Selling/Buying clears, loot, mounts and titles.

This is not a new thing to FFXIV nor it is against the rules as long as real life currencies are not involved.

I have two question regarding this topic:
1 - Are you against selling content to other players? Why?
2 - Why do you think people are buying clears, loot, etc..?

1. I don't care what other players do, I don't pay their sub therefore I'm not against anything.
2. People have jobs or they are not very good (or both) and would rather pay to win (if you call pixels winning).

Even if someone is against people selling runs, what are they going to do about it? huff and puff until they are blue in the face?

Personally, I don't approve of the practice. Because I am not someone who thinks very highly of those who pay for carries, and I think even less of those who sell carries. However, I can't stop the content sellers, nor the people who buy from them. As much as I dislike them, don't see much point in throwing a huge fuss over them.

I sure as heck do not like the idea of people who bought clears/carries joining in on my farm PFs though. I don't have time to carry people when I'm trying to farm content, and I refuse to carry people in general. I'm patient with people who are learning and willing to learn, even if it's a slow process. But I do not and will not carry people. Pull your own weight, or leave. Please.

As for why people buy clears, I think it's probably because they know they won't be able to get a clear otherwise, so they buy one rather than try to earn one. Or perhaps that's just me being cynical.

1. I wouldn't do it myself, nor would I sell clears. However my opinion..

If people pay others to clear content FOR them, then I don't really understand why they even bother playing a game. Just like my take on jump potions (not against them, but don't understand why you would).. If you pay for a game, and pay monthly for a subscription to said game, wouldn't you want to "play" said game, and not just pay other people to play it for you?

It's like buying a new game, starting it, then wanting to jump to the final boss straight away.

2. There are three reasons that come to mind -
a) The "I want it NOW" mentality.
b) Genuine players who don't actually want to pay for a carry, but want to pay for being in a party with other "competent" players (or players that know the fight) in order to gaurentee a clear/farm/whatever.
c) Players who cannot be bothered to form a learning party and learn the content but want the rewards.

I've bought a Nidhogg EX run before, mostly to try to learn part of the fight from what I saw. Mostly because of the mentality of players demanding no bonus and EXP, even in training parties people are unforgiving, and it seems to be one of the only ways to get any experience.

I've bought a clear once and it was born from frustration. Please note that the clear wasn't even for me, it was for my husband and the fight was Titan Extreme. This was back when Titan was a gate getting into Ifrit EX- as well as Thornmarch and Leviathan EX for requiring the completion of Ifrit EX. I basically got tired of the community failing to do mechanics correctly for months, trying to get him a clear so we could do the other primals.

It was funny, too. He still managed to not fall off while out DPSing the people "carrying" him through the trial. Well, it didn't matter in the end, my purse with a little lighter but at least we could progress (I had already cleared Titan EX on a random DF while he was at work).

I've also had the pleasant experience of selling clears. Not everyone that buys clears suck. There are definitely some that do, but some people buy them because they don't want to have to deal with more than the required amount of RNG already involved. We had a few people that bought runs simply so they could take all the drops and then be done. Others bought ponies or lanners (before the tokens were put in place). Others do it for the same reason I bought a Titan EX clear; they simply got tired of parties failing to do the fight correctly.

The last reason I know for people buying clears was for the story. Mainly from people who didn't have the time to raid, or had horrible ping and simply couldn't raid. This was mostly back in the Coil era, when it was attached to the main story. They wanted to know what happened, but circumstances prevented them from raiding. Some of these customers didn't even take drops.

i have bought my titan hm kill for the relic back in 2013. it was nearly impossible to dodge his attacks with the EU servers placed in Canada plus a horrible hardware lag on my end caused by my old PS3.

i am not against selling kills per se, but what i dislike are the prices, they are way too high. people who don't have the time to proper learn and clear the fights don't have time to get that many Gil to pay for the kills. there are some mega-crafters maybe, but the most people will buy the Gil for real money. kill selling is one of the biggest causes for RMT. and yes, the kill sellers know exactly where the Gil is coming from.

Being a mercenary basically amounts to selling a service, putting your time and skill at the client's disposal. This is no different from paying a skilled crafter for an HQ 4 stars gear set.

The only problem I have with it is that prices go up really quickly when you talk about clears, and this motivates a bunch of people to just buy the gil they need. I could say this is RMT with more steps involved, but at the end of the day the people who sell clears can't be accounted responsible for how their clients get their money.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Altena

c) Players who cannot be bothered to form a learning party and learn the content but want the rewards.

---

Answer C is the biggest reason people buy clears in raids from many mmos. There are some people I used to know of the crafting variety, hoarding enough money to cover several characters over, buying clears then using whatever salvageable crafting material from raids to create items to sell...at a price tripling the raid runs.


Merchants are scary people >.<

I cant be against it because I have bought some thordan ex runs like 7-8 months before. Also, I have partcipated in some minor sales before.

I didnt buy the actual thordan ex clear though, I already had that. But at that time, I found that there were hardly any parties for it,
and IF there were, people would constantly wipe and disband after 2-3 attempts.

I for one, am however very impatient sometimes when I want something. I really wanted the thordan bird
and I knew I wouldnt be getting it that way back then. I also wasnt keen on making my own PF (nowadays, I would consider it,but back then...nope).
So I bought 5 runs of thordan ex, played mechanics properly throughout the fight, got bird on the first run, sent a close friend of mine in and
had him get another bird at 5th run. Was lovely. So in my case, I really just bought the time of 7 other people rather than paying to get carried.
Nothing wrong with this.


Getting carried through a clear and THEN joining a PF without any proper knowledge is my only concern.

I personally don't care, because if people are buying content, it's for one of two reasons:

They either don't consider the content enjoyable or are unable to do it in spite of enjoying it. Thus, if the developer gates something they want behind it, they either prefer or require someone else does it for them. It's not dissimilar to buying an item off a crafter instead of engaging in crafting yourself in my book.

I don't think that should be exist in game, the real reason for that is the community :

Many tries in pf to do some content , you have always one or 7 person leaves after one wipe, one who sneak with bonus when it's a farm etc....

Mentality of many players are toxic ....

The sellers exist because of that mentality , then people are tired of all this ,desesperate and buy mount kill etc

The only thing to change that is the community , like an utopia i guess....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Altena

1. I wouldn't do it myself, nor would I sell clears. However my opinion..

If people pay others to clear content FOR them, then I don't really understand why they even bother playing a game. Just like my take on jump potions (not against them, but don't understand why you would).. If you pay for a game, and pay monthly for a subscription to said game, wouldn't you want to "play" said game, and not just pay other people to play it for you?

It's like buying a new game, starting it, then wanting to jump to the final boss straight away.

---

This is my stance as well. I would never buy or sell clears myself and I can't understand the mentality of those who do either. To me MMOs should be about co-operation between the players (working together towards a goal), not treating each other as customers or service providers (in battle content, crafting etc. is a different matter).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yeol

This is not a new thing to FFXIV nor it is against the rules as long as real life currencies are not involved.

I have two question regarding this topic:
1 - Are you against selling content to other players? Why?
2 - Why do you think people are buying clears, loot, etc..?

---

1 - Nope, I've sold stuff since the days of Titan HM. It's always been how I've gotten gil for glamours.

2 - I think the social and time aspects of it plays a big part of things as well. Back in early 2.0 I helped out with a large number of Titan HM specific shells on Ragnarok and helped a massive number of people get their relic clear whilst also doing FC sales often on the very same day. These people that were buying clears literally only had to ask around and they would have gotten a competent group for free.

Meh, let people do what they want.

I'll never buy runs. My FC is pretty cool and will do clears all the time. But not everyone has that option and DF being DF, sometimes there's no other choice to get a clear.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with selling clears.

If i'm skilled enough to carry, why is it wrong to make money off of it?

It's like being a 4 star super awesome crafter and selling your services to people who don't have that skill yet or flat out cant craft for themselves. I don't hear people complaining about that. 'oh he doesn't deserve that glamour because he didn't/can't craft it himself'. Get over yourselves. It's how raiders make their money.

I'm not a crafter so i don't make any money there but if me and my raid buddies are broke knowing that there are people out there who are willing to pay good money for clears (first time or just multiple runs of something for gil). we'd be idiots to not take full advantage of the gil that's staring at us in the face.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wilan

Being a mercenary basically amounts to selling a service, putting your time and skill at the client's disposal. This is no different from paying a skilled crafter for an HQ 4 stars gear set.

---

I like this analogy, I wonder how many people against selling clears have bought gear or furniture crafted by other people, items they didn't earn.

I do not buy clears and I certainly do not sell the, XD

People make Gil their own way and it is not up to me to dictate whether that is right or wrong.

Quote:

---

1 - Are you against selling content to other players? Why?

---

No, because I just don't care that things.

Quote:

---

2 - Why do you think people are buying clears, loot, etc..?

---

Maybe to clear some content they cannot, for any reason.

I would consider buying an hour's worth of time of a competent group to learn the instances. A group that wouldn't disband after one wipe because sometimes that's how PF is. If I got a clear from it, well then that group made quick, easy money. It's not like the group is extorting if a player agrees to their terms or actively seeks them out.

I am against this. I consider it an illegitimate achievement/mount/gear/what have you not.

I'm against selling carries, completely, just as I am against selling fast Qs. We're the Warrior of Light, in keeping with that we should have the personal commitment and integrity to help for the sake of helping.

Beyond that, I dislike mercenaries.

The emptiness of the achievement acquired in a carry reminds me of the emptiness people who cheat feel.

I think people buy clears out of laziness and incompetence.

I love selling content, don't matter to me if it's a clear/progression/learn or whatever kind of party.

And while gil is not something that you can't come by quickly, and not even needed unless you're planning on buying 50 house plots for your alts, it's defiantly something to pass time with and giving the less fortunate the option to have specific content cleared.

Some people do not have the time/patients or skill that it sometimes takes to clear that kind of content. And it's wrong to think that people that bought their clears will join farm parties right after or down the line.

In fact, people that open PF's with hilarious descriptions, claiming to have seen specific phases or these phases need to be skipped before even joining the party, are most likely the people that haven't cleared and are looking for carries. They don't want to spend money but believe they are the best gamer on that whole server, just the groups they are going with, are always to blame for their uncleared content.

Most people that sell as well as people that buy, come to an unwritten agreement, and it's always respectful. There's no name shaming or pointing out "bad" players, attitude or making players feel bad and uncomfortable in general. I know it's hard to believe but that's the case, and a high percentage of the players buying these runs will return, to gear up alts or to get the mounts and glamour etc.

Making it for players like me that do sell content a really good investment in the long run. It's more of a "business" then it is based on morale and I think that it should be seen as that.

Like other things in the game, you can't keep looking at the morale or how it would look like in society, otherwise a lot of every day content and community behavior needs to be removed, that a lot of people don't even think off.

It's always the matter on how someone looks at specific scenarios, what doesn't bother me, doesn't mean it won't bother the next player and vice versa.

So asking the question if it should be "official" implemented or "officially" banned/taken measurement against, won't get you a clear and absolute answer, since it's always goes back to "how do I personally feel about......" that kind of situation. And it would be difficult to come to an agreement, either from players as well as GM's.

I think just like parser's, in general it isn't bad, however making it official would lead to a lot of unnecessary drama, since you can't deny the fact that some people are not able to follow specific guidelines that would come with that. While it isn't the majority of course, I wouldn't want to be a GM that has to read and answer as well as take action, from 100+ tickets that were filled wrongly, could invest that time into something that would be more beneficial.

I can understand that side as well, and that leads to the so called grey line of things that are accepted in game, but not strongly enforced and things that are a complete and absolute tabu. Both content sells and parser's fall in that category and I think personally that's how it should be kept.

1.-No i´m not, why would I be? unlike 90% of the people here, I dont care how people choose to play, if thats what they want and make them happy, just let them.

2.-Some people dont have enough time to try a raid for like 5 hours straight every day to get something due to work, lazyness or whatever, thats ok, its their game, if they want that shiny bird and want to pay for it its totally ok, you cant spend the money on anything good in the game anyways.

I used to sell runs, clears, whatever in GW2, until a friend told me we could give them for free. Then we started to give everything for free to people who could answer lore questions. It was fun and we also pissed off the sellers.

But you can't solo/duo content in FF and let the people go in when the boss is at 5%, sadly.

1 - Are you against selling content to other players? Why?

I'm not. Free market and all of that. My FC back at 2.0 launch went into Titan Hard as 7 people and told the 8th random person it was their lucky day, we were a FC, and they were finally getting a clear. We did that all the time, never sold anything. Felt good back then because people needed it for their relic. Nowadays, there's no content walling people. Used to be, but they nerfed Steps of Faith. I guess if someone wants to sell a Zurvan EX clear, it's their business, and it's not like they absolutely need that clear or anything.

2 - Why do you think people are buying clears, loot, etc..?

Not my business, really. People get carried in 4-, 8-, and 24-person content all the time. People who don't AoE a pack of 12 trash mobs, people who don't understand how to play their jobs, etc. There's clearly a market of people without skill who want rewards without effort. Anyone can make money with retainer ventures passively. Not everyone can actively clear content.

I suppose in another sense, with how insular the raiding community is, how uninviting the party finder groups are (Zurvan EX brought out the worst), and how hostile people in duties are, I can understand people just wanting to buy clears and not put up with the immature people playing the game who never learned interpersonal skills or manners.

Endgame is in a bad spot, really. Big disconnect between casual content where you can be AFK and carried through versus EX/Savage where you have to contribute meaningfully. The game doesn't punish and teach you in dungeons / regular trials. So most people never learn, join an EX group, and then they just underperform because they've never been challenged before. I understand them seeing that as a wide gulf between their abilities and these "god tier players" and thinking they can't do it.

Its kinda the same as payed wintrading in rated Feast for me. A Nogo.

It's their gil, if they wanna buy a win/mount/title, I say let em. Personally would never do it myself as I wouldn't feel like I earned it.

Id just like to remind people you CAN have a fc clear something, get your bird for the 10-20 mil price tag involved if you realllllyyy want too.. but if you just make your own world PF, offer 250k each, your gonna spend like 1.7 mil on clearing/getting that mount. If you offer 500k you'll still only be paying 3 mil. If your gonna buy, please, make parties, drop the outrageous prices being demanded.
(*edit: yes they fill up fast)

I don't care their time their gil. Working on the assumption that they earned it legally. Which some crafters/gatherers could probably hire a whole FC to make sure they never missed any content. If they were so interested in it.

To the people offended by this I find you strange. Again working on the assumption they earned the gil legally. Player X joins a FC X can't dodge an aoe to save his life. Any rotation over 1-2-3 is to much of annoyance to be bothered with. But X is amazing social dude everyone loves X when he is on in chat. The FC has some skilled players and some heavy duty players that just aren't into world first clear. It is a little later in the patch cycle a large percentage is at current ILvL cap or close to it. X is on joking and says hey I hear those Alex Savage fights are pretty cool with X reward. People aren't doing much so they get together and run him through 1-12 over the course of the week. He spent every fight dead or with slightly less dps then Eos. No one would question that his FC helped him clear.

Yet hear we are discussing player Y who paid. Who actually might have put more work into other areas of the game. Soap box much. I know lots of decent people who carry FC/LS people through content. Since the OP didn't say that anyone cheated to obtain gil. Shame on you all. Not that it matters I have never paid for anything or been paid. But I have with others carried people through content they could have never cleared. I have never questioned myself for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I'm against selling carries, completely, just as I am against selling fast Qs. We're the Warrior of Light, in keeping with that weshould have the personal commitment and integrity to help for the sake of helping.

Beyond that, I dislike mercenaries.

The emptiness of the achievement acquired in a carry reminds me of the emptiness people who cheat feel.

I think people buy clears out of laziness and incompetence.

---

I been thinking about this seeing the replies here, what is the correct view? In the end I do not think there is any, but conflicting perspective. Next I need compare it to something "free" If a person likes playing DPS, how are they wrong for asking a friend that likes to queue with them wrong? It can't be wrong, so why would it be wrong for paying someone for their time (doing the df with you) for gil? With that said, here are my answers.


1 - Are you against selling content to other players? Why?
No, you are basically buying someone's time. When I craft for people, like when I did 3 star when it was current, I would factor how long it takes to do it (since it was HQ requests ofc and it takes time, i did up to 4 hours of crafting for a person. So they better give a respect to pay for that time, it is no different to those that sell content. I would not do 4 hours a crafting for someone for free, or even 30 mins or 10 mins, so same with clearing something hard for the person.

2 - Why do you think people are buying clears, loot, etc..?
Easy, because they do not want to bother with PF horror stories, we have a thread (961 pages of this posting) on why people would lean on buying clears.

It's just not your business what other players do with their time or money, just like it's not my business what you do at home.

This isn't a dictatorship, you don't get the right to tell others what is right or what is wrong. You go about your way, and if you don't like something it's polite to keep it to yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moonlite

snip

---

I have helped friends through content myself (Ex primals, usually). But I wasn't carrying them. I know they could clear on their own. However, I chose to help them either because they asked, or to make it easier on them by having someone in the fight that knows the fight and what to do, knows the mechanics, how to handle said mechanics, and can call them out in case friend needs pointers/indicators, or just to have a friendly face in the group of strangers to make the learning party/clear less stressful (this is usually the case for one of my friends who suffers from mild autism; it helps her to have someone she knows in new content just because she feels a bit more relaxed and not alone). I wouldn't call that carrying, because my friends put forth the effort to try and earn their clear, and if they feel like they didn't do well enough in the fight, they feel like they were undeserving of any rewards they get, compared to some of these players who just don't care about their performance but will gladly roll Need on that pony whistle or bird lanner (and who, for whatever reason, always seem to win it). Have there been some times where I've helped friends and they made several mistakes (some of them the same mistake) and died a lot? Yes, there have been. But they always learned or tried to learn from those mistakes, and tried to improve themselves. That's not what I would consider carrying.

What I consider carrying are these individuals that pay people to essentially clear content for them while they do the bare minimum, or nothing at all, like dying in the middle of a fight, raising, and then standing outside of boss rooms. Or barely putting out enough DPS that there's no way they aren't just spamming 1-2-3 basic combos, or even doing much more than auto-attacking. That's what I consider carrying. Not just helping people learn and clear content. Sorry if I am misinterpreting your post, but since you are saying "shame on you all" to basically everyone in this thread for only answering the OP's post that asks for our opinions/thoughts on the topic, I figured I would post my two Gil on what I consider carrying to be. I'm sure not everyone who buys clears are the type to just want to be carried through the content; however, I just can't agree with the practice because it's not something that I would ever do.



@Ama_Hamada - While these are just my thoughts on your second point, I would much rather deal with a "PF horror story" than feel like I didn't earn a clear for something. To me, nothing feels worse than feeling like I was carried through something, and I say this with regards to more than just duties in this video game. If I achieve something, but don't feel like I did enough to earn it, it ruins the entire thing for me.

I know you've seen my posts in the Duty Finder thread; I have several tales from DF/PF/RF, and I have shared numerous ones on this forum, and even a couple on FFXIV's subreddit. But, at the end of the day, whether I suffered or not, I earned my clears, my mounts, and my titles though my own effort, skill, and hard work. That's worth the "horror stories," at least, for me. Because I worked hard, and through my own blood, sweat, and tears, earned something. Maybe it's just how I was raised, because I was raised believing that if you wanted to achieve something, you worked for it. Sometimes you had to work hard for it--you didn't sit around and complain until it was handed to you; you didn't pay people to do it for you. That way, when you earned it, you felt like you had truly accomplished something; like you truly deserved everything you worked to achieve. How I was raised was probably also why I just can't agree with buying content; speaking with regards to my own ethics, I just can't agree with it.



But, again, these are just my thoughts and my opinions, and I know others won't share them. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and no one's opinions are right or wrong--some I just simply disagree with. Which is okay, because I'm certain people will disagree with mine. Such is the way of life, and the world would probably be pretty boring if we all shared the same opinions on everything. Like I said in my first comment in this thread: I may not agree with it, but it still happens, there's nothing I can do to stop it, and I don't see the need to make a big fuss over it. I just don't want to deal with those who bought carries (note how I said "carries" here and not just general "clears") joining farm groups I'm in, and essentially hoping we either won't notice that they have no idea what they're doing, or just expect us to deal with it and carry them for free.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yeol

This is not a new thing to FFXIV nor it is against the rules as long as real life currencies are not involved.

I have two question regarding this topic:
1 - Are you against selling content to other players? Why?
2 - Why do you think people are buying clears, loot, etc..?

---

1. Of course not. I'd actually feel kinda good about myself and my team if we had the skill to do these battles while missing one of any role. If there wasn't a demand, there wouldn't be a supply.
2. All of those and more. I know in my case, I bought some clears simply because nobody else was doing the content. Sat in DF for 8 hours, nobody joined. Put up PFs for days, nobody joined. I had no static and no friends, so there was literally no other option. The crazy part is at least one of them was a fight I already had on farm.

Really it's nothing but paid sherpas

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

@Ama_Hamada - While these are just my thoughts on your second point, I would much rather deal with a "PF horror story" than feel like I didn't earn a clear for something. To me, nothing feels worse than feeling like I was carried through something, and I say this with regards to more than just duties in this video game. If I achieve something, but don't feel like I did enough to earn it, it ruins the entire thing for me.I know you've seen my posts in the Duty Finder thread; I have several tales from DF/PF/RF, and I have shared numerous ones on this forum, and even a couple on FFXIV's subreddit. But, at the end of the day, whether I suffered or not, I earned my clears, my mounts, and my titles though my own effort, skill, and hard work. That's worth the "horror stories," at least, for me. Because I worked hard, and through my own blood, sweat, and tears, earned something. Maybe it's just how I was raised, because I was raised believing that if you wanted to achieve something, you worked for it. Sometimes you had to work hard for it--you didn't sit around and complain until it was handed to you; you didn't pay people to do it for you. That way, when you earned it, you felt like you had truly accomplished something; like you truly deserved everything you worked to achieve. How I was raised was probably also why I just can't agree with buying content; speaking with regards to my own ethics, I just can't agree with it.

---

It is something I am unlikely to do, outside rare circumstances and not something I have not done yet. But I am a crafter and know how make tons of gil, that also requires skill and patience. People should not look down on the person paying me 4 hours for a crafting order, paying me for my time, just like someone else may do for clears, or whatever.

While I would never buy a clear myself, I couldn't care less what someone else does. For some raiders, being a mercenary is their sole source of income. The way I see it, when Stormblood launches, crafters knowingly price gouge people by selling weapons, food and pots at exceedingly high value. Why? Because they can and stuff sells at those prices. Selling content isn't that much different in a sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

While I would never buy a clear myself, I couldn't care less what someone else does. For some raiders, being a mercenary is their sole source of income. The way I see it, when Stormblood launches, crafters knowingly price gouge people by selling weapons, food and pots at exceedingly high value. Why? Because they can and stuff sells at those prices. Selling content isn't that much different in a sense.

---

Not that simple, it is more supply and demand thing and the fact getting the materials cost much more for the same reason. It is very hard to place a true value on new items and no one wants to lose money from time invested x material cost x risk of buying high cost materials x competing with undercutters x cost of being able make x item (like max melding for 4 star). You have to set it high so when someone undercuts you, you undercuut them back and your not selling at a loss by the time it does sell. Then ofc it is up to the buyer to determine if it is worth it to them.

Even in real life, you always ask more then you expect, because if you start out with your expected price, people will haggle down you to a price you may dislike, you have to expect it.

If they buy something that I find a high price, it is instantly replaced, so that is that motivation to have something listed vs nothing at all. When I sell it at an average price or low price, I do not drop everything I am doing to replace it.

This reminds me ...
Back in the day, in Lineage 1, we formed a clan that acted as mercenaries during the siege times. We were paid with IN-GAME currency, to just be there to either defend or attack. We always had a blast.

There is nothing wrong with it, and it shouldn't be against the rules (and it isn't right now). It is just like any other market place, I am selling my services, my expertise, my knowledge and MY time, for gil. Someone with a rich dad or a thick wallet or a generous FC, I don't know, and don't care, is willing to pay top gil for my said services. It is win-win.

This reminds me, I should remake the old lineage clan as a link/static and what not here in FFXIV for mounts/loot/clears and whatever it is we can squeeze out of people's pocket.
(PS: I am on Moogle, anyone wants to join drop me a line, peace!)