What hlrs are losing in terms of dps

these calculations will not take into account of Cleric uptime and you are lv 70 and all dots hit 100% of time and all abilities used in succession not taking in cds :

Whm in HW:
stone, 140 potency ( Had niche uses due to heavy debuff so its included)
aero, 50 + (25*18s/3) = 200 potency
aero 2, 50 +(50*12s/3) = 250 potency
Fluid aura, 150 potency
Holy, 200 potency then -10% for every extra enemy till theres 6+ where caps at -50%
stone, 3, 210 potency
assize, 300 potency
aero 3, 50 +(40*24s/3) = 370 potency

Whm in SB:
aero 2, 250 potency (see above calculation)
Holy, 200 potency same as before
stone 4, 260 potency
assize, 300 potency
aero3, 370 potency (see above calculation)
Break, 50 potency

so for whm they lose 490 (aero + fluid aura potency + stone 1) - 100 (stone 4 potency increase + break) = 390 potency on bass skills alone.

Sch in HW:
Bio, 40*18s/3 = 240 potency
Energy Drain, 150 potency
Miasma, 20 + (35*24s/3) = 300 potency
Bio 2, 35*30s/3 = 350 potency
Miasma 2, 20 + (10*15s/3) = 70 potency
Shadow flare, 25*30s/3 = 250 potency
Broil, 170 potency
aero, 200 potency ( see above calculation)
blizzard 2, 50 potency ( seen arguements for blizzard 2 on sch not so for ast and whm at 60)
ruin 2, 80 potency

Sch in SB:
Energy Drain, 150 potency
Miasma, 300 potency
Bio 2, 350 potency
Shadow flare, 250 potency
Broil 2, 230 potency
ruin 2, 100 potency
break, 50 potency

So for sch they lose 560 (lose of Bio, Miasma2, aero and blizzard 2) - 130 (Broil 2 potency increase, break and ruin 2 potency increase) = 430 potency lost on the transition

Ast in HW:
Combust, 40*18s/3) = 240 potency
Stella, 100 potency ( had heavy so had very niche uses over malefic 2 so its included)
combust 2, 45*30s/3 = 450 potency
Gravity, 200 potency (acts same as Holy -10% every additional enemy till at -50%)
Malefic 2, 200 potency
aero, 200 potency

Ast in SB:
combust 2, 450 potency
Gravity, 200 potency
steller Blast/Stellar explosion, !50/200 potency ( i'll use stellar explosion in final calculation)
Malefic 3, 210 potency
Lord of crowns, 300 potency (acting you drew this)
break, 50 potency

so for ast they lose 540 ( lose of combust, stella and aero) - 560 (stellar explosion + 10 potency malefic 3 increase and Lord of crowns, + break) = 20 potency gain

TLDR :
Whm loses 390 potency in skills at lv 70
Sch loses 430 potency at lv 70
Ast gains 20 potency at lv 70
This is purely at their peak having every cds to waste and drawn a specific card but yea clearly shows who the favorite is and why removing all lower dots is a bad thing pls reverse this SE its pretty ridiculous you get rid of stance dancing AND neuter the dps capabilities to a point some basic hlr dps rotations are 1, 2 and 2 and 2 >_>

Not to comment on much, but blizzard II on SCh was because they don't have an AoE spam like WHM (Holy) and AST (Gravity)

If those numbers are right, though...Ouch.

Corrections:

All three healers can buy the role skill "Break" which is a 50 potency attack that applies 40% heavy, 2.5 second cast.

SCH still has Ruin II, which is a 100 potency instant cast direct damage spell. Only used while running because it's weak, but it's been buffed a little. In HW it's 80 potency so it gained 20 pot but lost its blind effect.

SCH Bane is also subjective to a large new decay, with the dots being spread reducing by 20% each target. This is notable since it's now the only AoE outside of Shadowflare (which itself is on a new 60 second cooldown).

Determining what they lost is silly if you're going to include things like Stella because no one ever uses Stella for damage, just the heavy. It never appeared in a rotation, much like WHM's Stone I.

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Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

Corrections:

All three healers can buy the role skill "Break" which is a 50 potency attack that applies 40% heavy, 2.5 second cast.

SCH still has Ruin II, which is a 100 potency instant cast direct damage spell. Only used while running because it's weak, but it's been buffed a little. In HW it's 80 potency so it gained 20 pot but lost its blind effect.

Determining what they lost is silly if you're going to include things like Stella because no one ever uses Stella for damage, just the heavy.

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thanks i'll add those in and as for Stella its in same vein as stone 1 because it had the heavy effect it had a very minor use whereas malefic had no use with malefic 2

Also this is pure conjecture on potency lose as cds/rotations are a bit hard to do before SB launches and so i did them as optimal as possible without cleric as SB makes it a temp buff to HW permanent buff:P

so in fact ast gets more treatment with a potency buff XD

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

so in fact ast gets more treatment with a potency buff XD

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I mean... sorta? 2 of their biggest damage spells on there are situational at best. You have to actually draw lord, and the bomb has to gather up enough energy to even do it's full dmg too.

In pure single target DPS without CDs, AST lost a little bit of potency vs the other two jobs and I suspect is going to come in about 10-15% behind SCH and WHM. Simply adding up potency values of abilities they aren't going to be spamming for actual DPSing is a bit misleading =/

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

In pure single target DPS without CDs, AST lost a little bit of potency vs the other two jobs and I suspect is going to come in about 10-15% behind SCH and WHM. Simply adding up potency values of abilities they aren't going to be spamming for actual DPSing is a bit misleading =/

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oh sorry just wanted to highlight potency loss through losing abilities via removal/being upgraded not try to say how things are in a rotation / even stated that having it optimal so having a Lord drawn having the explosion rather than burst etc. Really just wanted to show how gutted hlr dps is going to be in SB

I appreciate your efforts, but as Sebazy pointed out, the wording is a little bit misleading.

In an actual fight, and not accounting for any healing spells used with a GCD, an optimal healer DPS rotation in one minute would be kind of like this:

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- I will take into consideration the tooltips that we have access to, which indicate a 2.39 GCD, which would leave us at a rough aproximation of 25 gcds in a minute. -
- I also won't consider the new bonus from Cleric Stance into account, as it is possible that bringing Cleric Stance as part of our toolkits might not be possible in some encounters. -

For WHM (NOT ACCOUNTING SPELL SPEED INCREASE FROM PRESCENCE OF MIND):

- In Stormblood:

Aero III (370 pot) > Aero + Assize (250+300 =550 pot) > Stone IV (260 pot) until Aero III needs refreshing > Stone IV.

Aero II should only be used for weaving in Assize as a DPS tool, since it has a lower potency than Stone IV. This doesn't take into account possible MP gains from using Aero II and possible Spell Speed increases in DoT damage, I'm just going by potencies alone. Also, Assize now neatly aligns to one use per minute. Due to it's timer, Aero III will be cast around three times in a minute, with an aprox of only two casts p/m coming every third minute. Just for the sake of simplification, I'll consider that Aero III is just cast thrice per minute as an average. Additionally, it looks like Aero III's cast time has been slightly reduced (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that, as of HW, Aero III's cast time is the same as Holy, starting at a base of 3 seconds. New tooltips seem to indicate it sits at 2.5 base now).

In the end, WHM would have 21 casts of Stone IV (totalling 5460 potency in 1m), 3 casts of Aero III (total of 1110 pot/1m) and one cast of 550 pot (from Aero II + Assize)
This totals a potency output of 7120 potency per minute, which equals an average of 284.8 potency per GCD.

>Doing the same maths for WHM's HW rotation in one minute, the result is a total potency of aproximately 6300, with an average of 262.5 per GCD. Taking into account the permanent +10% damage bonus from Cleric Stance, this is converted into a final flat average of 288.75 potency per GCD.
(To reach the number above, I substracted 1 GCD from the 1 minute total to take the slower cast time of Aero III pre 4.0. Also doesn't take Presence of Mind into consideration).

So, for WHM, SB will bring a 4.1 potency loss per minute if Cleric Stance isn't used. I won't make calculations using Presence of Mind cause quite honestly I can't be arsed, and also it would have little impact in comparing the two expansions.


FOR SCH: (NOT ACCOUNTING THE SS INCREASE FROM ENHANCED PET ACTIONS (rng) OR GCD REDUCTION OF FEY WIND)

- In Stormblood:

Miasma (300) > Bio II + ED + Shadowflare (350+150+250) > Broil II (230) until Miasma/Bio II must be refreshed, with ED only weaved in after two Bio II's and one ED being weaved by using Ruin II to avoid clipping a Bio II that would mathematically belong in the next minute, and just for the sake of simplification.

Less notes than WHM's new rotation, as potencies are pretty straightforward and Shadow Flare can only be used once per minute. Same as Aero III, Miasma can be used aproximately thrice per minute, with only two casts going off every third minute.

In one minute, SCH would have 19 casts of Broil II (for 4370 total potency), three casts of Miasma (for 900 total potency), one cast of Bio II + ED + Shadow Flare (for 750 total pot), one cast of Bio II + ED (for 500 total) and one cast of Ruin II + ED (for 250 total).
This totals 6770 potency per minute, which equals an average of 270.8 potency per GCD.

>Doing the same maths for SCH's HW rotation in one minute, the result is a total potency of aproximately 5740, with an average of 239.16 per GCD. Taking into account the permanent +10% damage bonus from Cleric Stance, this is converted into a final flat average of 263.076 potency per GCD.
(To reach the number above, I substracted 1 GCD from the 1 minute total to take the slower cast time of Shadow Flare pre 4.0).

So, for SCH, SB will bring aproximately a 7.7 potency gain per minute if Cleric Stance isn't used. I won't make calculations using Fey Wind cause quite honestly I can't be arsed, and also it would have little impact in comparing the two expansions. It is up for debate if Enhanced Pet Actions would have an effect in these calculations, so I'll leave that up to you for consideration.


For AST: (NOT ACCOUNTING FOR ARROW, HOWEVER, HW ROTATION WILL ACCOUNT FOR THE +5% SPELLSPEED BUFF PRESENT IN DIURNAL SECT, WHICH WOULD GRANT THE HW INCARNATION OF AST AN EXTRA GCD PER MINUTE WHICH THE SB COUNTERPART WOULDN'T HAVE)

- In Stormblood:

Malefic III (210) > Combust II + The Lord + Earthly Star (450+300+200) > Malefic III until refreshing Combust II is necessary, at which time a new use of The Lord might be available.

AST is the simplest one to quantify, since Combust II has a tidy duration of 30 secs. However, The Lord complicates things due to the RNG nature of the skill. Here, I'm assuming that the AST will have a Lord ready at the time of pull, and will convert another card to The Lord before the end of the minute. I'm not accounting for the possibility of only getting The Lord through the use of Sleeve Draw, since it would not be possible to weave it due to the lack of another instant. However, if The Lord was indeed pulled by using Sleeve Draw, and the Drawn card was then transformed into The Lord, Sleeve Draw could plausibly grant an extra 600 potency every two minutes, which translates to an extra 300 potency per minute by clipping into GCDs a little bit. It is up to you to consider if this clipping is significant enough to warrant the reduction of one GCD or not, I will make both calculations, regardless.

In one minute, AST would cast Malefic III a total of 23 times (total potency of 4830), Combust II + The Lord + Earthly Star once (for 950 potency) and Combust + The Lord once (for 750 potency).
This totals 6530 potency per minute, which equals an average of 261.2 potency per GCD.

In the scenario that the double Lord from Sleeve Draw is quantified, and hypothetically sacrificing one GCD (meaning one Malefic III) in favor of the +300 average potency using two Lords within two minutes would entail, AST's total potency per minute equals 6620, which has an average of 264.8 per GCD.

>Doing the same maths for AST's HW rotation in one minute, the result is a total potency of aproximately 5820, with an average of 223.85 per GCD. Taking into account the permanent +10% damage bonus from Cleric Stance, this is converted into a final flat average of 246.235 potency per GCD. However, remember that AST had an extra GCD per minute in HW due to the Diurnal Sect speed buff, which is why the average potency is slightly lower. Being judged within a 25 GCD p/m as the other jobs, AST would put out a total potency of 5620 per minute, averaging 224.8 potency per GCD.

So, for AST, SB will bring aproximately a 18.6 potency gain per minute if Cleric Stance isn't used. Remember, however, that this is ultimately a somewhat unlikely scenario that favors AST's personal DPS only, since it considers AST only getting The Lord when using Minor Arcana, and also actually converting Drawn major Arcana into Minor.

A scenario in which AST gains absolutely no Lord cards would net them 5930 potency per minute, which equals an average of 237.2 potency per GCD, and a loss of 9 potency per GCD coming from HW.




Please consider that this analysis doesn't have exact numbers, as it was made with a lot of approximations to simplify maths a little bit. However, I don't think these simplifications would have too much of an impact in the way these potencies turn out in the end.

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TL;DR:

WHM loses 4.1 potency per minute from HW to SB if not using Cleric Stance bonus in the later.

SCH gains 7.7 potency per minute from HW to SB if not using Cleric Stance bonus in the later.

AST (most likely) loses 9 potency per minute from HW to SB if not using Cleric Stance bonus in the later. *See analysis in-depth for info on AST's possible randomization and how this impacts their personal DPS.



Of course, these numbers don't take into consideration AoE damage, in which we all know SCH will greatly lose out on.

I'm sorry, I can't for the life of me put that in a Spoiler thing. I'd appreciate any help because I'm a moron for forum codes :')

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

Of course, these numbers don't take into consideration AoE damage, in which we all know SCH will greatly lose out on.

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To be fair, that's the main complain from SCH, the AOE power, because it was really nerfed to the ground, getting to the point where is almost non existing.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

I'm sorry, I can't for the life of me put that in a Spoiler thing. I'd appreciate any help because I'm a moron for forum codes :')

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It's "HB" in brackets, for "Hidden box" I think

spoils!

On AoE damage though, Whm gets a buff on assize, if the CD does go from 90 to 60sec, but in an AoE pull takes that long you'll have other problems so it shouldn't really change much. And it looks like holy and aero III (mostly) were unchanged.

Bane changes a lot depending upon target number, and they only get 70 potency from dots (instead of 110) since they don't get corruption mastery III. This leaves bane damage at about 51% at 4 total targets, and 40% at 10 total targets. Also, while you could use tri-bind that's a SMN skill, nevermind. SCH used to be able to use blizzard 2 for 50pot/target, or broil at 170, now broil II is 230, so it's a buff of about 15% at 4 targets, but quickly falls off after that to 46% at 10 targets. My condolences to SCH's AoE.

AST gains earthly star, for, if you're patient, 200 pot/min. It seems gravity is unchanged though, so AST also only gets a small buff in AoE

*all these ignore cleric stance, as it should affect the healers equally in that we don't have to turn it on to do damage, but we also lose the 10% buff.

If those potency calculations hold over into practice and real numbers in game then whm is the king of healers personal burst dps. The trick is can whm mages sustain it over say the scholar which their sustained dps might bypass the whm.