Consolidated vs. Open Combos - Which would you prefer?

Which of the below would you prefer?

Consolidated Combos:

Combos function as before in terms of actions, effects, and availability, but require fewer buttons.
This could take either the form of Finisher-based Combo Keys or Dynamic Keys.

Finisher Based Combo Keys:

As seen in SB PvP, a given combo would be entirely labelled according to its finisher, and one would hit the finisher multiple times in order to reach and then execute it.
E.g. Rather than having separate keys for True Thrust, Vorpal Thrust, and Full Thrust,
only Full Thrust would be shown, and you would hit it 3 times.

Dynamic Keys:

This idea has floated around for a while, though some classes are clearly better candidates at present than others. Essentially, a set of some 6+ weaponskills can be condensed down into 2-3 slots that trade out the skill equipped to each as you progress down their combos. For instance, had Dancing Edge been removed AND Shadow Fang remained a tier-2 move a Ninja might show:

Spinning Edge
Mutilate

Gust Blade
Shadow Fang

Aeolian Edge
Armor Crush

A DRG would alternatively have 4 keys for all 10 ST rotational weaponskills,
1 key for each decision, using the same space as Finisher-Based Keys above,
including the two combos + F&C/WT, the DoT, and the self-buff. Each time either combo is used, it advances to the next.

A Monk would use 3 slots for all 9 weaponskill attacks, cycling through each of 3 sets of 3 skills. Perfect Balance would become a 10-second buff that causes Form Shift to have no animation, delay, or recast time, allowing one to cycle through stances and therefore all weaponskills at will with just the 3 slots.

Open Combos:

Combos use the same, full button count as present but have increased availability and possible rotational complexity in their use, each available (with differing effects) at different "combo" tiers and synergizing with other skills in a variety of ways.
This might be something like using a True Thrust, with a slightly differentiated animation, after a True Thrust->Vorpal Thrust in order to knock back or charge an enemy, or a Monk having reason to Dragon Kick multiple times (losing out on cycling bonuses but gaining some other situational advantages in its place while still paying close attention to other windows).

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To put it another way, if SE were interested in trying to create the most possible (interesting) gameplay PER amount of buttons used, do you think it would be most advantageous to:

- Create as many actual weaponskill possibilities as there are buttons currently spent,

OR

- Use only as many buttons as there currently are actual weaponskill possibilities?

They've already implemented the mechanic but only in pvp. I believe they'll use 4.0 as a test regarding this mechanic to see if they should include it or not for PvE too.
I guess that with all the battle system change they've implemented in SE, they didn't want to add another layer of "possibly unwanted change" to the PvE community.
Most job would definitly benefit from such a system and I'm all for it.

But this system wouldn't work well on some job like monk and ninja since they have more a more elaborated "combo tree".
Dragoon and tanks would definitly benefit from this though.
This could also be a way to introduce new combo to jobs without adding more keybind.

I would like to see us able to construct our own combo consolidations.

In the pvp preview from live letter 36 they showed a UI element that showed which abilities were in the consolidated keys. I don't see why they can't create a UI where they give us 2 or 3 consolidation hotkeys, we put the abilities we want into the consolidated keys and they just cap them out at 3-4 abilities depending on job. It gives us the choice to open up more relevant hotkeys for other things, allows us to decide how we want our combos to function and already has a pretty solid framework in the game.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

I would like to see us able to construct our own combo consolidations.

In the pvp preview from live letter 36 they showed a UI element that showed which abilities were in the consolidated keys. I don't see why they can't create a UI where they give us 2 or 3 consolidation hotkeys, we put the abilities we want into the consolidated keys and they just cap them out at 3-4 abilities depending on job. It gives us the choice to open up more relevant hotkeys for other things, allows us to decide how we want our combos to function and already has a pretty solid framework in the game.

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I tossed out an idea for this before in the "reducing button bloat & skill gap" thread. See if it fits your interest.

Once one has equipped anything to a given hotbar slot, opening up the context menu on said slot (e.g. via right click) will give, among others such as "At Target" (for ground AoEs), "At Mouseover", or "At Focus", the option to "Stack Slot", at the very top of the menu. Once clicked, the option greys somewhat, changes name to "Slot Stacked", a check-mark appears to the right, and will remain as such until unclicked. (A warning will be given if attempting to revert a stacked slot that has already contains more than one skill.)

Once a Stacked Slot, you can then drag and drop other skills into the same slot. Each will be shown via the context menu and, as with Single Slots, can then be individually right-clicked (their context menu opened) on to adjust targeting, etc, and will now also include a "Move Up" and/or "Move Down" option at the head and tail of their context menus. You can also drag-and-drop to adjust their stack order. By default, all combos will stack in ascending order, the opener before the finisher, and a text-log warning will be given if you place the skills out of order. Abilities are shown in slightly smaller print, indented towards the right, as to distinguish between stacked GCDs and oGCDs. With each use, the next weaponskill, spell, or ability in the stack will be shown. If an oGCD (ability) is placed between two GCDs (weaponskills/spells), then both radial cooldowns will be shown by default (can be changed via the Hotbars section of the Character Config menu). Opening the context menu on "Slot Stacked" will allow you to adjust behavior such as to determine acceptable clipping, and individual abilties also have the option to "force" usage, "delay", or "skip" if they would exceed that clipping amount.

Admittedly, this offers just as much automation, apart from having to queue the consecutive abilities with individual key-presses, as an unrestricted macro, but I don't personally see a problem with that.
If a fight allows two unadjusted rotational repetitions of the same complex Stack, the fight's probably too easy outright, regardless of how much control you take away from the player.

i do not wish for consalidated combo

I am all for having an option to take the single-key weaponchain system of PvP into PvE. I was flabbergasted that in their efforts to prevent button bloat on hot/crossbars, they would implement the perfect solution in a setting that they already pruned unnecessary skills from.

Obviously, it's not something that everyone would like, nor need in the case of those with a keybo, but for PS4 and other controller users, the option to have PvE's single-key weaponchains would help immensely, for instance, my dark knight's weaponchains would be cut from six keys down to two! Those four extra slots on one crossbar alone proves how it counteracts the bloat.

And let's be honest - there is no downside to this, especially if it was an option.

Full combos.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

Full combos.

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What does that mean?

Personally, I would like to see them design more down the path of Open Combos, so 1 > 2 > 3 becomes a very rare sequence, but failing that, yeah, may as well just put any straight path combos into a single button and free up the easy to reach keys for frequent oGCDs / combo branches*... not sure about totally customisable stacked buttons though, as that will only encourage people to stack buffs and other things which really shouldn't be stacked (i.e. no 5 button MNKs please).

* By combo branches I mean something like WAR that has Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder > Butcher's Block as it's 'main' combo (so 1 button), but Heavy Swing also combos into Maim > Storm's Path (as a 2nd button), and Maim also combos into Storm's Eye (as a 3rd button) ... reducing the total buttons required from 5 to 3, but all combo actions are still available. MNK could not (and should not) be consolidated in this way however, as it's combos are far more flexible, especially with the likes of Perfect Balance (which removes the stance / combo requirement).

Im all for it. Monk is simply going to be treated lik a caster in regards to the system (Im assuming in the PVP update a few of their options were pruned but well see). There is a way to keep Monks complexity in rotating skill buttons, but it cant work with Perfect Balance. I really see no purpose in having unique buttons for combo starter/progressors for the most part. Just finishers, with the exception of DRGs Wheeling Thrust & Fang and Claw, which should just replace with either, currently I use a macro to set the right one off and have the regular skills to the side to watch activations. So 3 buttons for effectively one slot, bleh. In NINs case, they just lack unique starters and have a lot of unique finishers, its just simply have all the buttons be capable of doing part 1 & 2 and all the buttons advance when any are pressed, still cleans 2 buttons off the bars tho.

I think it should be a setting under character configuration. What difference does it make if I press circle three time or press circle, x, square? If you want to reduce button press then cool, if you want to mash buttons like your at a Starcraft tourney then go nuts.

If a skill is only active under certain conditions, such as being a proc, the button should change as it does in pvp. For example, Jolt 2 procs Impact, and you will always use Impact over Jolt; the Jolt button should change to impact in PvE just like it does in PvP. You literally cannot use impact otherwise, so it doesn't need its own button.

Similarly Ver Holy/Flare are only available once certain conditions are met and they should replace Ver Stone/Fire respectively. Especially since the former will proc the latter after use. You need 4 key binds for these spells when you should really only need 2.

Another example is when Bahamut is out, Ahk Morn should replace the Deathflare key. Also, Ruin should have been upgraded to Ruin 3 like other numbered spells.

I don't mind keeping non conditional skills separated for PvE as that keeps a little bit of risk involved ("oops, I fat-fingered that"), but if a skill literally cannot be used except under certain conditions, the key should change accordingly, even in PvE.

Combat in the current form feels almost as bloated as it did in Heavensward. I'm not seeing the pruning I was promised aside from tiered spells. It's still necessary to bind abilities to awkward keys.

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Originally Posted by Gravton

I think it should be a setting under character configuration. What difference does it make if I press circle three time or press circle, x, square? If you want to reduce button press then cool, if you want to mash buttons like your at a Starcraft tourney then go nuts.

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I agree, I'm for the combo. I can't see how it would be harmful an if other people for any reason doesn't like the change there could be an option to enable or disable it.

Personally anything that says Combo: Skill2342 - is fine with me. Let the previous button turn into the next part of the combo. Where there are choices in combo, let it end at the 2nd stage. For example. Instead of 123, 124, 125 - The 1 should turn into 2, then I have 3,4,5 as separate skills.

Or just put it an option in config - Personally in PVP I think this was handled well. The 'I'm so leet' people can say it makes the game too easy, but it was never hard to press the same monotonous combination to begin with.

That way the difficulty can lie in extra skills and not gauge generators. (And the precious 15oGCD's that people appearntly miss weaving)

This will be the only post on the subject but I must say just on the off chance that the developers do take suggestions from the forums. I would hate this as a controller user. I already have issues that this is done in pvp as it's already messing with my muscle memory with RDM and SAM. This isn't me wanting to be better then anyone or anything like that. This is a matter of I enjoy weaving in combos. I have tried doing the one button combo act with monk via the use of macros back in 2.0 and I have to say it nearly killed the class for me cause I found it so monstrously boring. Maybe it's cause I also play fighting games, I don't know but it feels right. There's many of us who use a controller and have no problem with "Button Bloat". Those who enjoy pushing combo buttons instead of a have one do everything button. So please, if you must consolidate then make it a option. That way you can make two groups happy instead of alienating one.

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Originally Posted by GreyZiiX

I already have issues that this is done in pvp as it\\'s already messing with my muscle memory with RDM and SAM.

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You can always set the pvp combo to several keys so it doenst mess with muscle memory. Just has several icons the same on your hotbar.