I know there are alot of these threads, but this isn't about numbers, or 'viable' vs. 'meta', this is about the true identity of WHM and how the changes in 4.0 (as we currently know it) activity work against that identity.
To me, more than the ‘pure healer’, WHM has always been the ‘simple healer’, with straight forward abilities and simple buffs. It is this identity of being simple, powerful, and fun to play, that first attracted me to WHM in 2.X, and kept me attracted to WHM in 3.X. 4.0 destroys this identity...
With the Lilies mechanic, not only are certain WHM abilities now tied to RNG, but certain abilities are now also mutually exclusive; if you use one, you lose bonuses to others, if not getting locked out entirely, and are reliant on RNG to get them back. This is the antithesis of simple, and simply not fun.
The Confession mechanic is arguably worse, as far from giving you a nice bonus, it is not only RNG based, but also a gate on even being able to make proper use of certain abilities. Again, this is the antithesis of simple, and simply not fun.
And perhaps the worst part; neither of the other healers have any such limitations on their core kit:
Like the WHM of 2.X and 3.X, (once in a stance) AST is free to deploy their full healing kit at any time, and nothing has changed in this regard for 4.0. Also, with the changes to Cleric Stance, it makes Gravity far easier to use than Holy, and frees up mental space to pay more attention to the RNG based card mechanics.
SCH is slightly more complex, with a stack mechanic that does make some of their abilities mutually exclusive. However, as there is no RNG involved, and all these abilities have a predictable and relatively short cooldown, as long as the SCH plans ahead (which ties very well into their lore) this is far from a detriment, and indeed makes the SCH very versatile.
Lastly, both AST and SCH received good, identity re-enforcing changes in 4.0, all while keeping (indeed, even expanded upon) their vastly superior utility. Meanwhile, WHM not only had its identity further stripped by putting a number of previously unique WHM abilities into the cross-role system, if not removed entirely, it gained absolutely nothing it needed in return (quite the opposite in fact).
So, you can ignore this if you like, but those are my reasons (far more so than not being 'meta') for quitting WHM come 4.0, and nothing short of restoring WHM as the ‘simple healer’, and giving it the improvements it so desperately needs (i.e. useful group utility), is likely to be anywhere near enough to change my mind.
PS. Unless crowd control is making a major comeback in 4.0, why the hell does WHM still have Repose?
Why I'll be quitting WHM; the once simple healer
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06-03-2017, 12:02 PMAcidbloodWhy I'll be quitting WHM; the once simple healer
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06-03-2017, 02:41 PMFeidam
Just going to respond to your ps. I really hope they have made the mobs hit hard enough that we have to stop the ridiculous mega pulls and have to worry with heals firing off and tanks not getting low. It will also allow for the CC spells to come into play some. Otherwise I agree why keep them unless it is for ease of soloingfor some. I like the ability to throw dps and heal but most of the times unless you get a new tank or bad tank healing seems to be an afterthought.
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06-03-2017, 02:45 PMCyrocco
If it helps any, should these changes go through, I'll likely be suspending my serious play of AST. I feel you when it comes to the ridiculous overhealing every healer can put out right now, and with the buffs it feels like healing's going to be so easy it won't be fun anymore.
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06-03-2017, 04:47 PMAdventica6
Whm has never been interesting in this game, how fun is spamming medicas ? it's boring as hell, why pay a sub to be bored ? just give me the money instead.
Glad you're quitting whm, pick a fun job this time. -
06-03-2017, 05:11 PMCyroccoDon't flat out insult peoples jobs. People should be able to have fun no matter the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventica6
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06-03-2017, 06:13 PMCyrilLucifer
WHM still has Repose because it's amazing in PvP.
That being said, with PvE an PvP abilities now separated, I'm not quite sure. -
06-03-2017, 06:21 PMDuskTS
WHM still has repose because you need to sleep the add in Brayflox second boss.
I wish I was 100% certain that wasn't the thought process behind it. -
06-03-2017, 06:43 PMAcidbloodA bit off topic, but... Different strokes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventica6
No one if forcing you to play WHM (or PLD, or BLM, …), and personally I get far more satisfaction out of the dynamism of simple jobs, where all you have is a set of well-made tools and it’s up to you how to best deploy them in the current situation. Which is why I’m not really a fan of jobs like MCH, DRG or even WAR, which have a lot of predefined combos and ‘optimal rotations’, but I understand why some people are. -
06-03-2017, 06:51 PMAcidbloodYeah, I'm a bit worried about that as well, especially with the Cleric Stance change... I figure learning AST and / or SCH (and SAM, RDM, the new BRD, and a few other jobs) will keep be entertained for a while though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrocco
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06-03-2017, 06:56 PMEZ5902If major changes don't come to WHM, i shall be quiting the job too, but ill still try it before making this decision, SE really need to deal with this, there are barely enough healers in the game as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acidblood
You're probably one of those healers that stand there and hit cure 2 when a tank loses 1 hp though, your comment is invalid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventica6
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06-03-2017, 09:52 PMRopeDrinkNice comment. What's next, an argument over who has a better favourite colour?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventica6
As for OP, WHM is a pure-healer -- you've perceived this to mean 'simple healer' due to said pure-healing being achieved through simple means. This doesn't magically give it a new identity, so don't play the identity card as many people perceive X or Y in different ways - the one constant is the pure side of it - and yet they could randomly decide to change even that on a whim.
As for Repose, we have it for levelling, dungeons, PvP etc. People can say they never use it - the reality is it has situational uses (and a hell of a lot of uses in PvP). I've had plenty of uses for it when levelling up (world & dungeons), and this will likely re-apply when levelling in Stormblood, which (hopefully) will involve enemies that hit hard enough to dissuade this 'pull everything' nonsense. That will come with time by itself anyway. In short, it's situationally useful but falls out of the meta very quickly due to ease of killing vs worth of control. -
06-03-2017, 10:53 PMLadyKairiActually I don't think it'll even be used in PvP come SB, considering the changes they're making to the PvP system. If I remember correctly, we will have completely separate actions in PvP than in PvE.Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeDrink
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06-03-2017, 11:00 PMNathair
PvP it's getting its own actions anyway.
On the other hand, while every healer except AST is taking a hit (SCH is getting a nerfed Aetherflow, losing every aoe dps it had and AST is getting better shields except for a crit adlo spread, which CD makes it not that worth it anyway), I do agree WHM, no pun intended, got the shaft.
The lilies system is unreliable, which means no one will plan heals around it, the confession stacks, nor the lower cooldown the flowers would give.
Which basically means that most of the new whm kit is going to be, while not ignored, not included in raid healing planning. Which is really close to ignoring truth to be told. -
06-04-2017, 12:10 AMAcidbloodNo, 'pure healer' is nothing but a label they have decided to slap on WHM, and my point is that WHM, to me at least, has never been about being 'pure', and I wouldn't care at all (in fact, I, and a lot of other people from the sounds of these forums, would love it) if they took the 'pure' label off and gave it some useful utility.Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeDrink
Being (relatively) 'simple' on the other hand, is the playstyle that WHM has always had (even throughout FF history), and to suddenly change that now, by tacking on some needless RNG gate mechanics no less, will do far more to ruin WHM than any reasonable amount of utility ever would.
As others have said, PvP has its own actions in 4.0, so WHM can still have it there. As for PvE, in the last 2 years I've never even found a single use for the AoE sleep that BLM has, let alone a use for a single target version on a job that has many times the survivability (even more so now that Cleric Stance is gone) ... if crowd control is making a solid comeback though, then yes, it would be nice to have.Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeDrink
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06-04-2017, 01:31 AMAlkimiI'd argue that the confessions mechanic is a lot better than the lillies. However it will depend a lot on how much damage tanks will be taking in 4.0 raids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acidblood
Remember that Plenury doesn't remove the confession stacks of the healed target. So if you are able to maintain it because the tank needs frequent cures then it's a free up to 600 potency heal every 15 seconds. I just wish it was higher than 20% proc rate because stacks can too easily fall off just because you're unlucky. -
06-04-2017, 01:52 AMReivya
Does Plenary not remove stacks? I thought I saw them get consumed from one of the media event videos, I think it was near the end of the gamer escape one.
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06-04-2017, 03:02 AMRopeDrinkThere's very little complexity about the mechanic at all. RNG in itself doesn't really add any need for thought. I've just been watching a vid of the first dungeon in SB that has a WHM healer and it's essentially unchanged // not far from what I suspected it'd be in the first place - complete freedom to lob Stone IV, while the cure-lily mechanic being something to enforce oh-crap moments, especially when you can PoM and cast spells for 0 MP costs (forget its name) and thus fish for opportunities to finish phases with X or Y skill and lower its cooldown in the process to make further Stone IV'ing later even easier. I don't feel the need to be casting non-heals or non-DPS spells to feel useful, especially not as an aggressive-minded player who's all too happy to throw stones for days. It's simple to play and gives you only a handful of layers to consider - otherwise it remains the simple 'pure' Healer, or whatever fancy word you want to tack onto how it plays in its current incarnation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acidblood
I have no doubt things will be balanced out in someway, beit WHM being pushed forward in healing power while others take a step back to make up for it in utility or whatever, but if they haven't given the job utility by now (and clearly show no desire to do so for the upcoming expansion) then it's safe to assume it won't get one any time soon.
As for the PvP/Repose, people asked what the point was - not what the point will be. I was referring to it in the present, where its usefulness, like some other spells, naturally falls off the planet as the meta shifts. There's no reason to use it now when everyone is pulling everything into AoE (at least not outside of levelling in low-dungeons or world), yet you would use it plenty in PvP while it is not a shared/PvP action. I don't much care how that'll change as PvP is something I believe most people avoid, at least so long as we're not forced to participate in it (eg. world PvP objectives or other nonsense) - but at the end of the day, I'd still prefer to have it on my bar than off it. -
06-04-2017, 03:01 PMKatryn
I'm slightly concerned about how well I'll be able to keep track of confession stacks--if the way healing ends up working even leads to my party getting them--since my vision isn't perfect. I really love how white mage is currently and I hope that the changes will not result in me needing to find a new job that I can play properly.
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06-04-2017, 06:10 PMLovescakewhat?Quote:
Originally Posted by Acidblood
It's the exact same executional outcome, except an astro can press draw.... -
06-04-2017, 06:33 PMTint
this mechanic doesn't make WHM any more complex than it is now. you just heal and dps like always and this whole lilly mechanic and stuff is working in the background completely on it's own. you can basically ignore the whole thing, it's RNG anyway so you can't plan around it.
so what does the lilly system do then?
it increases your heal output when you are already healing a lot - completely automatically. you just have to heal like you do it already, press off-gcd heals when ready and necesseray, otherwise use your GCD heals. the only thing wich you have to look out for are the confession stacks. you don't have to healspam to get them - you will get them automatically while healing or not, it doesn't matter, since you have enough options to heal. you don't need the confession stacks, but if you have some on the tank you can use them for another basically free heal. -
06-04-2017, 07:53 PMCeasariaLol ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Acidblood
Not at all.
I will not remind what Scholar lost, but be certain, it lost its complexity because of the simplified dps part.
Meanwhile, AST him gain in complexity with more management cards and Eartly Star to plan well in advance.
I want to alert every healer (especially WHM) who want to change job to go to AST. Just be careful, it's a more complex job.
For WHM, you have : heal and dps
For AST, you have : heal, dps and cards.
I have seen many AST during Heveansward who couldn't played well at some point they just let some abilities unused like Time Dilatation, Celestial Opposition or Disable (or used them once for a fight of 10 min...)
So, think twice before making your choice. -
06-04-2017, 08:29 PMAdventica6
The only healer I want to see in my parties is Astro, for balance cards, I don't like my dungeons/raids taking forever, I don't have unlimited time to stare at my monitor. So if 1 healer brings dps buffs and the others don't well it's a pretty damn simple choice isn't it?
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06-04-2017, 08:44 PMJohaandrAnd i don't like having people like you in my dungeon/raid party. You're delusional and will just slow me down... bcuse i chose to go in as WHM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventica6
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06-04-2017, 09:01 PMjoannaluttrellWHM is (and will remain) the best healer for dungeons, but you do you I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventica6
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06-04-2017, 09:13 PMIttyBitty
The problem with lilies is that, as a system, it is not engaging in any way whatsoever. Your only way to interact with it is to spam your inefficient GCD heals and not use any oGCDs that are affected by it until you get 3 lilies. Then you'll be "rewarded" with 20% recast reduction on one ability. Or you can put a slightly better stoneskin on someone with a 60s cooldown. Yaaaaaaaaaaaay.
There's no fun to be had here. Nothing to think about. Disable the lily bar UI and you'll not even play any differently, tbh. That's how awful it is. -
06-04-2017, 11:49 PMHyperia
Pure healer.. with the best sustained dps. They want whm to be a pure healer but in most raids, they would dps if they ever get in. Ast is the powerhouse healer now. As to stacks, just macro them into a cure macro and don't worry about them. The impact of them is minimal and if you get one to go off, bonus, if not /shrug, if your doing your job right, it won't be that much of an impact either way.
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06-04-2017, 11:53 PMHyperiaOh great, just what I need, more RNG in my cooldown management. I really don't want this to be honest because I depend on knowing when my CDs are going to be ready for raid mechanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by IttyBitty
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06-05-2017, 12:55 AMCyroccoTake yourself back to the DPS threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventica6
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06-05-2017, 01:22 AMGeminaThen plan on them using their baseline CDs, and don't even factor RNG into at all. The lily system was not implemented to make or break a raid, nor should any RNG mechanic. If you run short on MP, or worse: the raid wipes because you were banking on RNG to help you out, then you're exercising poor management of your resources in the first place. Simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyperia
The lily system in its current state, is there to shorten a CD on one of your stronger abilities. Don't bother bringing up how negligible the shortened duration is, it doesn't change the fact that it is still shorter. Using up the lilies is the only thing about it that isn't RNG. You get the shorter CD hands down, or a buffed up, mid-battle stoneskin. Your choice. The system doesn't do anything to hurt you, UNLESS you rely on the RNG. -
06-15-2017, 02:51 AMWasselin
I don't understand why that added class gauges so people don't have to track debuffs and buffs but then they add confessions. Isn't that what class guages were for?
Also, aren't we white mages, why so many religious themed spell ability names? -
06-15-2017, 03:04 AMElamys80% of ASTs in dungeons don't even touch their cards anyways and WHM does better dungeon DPS so have fun with thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Adventica6
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06-16-2017, 03:50 AMMyowzayaTrousasI keep seeing this meme over and over and over again. Do people really think that Cure and Cure II are inefficient and useless? What exactly are they using as a main heal? Medica?Quote:
Originally Posted by IttyBitty
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06-16-2017, 04:06 AMKitfoxRegen. /10charQuote:
Originally Posted by MyowzayaTrousas
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06-16-2017, 04:52 AMVanilleFangRegen, Asylum, and Tetra can pretty much heal your tank through most pulls.Quote:
Originally Posted by MyowzayaTrousas
And possibly Bene if shit hits the fan. -
06-16-2017, 05:07 AMIttyBitty
It's...not a meme?
It's math. Regen is far more efficient than your Cure spells in every conceivable way. It heals more over its duration than Cure, costs less mana than the equivalent healing would cost via Cure, and it's instant meaning you can weave an oGCD into the cast (like say, Asylum. Or Tetra. Or Assize).
That's more than enough for dungeons, and even in trials and raids it can go a long way if you also have a fairy on board.
Cure and Cure II have their uses. They just sit pretty much at the bottom of the priority queue for single target healing. If you need healing RIGHT THIS SECOND, you go to Tetra. If Tetra isn't up, then Cure. If Cure won't heal enough, then Cure II. If -that- isn't enough, then you do have Bene, but that's usually saved for planned Holmgang/Living Dead usage. If the tank is in no danger at all, then you keep Regen rolling and let it do its work. -
06-16-2017, 05:26 AMRivxkobeI know others have already replied to this with factual answers but I just want to emphasis this bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by MyowzayaTrousas
Like... really? Your first thought was medica? When people are talking about Cure and Cure II being inefficient heals you jump to one of, if not the most, inefficient heal (for a single target) in the entire game? -
06-17-2017, 09:38 AMNeelaWith that kind of attitude you should stick to offline games .___.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventica6
It's like a healer/tank would say smn lost aoe power so step aside i just wanna run with Blms from now on - feels great, doesnt it? -
06-17-2017, 12:12 PMHyperiusUltima
It doesn't really. If you want to play an MMO, you should find a class you like playing! I like Playing BRD and WHM just for their simplicity, and with the new changes BRD got I like it even more. WHM I'm still fond of, despite Lilies.
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06-18-2017, 05:36 PMLemuriaDefine 'best', because we lost our claim to that crown a while ago. After Heavensward, the difference in heals between a 60 scholar/astrologian/white mage are pretty much negligible. For your run of the mill dungeons, you simply aren't seeing enough damage to worry about it, so you can spend the rest of your time DPSing or whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by joannaluttrell
Now, bring in Astrologian who can add a damage buff to their strongest members and you've got a party member who can not only heal but enhance as well. That's where the bone of contention lies. The only time our 'immense' healing comes into play is in raids and other high level content where damage is much higher. Even then, Astro can still hold their own against us since they have the majority of our skills.
Now, we have literally given some of our best skills to the role pool meaning we have lost even that identity as the 'best' healer. The lily system, as someone rightly pointed out, doesn't change our dynamic in any way so we're not seeing anything new for all the things we lost. I won't be quitting as a white mage yet, but I'm thoroughly disappointed in these changes. Slowly but surely they're cracking the foundations of what makes WHM a valuable class and if they keep it up it won't even be a viable option before long.