Combos - Theory vs. Reality

Although this is quite speculative given the patch has yet to arrive, however, I would like to hear your thoughts on combos.

In theory, combos seem like a great idea. More user input, debuffs, strategy, etc. However, in reality, I could see combos making a mess of an already shaky battle system. For one, I picture seeing parties (particularly 8-person) constant running around mobs in a nauseating mosh pit. Second, hate already bounces around without combos, I can't imagine how it will work with combos. For example, if one person pulls hate it could screw up combos for everyone else. Finally, the way mobs are now, very few monsters last long enough to even get off 1 or 2 skills for. In that regard, combos seem to have limited utility (i.e., solo, NMs).

Am I wrong? What are your thoughts/concerns?

I think the combos heavily hinge on the TP factor.

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Not only will a successful combo grant you the bonus indicated; TP cost will also be waived for the weaponskill used to execute it. For a combo to be valid, however, the weaponskill in question must be used with the class or job to which it belongs.

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Has been interpreted as your opening weapon skill costs TP. Your combo weapon skill does not cost any TP and can be used immediately. But I don't see this being the case. Otherwise, a 1500 TP move chains into a powerful two to three hit combo. At 3000 TP, one could execute two combos in quick succession, which would certainly make battles more fast paced in many senses.

Others have interpreted as, your opening weapon skill costs TP. You need to rebuild TP to use the combo weapon skill. After execution, you retain the TP.

And we're wondering about the time limit between combos, especially now that there's reduced TP generation from auto-attacks and overall higher TP costs. I'm thinking there will be an indefinite amount of time between weapon skills as long as the mob is alive ~ engaged.

My thoughts on the combos are that some folks are gonna try them out, see that some of the effects aren't quite worth it, and sometimes go for that "finisher" move first to end the battle instead of everyone trying to go for their individual combos.

I think combos may have been intended more for solo.

In any case, I'm not too worried about hate distribution, because I'm sure they kept that in mind.

What I am concerned about is that this further restricts which skills people are going to use, and pigeonholes classes more and more towards a certain playstyle. Of course... it remains to be seen whether that is true. But when you can use a combo to do 3 weaponskills for the cost of one, i can't see much reason to use weaponskills from another class, unless you equip the entire chain, which likely wouldn't be worth the action cost.

If you are bouncing hate around that much, get a new tank, cause yours sucks.

You can do combo's without moving around just wont get the bonus effect, but getting free ws is a + anytime.

@Llewelyn: There's no action cost anymore and out-of-class abilities don't get combo bonuses.

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Originally Posted by Gidonoidon_Sur

Although this is quite speculative given the patch has yet to arrive, however, I would like to hear your thoughts on combos.

In theory, combos seem like a great idea. More user input, debuffs, strategy, etc. However, in reality, I could see combos making a mess of an already shaky battle system. For one, I picture seeing parties (particularly 8-person) constant running around mobs in a nauseating mosh pit. Second, hate already bounces around without combos, I can't imagine how it will work with combos. For example, if one person pulls hate it could screw up combos for everyone else. Finally, the way mobs are now, very few monsters last long enough to even get off 1 or 2 skills for. In that regard, combos seem to have limited utility (i.e., solo, NMs).

Am I wrong? What are your thoughts/concerns?

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I think Im fine with combos really only being for solo play and NMs if im in a group killing normal mobs I dont want it to last long enough to use combos. Then again its also good practice for people to learn hate management, there is a hate meter people really dont have any excuse anymore.

combos will be most useful in two cases: soloing, and endgame. both of those situations are when mobs last longer. Partying, yeah, there might not be enough time to experiment with combos, which is a bummer, sometimes I hate that everything has to be learned at 50 now, there's no time to learn it while leveling.

all you need to know is that combo's = free dmg, even if you don't move to the right spot to use the ws.

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Originally Posted by Tango

If you are bouncing hate around that much, get a new tank, cause yours sucks.

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It looks like they fixed the gladiator issues, with aoe enmity skills and such. So I'm sure tanks could possibly be reliable now.

I think it's a little too early to start talking about theory vs reality. Since the skills are not in the game yet, this thread is all theory.

not that I call running around to much. I make a list of PUG combo after read the patch, the only thing I have to do is :

front -> side
or
rear->side

I dont call this to much running neither confuse or a huge mess in the pt

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

I think it's a little too early to start talking about theory vs reality. Since the skills are not in the game yet, this thread is all theory.

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Of course we'll have to see these things in action... With consideration of server lagg, skill animations and such. Hopefully SE put a great effort into reducing these things, so we can actually use the combo system.

I think the combos will mostly be relevant when it comes to soloing (not so much the ones that are position related) and for bosses, since they can actually last long enough in a party environment to not explode. Most parties I feel are still going to kind of run like burn parties and people will just be spamming abilities.

I don't think the time between abilities for a combo will persist indefinitely. I think it was even pointed out in a translated post (don't have the source handy, sorry) that it would be something like 10 seconds before the next ability becomes invalid.

I also don't believe battles will be much more fast paced than before since it was mentioned in the patch notes that TP gain will be slowed down to accommodate for TP not being expended from the combo moves.

Combos will come into play for proper strategy on boss/nm battles, I recall in certain mmo's you had to fight a dragon from the side, a certain boss from the rear for bonuses on your attacks and such.... Of course the tank always being at the helm for the frontal bonuses.

If they work like they do in legend of dragoon I'll love them.

Great points. Something else to consider. It seems we are in somewhat agreement that combos are intended for solo/NM battles, not so much EXP parties. However, as some of you have pointed out, TP gain will also be reduced. This suggests that EXP parties will be slowed down as a result of the introduction of combos, although, combos aren't intended/best suited for EXP party-play.

I think they might be nice for XP'ing, at least 2-step combos. Moving around is easy enough and you're getting free Weaponskills. Of course when the party gets large enough that's no longer the case.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

@Llewelyn: There's no action cost anymore and out-of-class abilities don't get combo bonuses.

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I meant the # of actions you can equip at a given level. I phrased that poorly. And if you can't get combo bonuses on out-of-class... then seriously... there's next to no reason to equip stuff from another class, with the exception of support abilities.

How much do you want to bet that the first thing everyone equips will be cure/second wind/protect and so on? Until you get to a relatively high level, there's now a much more "optimal" build (at least for solo) than ever before.

Obviously those skills were great before and that hasn't changed. But we have less flexibility now and so things that you might have used before instead of your class abilities are suddenly not worth it at all.

Or at least... that's my impression. Fingers crossed - maybe I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

I think it's a little too early to start talking about theory vs reality. Since the skills are not in the game yet, this thread is all theory.

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I actually kind of laughed when I saw this thread's title. It's more like...Combos - Theory vs. Theory.

Most of the success on burn parties comes from the marauders ability to both tank, gain massive amounts of hate, and dispatch enemies quickly with multi-hit weapon skills.

Most characters had their multi hit stuff nerfed or is midway in a combo for its tp use to be mitigated.

Party play has significantly changed with each update I don't think this one is going to be any different. I hope they adjust the linking rules cause those are way too flakey at the moment and i can see them getting really frustrating and dictating the success of a party. Maybe they'll leave them and stop most players from downing wolves and move on to safer options till they're comfortable with their party, or maybe the conj's new healing options and gld tanking options will make it viable, time will tell.

Sorry got off topic, my point being the effectiveness on combo's is also going to be impacted by everyones more defined roles which hopefully are more balanced now.

as much we know, now mob link with the same species. no info on range thou

I see many people are confused by this

You do not have to move around to combo. At all.

Weaponskills now may have two bonuses. One is for positioning, the second is for combos. They are independent from each other. So, while it's true that combo + position bonus > just the combo, it still doesn't mean you have to move around to combo.

Therefore, I don't see how they couldn't be useful for EXP parties and the like. Free TP + Extra damage is always useful, even if the monster dies too quickly to bother moving a lot.

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

I see many people are confused by this

You do not have to move around to combo. At all.

Weaponskills now may have two bonuses. One is for positioning, the second is for combos. They are independent from each other. So, while it's true that combo + position bonus > just the combo, it still doesn't mean you have to move around to combo.

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Wrong. You HAVE to move around to combo to set off certain combos. Just learned this the hard way.

This makes Gladiator's Riot Blade --> Rage of Halone combo pointless since as a tank, you will almost always have mobs looking at you from the front. The Combo Starter requirement for Riot Blade is to hit them from the back.

It's somewhat useful for solo play since you can position yourself for a back hit before you engage the next enemy, but this requires you to save tp from your previous fight to do so.

I'm hoping they look into this and remove the position hit requirements for combos to start/continue.

I have m doubts about the combo requiring positioning or not...

The Patch notes say it's not required to get behind the enemy or whatever, but I (as a PGL) can't pull off Pummel>Concussive Blow>Simian Thrust without moving around... maybe there's another element at play that won't let me do that... but my guess is positioning DOES affect combos.

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Originally Posted by Vemoes

I have m doubts about the combo requiring positioning or not...

The Patch notes say it's not required to get behind the enemy or whatever, but I (as a PGL) can't pull off Pummel>Concussive Blow>Simian Thrust without moving around... maybe there's another element at play that won't let me do that... but my guess is positioning DOES affect combos.

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yeah you have to meet alll the requirements to actually pull of a combo, not just the extra effects, even for the begining ones, i do not know if this is an error or how its meant to be, but as of right now you have to meet all conditions to get a combo.

havent tried it in a party, but i will say, the classes that dont have positional requirements have an advantage even if it doesnt seem like it. because they will always be able to get their combos off, while other classes will miss due to mob movements, and lag to input/enemy position. I noticed for my lnc it was super easy to pull off a doomspike combo solo, whereas for pug i needed to move for the 3 hit combos. essentially making it more risky/more likely to fail.

However for monsters of about 4 or 5 levels higher, they will die in about two combos, so what i see happening, is people soloing monsters in groups a lot, especially with less aoe potential in the game. Links will happen, and i dont know if glad can hold hate on a lot of targets at once, so the natural solution is a couple melee break off and solo certain mobs then team up on whats left.

That said i think the link system shoudl expand to not just one species, but to certain enemy types that are symbiotic, this way you can have an interesting link battle with enemies that interact differently. Some warrior type mobs that hang out with casters or ranged types (other than beastmen who already have this mechanic)