when will another class get piercing debuff

monk has their own buff, every slash dps class has their own buff, a tank class has slash buff etc.

but only dragoon has piercing debuff.

players in this community challenged me to play bard and i did not like it just like i told them i would not but the rarity of having a dragoon in party made bard a particularly unenjoyable class to play as you are missing like 20% of your dps if you do not have one

i think either pld or drk (maybe mnk) should get piercing debuff.

I don't think a Piercing Debuff is much of a concern for BRD and MCH when they have their free-roaming mobility back due to the removal of cast times.

Also, BRD and MCH are not roles that you should use if you want raw damage output, piercing or no piercing debuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

I don't think a Piercing Debuff is much of a concern for BRD and MCH when they have their free-roaming mobility back due to the removal of cast times.

Also, BRD and MCH are not roles that you should use if you want raw damage output, piercing or no piercing debuff.

---

That doesn't matter, because you still want a BRD or MCH for TP/Mana regen purposes, and the fact remains that if a DRG isn't present then that BRD/MCH you need anyway will be doing significantly less damage.

This is actually a serious party synergy issue, and it's surprising that it STILL hasn't been addressed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

That doesn't matter, because you still want a BRD or MCH for TP/Mana regen purposes, and the fact remains that if a DRG isn't present then that BRD/MCH you need anyway will be doing significantly less damage.

This is actually a serious party synergy issue, and it's surprising that it STILL hasn't been addressed.

---

We're talking about one specific synergy that exists. If a Pld or a Drk don't get a Ninja. Does this mean Smn, Blm, Mch, Mnk, Sam (does Sam? idk), Rdm (does Rdm? jesus the possibilities are endless!) should get a Slashing resistance debuff? Or maybe those tanks should get their own instead/as well?

We can go around in circles with this, with a lot of other types of synergies that exist. But the only type of resistance down I have a problem with is Monks since no one else benefits from Dragon kick. At least some other classes benefit from Dragoons piercing. currently there's no point in even saying it's a blunt resistance down debuff, it might as well be a "10% Fistycuff only buff ". I like how that rhymed...
Not everyone needs to apply it to help everyone else out. If that's how we built classes, so every class synergizes with every class, then that buff entirely loses it's meaning and might as well become a passive 10% dmg increase trait. Not only that, you take away individuality from classes, Something this game really needs right now. I like that uniqueness.
I mean we do have buffs like those, They're called Trick Attack, Battle Litany, ect ect. Huge spike dmg increases that boost everyone for a short period of time.

But if we don't land a Ninja in our group, does it mean everyone else should be able to Trick Attack to make up for it? Currently Foe's requiem buffs Magic damage, so when a bard shows up, i'm sure blm's and smn's get a grin larger than the Grinch on Christmas day. But does that mean every other class needs Foe's Requiem or at least something similar? Because that's a static 10% Dmg loss for them.

I see what you're asking for but it's more rational to ask for another class to synergize with monks blunt resistance down, even if that said class doesn't get the ability to put up a blunt debuff themselves. I'd actually prefer it that way while offering other forms of party utility so when paired up with monk they become a power couple at the high-school prom. Oddly enough, that's what Dragoon and Bard have in spades.

Think of it as a type of utility that Dragoon offers, because it is. it makes those ranged support classes hit harder, and in turn they offer you limitless TP, and MP for your mages. Myself, I'd say that's pretty badass.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaeoni

We're talking about one specific synergy that exists. If a Pld or a Drk don't get a Ninja. Does this mean Smn, Blm, Mch, Mnk, Sam (does Sam? idk), Rdm (does Rdm? jesus the possibilities are endless!) should get a Slashing resistance debuff? Or maybe those tanks should get their own instead/as well?

We can go around in circles with this, with a lot of other types of synergies that exist. But the only type of resistance down I have a problem with is Monks since no one else benefits from Dragon kick. At least some other classes benefit from Dragoons piercing. currently there's no point in even saying it's a blunt resistance down debuff, it might as well be a "10% Fistycuff only buff ". I like how that rhymed...
Not everyone needs to apply it to help everyone else out. If that's how we built classes, so every class synergizes with every class, then that buff entirely loses it's meaning and might as well become a passive 10% dmg increase trait. Not only that, you take away individuality from classes, Something this game really needs right now. I like that uniqueness.
I mean we do have buffs like those, They're called Trick Attack, Battle Litany, ect ect. Huge spike dmg increases that boost everyone for a short period of time.

But if we don't land a Ninja in our group, does it mean everyone else should be able to Trick Attack to make up for it? Currently Foe's requiem buffs Magic damage, so when a bard shows up, i'm sure blm's and smn's get a grin larger than the Grinch on Christmas day. But does that mean every other class needs Foe's Requiem or at least something similar? Because that's a static 10% Dmg loss for them.

I see what you're asking for but it's more rational to ask for another class to synergize with monks blunt resistance down, even if that said class doesn't get the ability to put up a blunt debuff themselves. I'd actually prefer it that way while offering other forms of party utility so when paired up with monk they become a power couple at the high-school prom. Oddly enough, that's what Dragoon and Bard have in spades.

Think of it as a type of utility that Dragoon offers, because it is. it makes those ranged support classes hit harder, and in turn they offer you limitless TP, and MP for your mages. Myself, I'd say that's pretty badass.

---

This isn't an issue of "identity". That's not the point that's being discussed here. The whole problem with piercing resistance is that only one job can apply it, while 2 other jobs benefit from it. The problem is that said jobs are MCH and BRD, both of which are almost mandatory for raid progression (due to their MP regen). And any raid leader with half a brain will be able to see that DRG needs to be there in order to maximize DPS. This leads to a lack of variety in terms of party composition, because most groups will want a BRD/MCH + DRG combo.

You're grasping at straws by saying that "if we don't land a Ninja in our group, does it mean everyone else should be able to Trick Attack to make up for it?". It's not about making the jobs all the same, but why do we have such liberty when it comes down to slashing resistance if there are only 4 jobs that use it? I mean out of the 4 jobs that deal slashing damage 3 of them can apply a slashing debuff. But out of the 3 classes that deal piercing damage only one applies a debuff. Even before SAM skills were revealed we had 3 jobs that dealt slashing damage and 2 that applied the debuff. Why can't they give RDM some sort of piercing debuff with his rapier? Or anyone else for that matter.

I've been waiting to play SAM for so long in this game, but it seems I won't be able to raid with it. I mained DRG all of Heavensward, and knowing that my current job will be mandatory for raids due to it's unique synergy pisses me off. Because it will make it even harder to play what I actually want to play. It'll make looking for a group even more of a hassle, because 2 out of the 4 DPS slots will be used by DRG + BRD/MCH, and since SAM isn't getting virtually any utility whatsoever (except for a redundant slashing debuff *yay*, I'll just end up becoming a hindrance to my group, so I'm just better off staying as DRG.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

I don't think a Piercing Debuff is much of a concern for BRD and MCH

---

playing bard and missing 20% of your damage because you're always paired with ranged dps in their higher priority queues is ridiculous when you look at how many slash classes have buff and monk basically has their own personal buff.

it is literally one of the most unappealing things about playing bard

Quote:

---

We're talking about one specific synergy that exists.

---

thats a whole lot of talkin to say a whole lot of nothin

its simple

if you have a bard, and you will have a bard, you have to have a dragoon in your party. if you don't, you're throwing like 4-7%~ of your raid's dedicated damage out the window. That's for just 1 bard or machinist. if you don't have trick attack, its whatever. it's a lil ass 10s vuln debuff every 60s. piercing debuff is just as powerful and something that should have >90% uptime. not really comparable.

Where'd you get 20% from? Multiplicative scaling?

Anyways, they've nerfed piercing from 10% to 5% to combat the possibility of ranged physical dps stacking again.

It'll still be a problem but it'll be less of a problem now.

i usually do about 1600 dps but reach around 1900 with it

Quote:

---

Anyways, they've nerfed piercing from 10% to 5% to combat the possibility of ranged physical dps stacking again.

---

they have or are going to? because it doesn't feel like 5%

Going into 4.0, it's gonna be brought down to 5% from it's current value. It's most likely multiplicative scaling causing that 300 DPS discrepancy. Buff stacking pretty much gives you extra damage since its ((Gauss Barrel * Raging Strikes) * piercing debuff) instead of ((Gauss Barrel + Raging strikes) + piercing debuff).

Multiplicative scaling of 10% will always be a 10% increase, no matter what other buffs you have. It's just simply theoretically impossible to go from 1600 to 1900 with piercing debuff alone. And if I'm not totally off-base, it's closer to a 8% damage increase because of your dots not benefitting from it.

And as a random bonus nitpick, 10% reduction in resistances translates to ~11% increase in damage: 1/0.9=1.111.

Well it is not like dragoons only put on piercing buff. They also give crit too and the shorter a fight is, the higher your dps will be. either way, the math is not completely irrelevant to the topic of discussion but it is not the focus.

It's just my opinion that the piercing debuff accounts for way too much of bard DPS. I do not exactly agreee with dropping it to 5% but they will probably be compensated for it.

The same exact argument has been made by casters where they feel that a BRD is required in their group to do the best DPS because Foe req is too strong, also that groups with ninjas needed a warrior to do max dps because not having to use dancing edge is a huge increase. The game has synergies and always has. Unless they wanna homogenize everything and take away unique buffs, we'll always have this problem as long as their are more jobs than spots. Even right now, some will argue that RDM is required because they have possibly the same potential output as the other casters but bring a physical dmg dps buff and now SMNs are the only ones that bring old Foe Req

as far as ninja are concerned QQ more imo you can actually put buff up. most of them do it anyway even when i play warrior.

but i certainly sympathize with dps concerned about it as it feels lame not to have those powerful practically passive buffs available to you

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

That doesn't matter, because you still want a BRD or MCH for TP/Mana regen purposes, and the fact remains that if a DRG isn't present then that BRD/MCH you need anyway will be doing significantly less damage.

---

That's not going to be super emphasized anymore with Goad and Mana Transfer now being in the cross roles.

Question should be: When is another class going to make use of blunt resistance decreases?

As absurd as this is going to sound, I was really hoping SAM was going to get piercing debuff. I understand why slashing, however we have already 2 jobs that apply slashing but a katana is a weapon that slashes and pierces. :<

I'm honestly surprised SE hasn't already homogenized all Physical damage into a single debuff already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

I'm honestly surprised SE hasn't already homogenized all Physical damage into a single debuff already.

---

I 100% agree with this. This would solve tons of issues for party composition and balance. To be honest, I was expecting this to happen in 4.0.

can they add magic damage debuff too? :(
and now my friends, its called the current foe req :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Komaru_Tatoro

can they add magic damage debuff too? :(
and now my friends, its called the current foe req :)

---

Summoners already have that on garuda, but it is only worth if you play with another caster.

I think MCH should've been blunt damage and to be honest I expected it to be.

Honestly, it's a bit disheartening that we got the exact same optimal raid comp as 3.0. It shows how much they don't have a grasp on just how strong utility is.

I can't believe they let DRG continue to monopolize the piercing debuff. I can't believe Monk STILL doesn't have any synergy with it's blunt resistance down.

I wish MCH and BRD could apply piercing rather than needing a DRG in the group. Sure MCH/BRD don't NEED it per se but they get gibbed on 5% damage just because of the absence of piercing debuff and it's out of their control.

The perfect way to solve this would be through Role Actions.

No Dragoon in the comp? Let BRD/MCH have a Role Action which applies piercing resist down.

DRGs would still be desirable to save action slots, and for the Battle Litany buff. But they wouldn't be anywhere near as important as they currently are, potentially opening the slot to other classes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AxelDH

The perfect way to solve this would be through Role Actions.

No Dragoon in the comp? Let BRD/MCH have a Role Action which applies piercing resist down.

DRGs would still be desirable to save action slots, and for the Battle Litany buff. But they wouldn't be anywhere near as important as they currently are, potentially opening the slot to other classes.

---

The perfect way to fix this is get rid of them, and put the permanent vulnerabilities on the tanks.

SE could move NIN from slashing to piercing. Would be
Slashing 2/4
Piercing 2/4
Blunt 1/1 (Monks feel so loneley; when will a Job with a Hammer appear? Q_Q)
then.

Giving it either MCH or BRD, would make 1 Job superirior to the other (just a bit. But you can bet the other Job would whine about not getting it)
I guess we have to deal with it until new Jobs arrive into the game.

SAM could get both piercing and blunt resistances down in their remaining combo finishers, and give them a very slight support that would make them somewhat less undesirable when compared to the other three melees.