Right, well from what I've been reading off of the XIV Forums and Reddit, I have to say that there will be issues going forward if WHM is potentially denied in Raids and Savage.
A lot of it stems from overreaction from the Media Tour, as well as information from AN EARLIER BUILD being shown. I myself kinda had the same thoughts before, but when he said calm down, I understood what he meant. As far as I know, Yoshida has WHM in mind; it's just I want to believe he's attempting to mix up WHM's play style.
For instance HW BRD: Their case caused a lot of hysteria on their end when it came out because they thought WM was too limiting, just how Lilies is limiting to an extent if you're going for the CD Reduction. Technically, I think Yoshida was going for a direction with WHM to attempt to give it a decision instead of it being brain-dead heals(or some DPS) to an extent that it was in HW despite the tools it was given to alleviate some MP issues.
The White Mage Issue - #CalmDownFFXIV
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06-15-2017, 06:34 AMHyperiusUltimaThe White Mage Issue - #CalmDownFFXIV
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06-15-2017, 06:35 AMHyperiusUltima
AST and SCH both have to make decisions, both with cards and Aetherflow, so I want to see how this new WHM pans out before giving Yoshida hell like we did pre-E3; and if it turns out to be a mass exodus, THEY'LL FIX IT. Just like they did AST tuning(despite a slight overtune that they probably got feedback from Sophia and Zurvan and Creator), I can expect them to tune WHM appropriately. It takes time, so #LookForwardToIt.
P.S. If WHM is being kicked out just because of this, then it DOES count as Harassment to an extent, since I believe 'Differing Playstyle' needs a better definition despite people already doing it in 24-man and 8-man after 5-15 minutes. -
06-15-2017, 06:35 AMHyperiusUltima
Also, blame phone for not being able to edit.
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06-15-2017, 06:53 AMRisvertasashi
...there is a consolidated thread for this. That said. My concern is I don't want to go through a patch of being locked out of PFs any time I want to play WHM. As another note...
GMs leave it intentionally vague because they're deathly afraid that if they nail down vote kick criteria, someone will find a way to troll or grief while claiming they can't be kicked. I can repost LGM Enkrateia's full commentary/reasoning here if you like. I don't like it either but years later they're still standing by it.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
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06-15-2017, 06:57 AMFyce
The only people who should calm themselves are the ones pushing that "new thread" button when it's not needed.
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06-15-2017, 08:07 AMHyperiusUltimaWell, I can see why but I figured they'd be lost somewhere in the sea of posts that people are still going on about just reiterating themselves about "Lilies" and not even thinking about the playstyle aspect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
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06-15-2017, 08:27 AMdark494That's my biggest issues with these forums. Just WHY.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
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06-15-2017, 02:31 PMNanaWilohYoshi has a past so far ridden with screwing up a class and fixing it later. People are raising hell with him cause they fear history is repeating itself, he does not deserve anymore slack then what he has gotten.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
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06-15-2017, 03:00 PMSuzakuCMXI fixed it for youQuote:
Originally Posted by NanaWiloh
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06-15-2017, 03:08 PMNanaWiloh"Once you reach that level 70 cap, and you reach Savage Omega, there may be [new] discoveries that you make at that point. So we hope that the players do try it out, and provide feedback once you’ve experienced it first hand"Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
And we will all be waiting until after Omega savage to see fixes if things are not right. -
06-15-2017, 03:16 PMSuzakuCMXHeavenwards Early Access and Astrologian Release: June 19th 2016Quote:
Originally Posted by NanaWiloh
Alexander: Gordias Savage Release with first Astrologian Balance Patch: July 21 2016
So you're not ok with waiting 1 month? You're impatient. -
06-15-2017, 03:21 PMlulunami
To be fair, healers are the least important jobs in raid. There are non-healers complaining about White Mage for some reason even though they do not play it. Gear matters a lot more for DPS and tanks. Unless stronger heals are necessary, healers are not that important in the grand scheme of things. White Mage can do its primary role well even with random proc traits. White Mage will be fine.
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06-15-2017, 03:21 PMMaltothoris
Remember it 2 months after that first patch before AST could get on its feet and even then that stigma stood around for more longer until patch 3.4 Am I saying that is going to be the case, no. But it does have an odd sense of deja vu
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06-15-2017, 03:24 PMNanaWilohIts not the speed at which they fix things that is my issue. Its that players see the issue without even playing but have to play the game first and suffer with the issue for the developers too listen.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
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06-15-2017, 03:25 PMSuzakuCMXReally? So what's the issue? Cuz with AST it was that they had lower MP sustain than WHM or SCH and less potencies so they literally could not clear content on the same level. WHM doesn't have either of those issues right now so should be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by NanaWiloh
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06-15-2017, 03:51 PMNanaWilohMy only issue with the class itself is the level of RNG on the lilly mechanic. Thanks to Yoshi though we can just cure 2 to proc lily's and call it day. If SB is anyting like ARR and Heavensward wont be long before cure 2 becomes nothing a but proc button in most dungeons. I am honestly changing over to AST as I have been playing WHM since I started and want something different.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
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06-15-2017, 04:02 PMAyer2015The current 'vote kick' categories cover what I consider legitimate reasons.... A stronger stance on curbing bad behaviour would be welcome imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
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06-15-2017, 04:32 PMRisvertasashiWell, good news. You can kick someone for virtually any reason (except, specifically, to grief them... but even if you want to grief someone with vote kick, the broad leeway GMs have given you make it about impossible to prove unless you say as much). So any particular behavior you don't like... go ahead and initiate the vote dismissal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayer2015
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06-15-2017, 04:36 PMRai_TakaraIt's safe to say WHM will never be a "burden" to a group like AST was in 3.0 to make people omit it from PFs. Anyone that does it now isn't very informed and not worth your time. WHM is perfectly viable even with it's bad lily system and under-tuned confession mechanic. AST in 3.0 was serviceable only by the best of the best and even then, required a bit of work with the group while WHM did not. Ever since 3.07 that was fixed mostly but it didn't fit the dps meta at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
WHM will be fine. But obviously, keep the constructive feedback coming as it will give the team ideas on how to approach tuning the job further. -
06-15-2017, 05:40 PMNanaWilohOnly bad part about the lily system is the part I hate the RNG!! Random chance and healing are a bad mix tuning can help ease the randomness but it will still be there too pester you at the wrong time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rai_Takara
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06-15-2017, 06:00 PMSuzakuCMXAgreed, but the tooltips we've seen from E3 (50%/100%) are not THAT much RNG anymore. Confession RNG (20%) is much worse. It's still far from "WHM dead and useless" though that most of the forum seems to be spouting.Quote:
Originally Posted by NanaWiloh
Balancewise I think WHM will be fine on release. Funwise is a different story. -
06-15-2017, 06:31 PMBourne_EndeavorPaladin would really like a word with about that. It waited two years to finally get properly balanced despite the devs insisting it wouldn't be a magic tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
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06-15-2017, 06:44 PMSuzakuCMXWas Paladin ever so unbalanced that it couldn't clear progression content? No. It just lacked damage compared to WAR/DRK and that's why people don't bring it along but it can clear progression content 100% fine on the same patch and in fact, did clear it pretty quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
EDIT: Actually I made a mistake and no PLD cleared it on patch 3.4 >.> So I guess PLD may be worse off than I thought but that might also be because nobody bothered playing PLD into Savage. -
06-15-2017, 06:53 PMSebazy
Just to add a correction here, Paladin was indeed at a significant disadvantage in A12S during early progression. DRK's CDs allowed it to tank the fight near enough from start to finish with the standard issue Warrior opener for agro. By contrast, PLDs were out of CDs for inceptions making a tank switch near enough mandatory at that point. Without that switch the PLD would die to the first tank buster in that phase or the melee hit that followed it.
One the first clears were out of the way and people started refining strats (and thus figuring out what they could just holmgang into insignificance) then PLDs came back into play and were less of a hinderance. Even much later on with echo though, it was always a rough time when I'd help an A12S with a PLD that insisted on tanking the encounter start to finish =( -
06-15-2017, 08:29 PMTivaThe only time I can think of where a class was balance one patch after it was clearly broken is warrior going from 2.0 to 2.1.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
What are your other examples of this happening?
I see some people say this, and I feel like my perception of the issue may be off.
In my mind, Smn was broken throughout all of final coil (2.4) and I think it got a mp adjustment before 3.0 but I can't find the notes on it so I may be wrong. But it was left out of final coil prog pretty much. ETA Final coil came out 10/28/2014 (or close to that) and smn ruin and ruin 2 mp cost was decreased 24 Feb 2015. 4 months later. So that could be an example as well, but I cant remember clearly if that totally fixed the issue or not.
Jump and drg's magic defense was a problem all the way from launch to 2.45. They tried to "fix" jump before that but kept failing (jump animation still too long). Similar to the way they attempted to fix astro and kept missing the mark on that as well. I think we all remember how long it took for ast to be balanced... and then SE actually did something worse and overturned it. Many belive they should have left it and things would have evened out, but they added the balance buff and ruined it. Monk and paladin I'm not really gonna get into. Bottom line is I don't feel this was "balanced the next patch".
And honestly my past mmo experience may be different from yours... but I completely disagree that balancing happens often in this game like you imply. What SE tends to do is wait till a big patch, then push big changes. And they usually only change the class that is the problem. They don't "balance". They "buff" and hope that leads to balance. In other mmos I've personally played, I see small adjustments made all the time. They are constantly bringing small numbers up and down. Not just for the problem class, but for other classes too. And if something is obviously a problem, I've seen hotfixes literally the next day after patch release. I've never seen SE do this. They always seem to paint with a large brush. They don't make fine strokes to tweak things. Example- monk was kind of hard to address, because the biggest problem was it's utility. It's damage was very good. But other classes just brought decent damage and amazing utility. So what they could have done is made small adjustments to drk's threat (to make them less reliant on the utility nin brings) and made small nerfs to the dps buffs nin and drg bring (so the raid dps increase between bringing a monk vs brining these other classes wasn't so big). But since SE has this philosophy that they won't nerf classes... these options are not available to them. Additionally, they could have made Noct more viable, by making small nerfs to the fairy free healing. To bring sch down a bit. That would have made noct better comparatively. But they are stuck on this "players get mad at us when we nerf their class! ahhh!" crap to actually do any of this. It's like trying to play chess with only half the pieces. -
06-15-2017, 08:47 PMTintthe devs want to see how we play their classes, see what discoveries we make they aren't aware of and see what we actually do in the content before they want to make adjustments.Quote:
Originally Posted by NanaWiloh
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06-16-2017, 06:22 AMRai_TakaraThe RNG is controllable, the problem is the reward for Lillies is kind of bad. Cool down reduction is either useless or broken, generally speaking. On top of that, to generate lillies, you have to use the most inefficient spells you have, aka Cure 1 and 2. If say lillies could be procced by regens and other ogcds, then they would see a lot more use. Same with confession stacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by NanaWiloh
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06-16-2017, 12:11 PMAtreidesYou say balanced when PLD actually got buffed through the roof in stormblood. While the other tanks got stomped. They should've done one of those options but the balancing team decided to do both... It's like there are 2 seperate teams working on the changes and make different decisions....Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
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06-16-2017, 02:01 PMAlphaSonicI only need to read patch notes to see that WHM has 3 less abilities than AST.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tint
First discovery done. -
06-16-2017, 02:32 PMLemuriaOverall, the Lily system is awful. If the 'best' it can do is give us a 20% cooldown on existing skills or give us a poor replacement for Stoneskin, then it's as good as non-existent as far as I'm concerned. You can't choose when to use it, and it won't add anything new or interesting, it's just there.Quote:
Originally Posted by NanaWiloh
What did we lose in exchange for this terrible system? Stoneskin / Esuna / Shroud of Saints / Divine Seal / Protect / Cleric Stance. What did Astrologian and Scholar lose? Err... their own Esuna clones and Eye for an Eye? That's about it really. We also lost our 0-MP proc from Cure, MP reduction from Medica, damage from Fluid Aura. It's all take so far, with very little given in return.
The way I see it, Square-Enix has absolutely no idea what to do with white mage so they're basically turning it into the new 'base class' for every other healer to leech from. -
06-16-2017, 03:16 PMRoseOfTheRaven
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06-17-2017, 08:17 AMSebazyI don't think they have anyone in the job design team that has a good understanding of end game healing nor has experience of how other games have approached the problem of offering diverse yet balanced healer classes. All 3 healer jobs are flawed still, SCH has had far too much of it's core gameplay hacked out and just looks like a hollow sad mess in general gameplay now. WHM is close but isn't quite there with a mere CD reduction being far more interesting than it's supposed new key mechanic. AST is just a horrible combination of a mistake and missed opportunities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
Blizzard approached this issue by hiring a number of experienced theory crafters and raid leaders out of the Everquest community as they were in the stages of fleshing WoW out. Needless to say, it worked wonders, SE really should consider doing the same. -
06-17-2017, 08:31 AMGhishlainRandom nitpick - we didn't lose this trait.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria