to mind. :O Response please?

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A lack of dots is not going to make rdm fall behind blm/smn in multitarget fights. They might fall behind for other reasons, though blm aoe was nerfed so hard to say for sure on that one. I can't comment exactly on mch vs bard as I've still yet to unlock Machinist and don't really know much about it.