Because everyone Loves Parsers

So I had a discussion on the FF14 Facebook page. From what most of you said you can not live without your parsers. Square Enix should put parsers into the game as a UI option. Parsers only provided by Square Enix for security reasons. They should track DPS, HPS, and Threat. For the fun of it why not XP per hour and gil per hour because it could be useful. While playing your performance info is visible to you and the party leader only. That way we have an ability to correct poor performance or remove a poor performer. At the end of every Dungeon, Trial, or Raid you can view a screen much like in PvP that shows the stats of everyone who was in the party. Let’s make it so that it even shows the people who left or got booted. From this screen you can Blacklist people you don’t ever want to form a party with again due to poor performance or them just being “Toxic” as many have put it. Does that sound like something people would want? Maybe SE could work on implementing it?

yeah, sounds good^^ but they have to increase the size of the blacklist then, or otherwise i can't use this new feature to blacklist 90% of my data center :O and if they bring such a nice feature i want to use it to full extend o.o/

In Star Wars The Old Republic the parser only shows values for people who opt in.

The parser itself by default only shows your own hps, dps and threat. For raiding you can set up a server with a password that other people with the parser can join and then everyone can see info for whoever has joined the parse server.

This eliminates parse shaming for randos and still allows raid groups the tools to see if people need to make adjustments to gear or rotations.

No. Parsers have their place but general content is definitely not one of them. This game is tuned so that you can get away without doing a finger-blistering top-dps rotation when in story mode dungeons or during FATE farming. Those who benefit most (& claim to *need* parsing) already use it. Everybody in this game has more than enough material both in & out of game to help improve & master rotations & the like.

I honestly would not like parser in the game, I had problem before with arrogant people due to my friend under healing a instance, as well, to prevent future harassment due to game performance and provoke a negative climate I refuse the game parsing for everyone. Of course people can option to agree in parsing and know their performance, but what will happen with people will refuse being parsed?

Even in dungeons I had people doing bad use of parsing and this pisses me off when a friend is harassed (mainly one who dont play the game with frequence).

They will never use parsing due to the already toxic nature of some people. They don't want to add fuel to the fire.

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Originally Posted by Ayasaki128

I honestly would not like parser in the game, I had problem before with arrogant people due to my friend under healing a instance, as well, to prevent future harassment due to game performance and provoke a negative climate I refuse the game parsing for everyone. Of course people can option to agree in parsing and know their performance, but what will happen with people will refuse being parsed?

Even in dungeons I had people doing bad use of parsing and this pisses me off when a friend is harassed (mainly one who dont play the game with frequence).

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You are actually wrong with your argument.
Parser already exist, it's called ACT. Anyone can know anything about what you during a duty.
But, something was clear about harrasment/threat/kick. The use of the parser is basically not allowed, but Square didn't try to strike it.

However... if you use these numbers to be a jerk with people : you can be banned.
Someone is harrassing you because of this? Report, he'll be probably banned cause it's forbidden.

You "have the right to use a parser but you have to be respectful and you can't kick someone based on this"

That's all I wanted to say.
Based on that rule, there won't be more toxicity or negative climate like you say.
+ it'll allow ps4 players to have at least their dps (they don't need to put a pars for the entire party, or even if they do, they could put an option to don't show it if you don't want to).

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That way we have an ability to correct poor performance or remove a poor performer.

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This is the reason why SE wont agree with parsers. Yes I think parsers are a good idea, but only to see your own personal DPS, ACC etc. Now outside of the game players should be able to compare with other players. It should be a tool to help players improve, not a tool to help tools kick a player.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

This is the reason why SE wont agree with parsers. Yes I think parsers are a good idea, but only to see your own personal DPS, ACC etc. Now outside of the game players should be able to compare with other players. It should be a tool to help players improve, not a tool to help tools kick a player.

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Is not kicking someone worth abandoned duties? Because that's what we have now.

When the group is failing a DPS check over and over, it abandons. If parsing was legal, I could say "the BLM is doing 500 DPS" and we could fix the problem and just get 1 more person instead of throwing everyone back out.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

No. Parsers have their place but general content is definitely not one of them. This game is tuned so that you can get away without doing a finger-blistering top-dps rotation when in story mode dungeons or during FATE farming. Those who benefit most (& claim to *need* parsing) already use it. Everybody in this game has more than enough material both in & out of game to help improve & master rotations & the like.

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even tho I like ps4 just as much it sucks that you dont have the feature to praise so It would actually be a good thing if they added them

I'd really like to see a personal parser added to the game that gives you details on your own stats.

But parsing other party members should remain a bannable offense as it is now. There are just too many toxic players who would abuse it.

As a PS4 player, I would like a parser to know how I am doing and work to improve. I don't need to know how others are doing. They may keep the don't kick players for a low parse even though that happens now. So I wouldn't see much changing. I am sure my PC friends are tired of me asking how I did on blm.

You don't need a parser to know when someone is underperforming, therefore anybody arguing that parsers are a negative thing are completely wrong. You can tell your DPS is high or low based on how fast you take out enemy's (taking your class into consideration), or how how much your healing the tank (tank cool down usage) or how well someone is healing the party. It's not hard to tell.

This same argument pops up every now and then. Yes, I think the parser might be nice for your own performance, and maybe even allow it as far as party wide parsing being an option for preformed party. Most of the content that can actually fail for the weaker performance of one or two is ran in statics or PF and if a static group can't handle a conversation about performance then maybe they should not be a static group. However, party wide parsing should be kept away as soon as randomly selected people step into equation, such as through DF.

Its not even parser vs. no parser that I want to talk about. This game needs more clarity and information in all areas, the fact that we need to use third party software, have people on reddit datamine stats, and use things like FFlogs to deconstruct fights is not good design.

We should be able to see what those numbers next to our stats do IN GAME, we should be able to see the damage/mitigation/healing breakdown of the party IN GAME, we should be able to know if the gear that we have meets the specifications of a fight IN GAME. The dev team knows that these problems exist and they are like "ummmmmm yeahhhh we should remove stats and simplify gear even further because people find it too difficult"

Isn't there Stone, sea, sky?

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

This game needs more clarity and information in all areas, the fact that we need to use third party software, have people on reddit datamine stats, and use things like FFlogs to deconstruct fights is not good design.

We should be able to see what those numbers next to our stats do IN GAME, we should be able to see the damage/mitigation/healing breakdown of the party IN GAME, we should be able to know if the gear that we have meets the specifications of a fight IN GAME.

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With respect, the devs have absolutely no obligation to disclose the effects of stats or the formulas in which they're involved, and a lack of disclosure does not by any means equate to "not good design". Nor is the western player expectation of a game handing the player a complete encyclopedia and atlas of the game the definitive "good design". The devs have certain expectations of the player community, two of these being that we figure some things out on our own, or we cooperate when a single mind is not enough.

These "problems" you allege are nothing but challenges for players to work out. It is after all, a game. Whether any given person falls in whole or in part into either category of (people who figure things out on their own) or (people who seek advice from people who've figured things out), it's fine that the devs don't give us a technical manual of the game because we don't need one to play the game.


The outspoken ones who call for parsers are missing the point of a cooperative multiplayer game. In particular, the suggestion in the original post,

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Originally Posted by Teknosatyr

At the end of every Dungeon, Trial, or Raid you can view a screen much like in PvP that shows the stats of everyone who was in the party. Let’s make it so that it even shows the people who left or got booted. From this screen you can Blacklist people you don’t ever want to form a party with again due to poor performance or them just being “Toxic” as many have put it.

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is asking for license to harass. If you want to blacklist someone specifically for low DPS, you're exercising the exact type of treatment that the devs want to avoid by withholding an in-game damage tracker. If you want to blacklist someone for being 100% a total douchebag, you can already do that from the /contactlist and you don't need a parser to tell when someone's being 100% a total douchebag.

If you want to know if a change to gear or rotation has a noticeable effect on your damage output, go several rounds with a target dummy and keep track of the average time remaining on the clock and see if the changes you're thinking of affect that average positively or negatively.


If someone wants to be exclusive in their hardcore raiding, that's fine, but its up to him and the other seven people to figure out how to make things work. Back to my original point, figuring it out and making it work is part of the game.

But as far as the general game experience as a whole is concerned, adding an in game damage tracker only serves to make it easier to harass people. Without it, those who want damage tracking features for personal improvement can still make do with Stone, Sky, Sea.

They could always add in options for the parser: Show self, Show party, Show alliance, Show none. People can then pick the setting they desire. At the very least, when I was on PS4, I wanted a parser so I could see where I was at, DPS-wise, and if I could improve. But I always had to ask my friends to parse me and let me know since we don't have an in-game parser, and there are no parsing options/ACT for PS4.

I know that there are some people that are just outright mean when it comes to parsers, and harassing other players. But I have played this game going on a year and a half soon, and I can count ONE instance, MAYBE TWO, where a player was harassing another player with their parser numbers (they were subsequently reported by at least 2 other party members and myself). Maybe I've been lucky, or maybe people are exaggerating the amount of people out there that harass via parser. Most people that parse do so for themselves, or to track the progress of their static/party. Especially since this game loves DPS checks (though they aren't as strict as they used to be). I frequently get in PFs for Ex primals or whatnot and people ask in party chat: "Was anyone parsing? I want to know my numbers please."

However, since people like to just automatically discriminate against those who parse, and assume we're all going to start harassing sub-par players, most people that parse don't speak up to reveal as much, even for someone who is truly genuine and not going to try and use "HA! YOU'RE PARSING! REPORTED!!!" against us. The same can be said for wanting to give someone tips to improve their numbers. Instead of being receptive, they just get outright hostile most of the time ("YOU DON'T PAY MY SUB" "FREAKING ELITISTS" etc.).

Parsers aren't a bad thing. It's the mean players that use them as a tool to harass others that are bad. Place the blame on the player, not the parser, because it's not the one harassing you. It's just showing numbers.
The people that are going to harass with just harass anyways, parser or no parser. They always find something to nit-pick about.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

With respect, the devs have absolutely no obligation to disclose the effects of stats or the formulas in which they're involved, and a lack of disclosure does not by any means equate to "not good design". Nor is the western player expectation of a game handing the player a complete encyclopedia and atlas of the game the definitive "good design". The devs have certain expectations of the player community, two of these being that we figure some things out on our own, or we cooperate when a single mind is not enough.

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It isn't "bad design" I should rephrase that, but having clear stats would create more accessibility for more casual players. I'm not asking for an encyclopedia, in fact I'm asking the opposite, I'm asking that if I have 725 crit, what the hell does that mean? If difficulty in understanding stats, party damage, and raid synergy goes down, then content difficulty can go up, and that is what the dev team should be doing, not removing functionality.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

Isn't there Stone, sea, sky?

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Yes, there is. There's also a website that allows you to input the data from SSS to work out a decent approximation of your DPS. It is, effectively, a parser without needing to add any dodgy software.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

Yes, there is. There's also a website that allows you to input the data from SSS to work out a decent approximation of your DPS. It is, effectively, a parser without needing to add any dodgy software.

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Except its not, it is taking damage from an unmoving target that has no attacks. If someone came to me with their SSS numbers I would be like "cool, so what?"

The only benefit to SSS is knowing that your gear is good enough to beat the fight.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Except its not, it is taking damage from an unmoving target that has no attacks. If someone came to me with their SSS numbers I would be like "cool, so what?"

The only benefit to SSS is knowing that your gear is good enough to beat the fight.

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But it does mean that your rotations are good & that you are playing optimally. After all, that is the excuse people who parse use to justify the use of parsers - to ensure players are using optimal rotations.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

snippy snip

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Sorry, Sir, but you are wrong.

Yes, SE is not meant to hand out stat weights, but it is indeed bad game design to force their players use 3rd party software (Since when does a company want their costumers to rely on other companies?!) to get to know these weights.
Or maybe I am missing something, so if you are able to find out the exact numbers of stat weights without a 3rd party software then please enlighten me. :eek:
So far every single PS4 player needs to trust the people who use ACT to work out the stat weights. BTW ACT is a programm that needs adjustment as well, you can't just install it and it will give out precise numbers. According to this all of us console players have to trust in the skills of others.

You say the community needs to work together. I fully agree. But there is also the problem.
Literally everyone playing on console is left out of that, because we can't participate in that field at all. How should we without being able to find out anything about our DPS? Sure. Stone, sea, sky puppets. Not precise at all, so not a valid argument.

Everyone keeps referring to those jerks harassing others for their DPS. What if those haven't even set their ACT correctly? Since you have no such tool/don't use it there is also no way to prove them wrong! :(
I got pointed at once, because someone said I was heavily underperforming as BLM and that he saw it on his ACT. Luckily a friend of mine was with me and parsed as well and told them to get the setup right, because I was doing fairly well.
But me, myself, playing on PS4 had no chance to prove him wrong and that is huge problem!

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

But it does mean that your rotations are good & that you are playing optimally. After all, that is the excuse people who parse use to justify the use of parsers - to ensure players are using optimal rotations.

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Also wrong. It might apply for casual content, but you have ACC caps in EX Primals and Savage Raids. The website is not telling you wether you missed nor how often. You don't get crit rates and don't see any statistics.
Good luck working out a precise analysis without all of the information!

And just because some of you can't handle some d****bags being d****bags we, who really want to improve and min max to the fullest, should be punished?
Not fair.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

But it does mean that your rotations are good & that you are playing optimally. After all, that is the excuse people who parse use to justify the use of parsers - to ensure players are using optimal rotations.

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I guess, but I know far too many people who are like "I do 3000 dps on the SSS dummy" when the parser in content puts them at >1000 because they die all the time, flub their rotations under pressure, and don't know how to adjust their rotations situationally.

Like I said, the data is only valid on a boss that doesn't move or do any mechanics at all.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

Sorry, Sir, but you are wrong.

Yes, SE is not meant to hand out stat weights, but it is indeed bad game design to force their players use 3rd party software (Since when does a company want their costumers to rely on other companies?!) to get to know these weights.
Or maybe I am missing something, so if you are able to find out the exact numbers of stat weights without a 3rd party software then please enlighten me. :eek:

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Your entire argument is based on the presupposition that we are expected to know all the stat weights in a given game. We are not.

Note that I am not denying that one of the goals of the game is to get better, and to put out high numbers. However, one can enact that goal without knowing squat about damage formulas and the microphysiology of secondary stats.

A: "Hey B, accuracy hat or crit hat?"
B: "Do you have X accuracy without the acc hat?"
A: "Yes."
B: "Crit hat."
A: "Cool, thanks. Why X accuracy?"
B: "I miss on Raid Z with (X - 1) but not with X."
A: "Oh, that makes sense."

No parser necessary.

Faced with a less obvious choice, like having to choose between a det+crit chest and a det+speed chest, you can go a few rounds with a dummy and see, "Hey, with the det+crit chest, I killed 5 dummies with a 2m50s average, but with the det+speed chest, I killed 5 dummies with a 2m30s average. Maybe I should wear the det+speed piece."

And hey, no parser necessary there either.

Is it nice to know, down to the permille, how your stats affect your damage? Sure. Do you need to know with that sort of resolution? No. Does the lack of a parser prevent you from forming judgements about what gear you should wear or how you should job? No. (If you think the answer to this one was "yes," see this post).

So no, it's not bad game design, and nobody is forced to use third party software.

Praisers help so much makes you want to improve all around, I know when Im tanking or healer it would be me tryin to out dps the dps thus improving my own dps. Never was toxic never called anyone out just really made you want to improve being on ps4 now you pretty much no nothing at all and it sucks. Its very important I am going to go back to pc just for this very reason because the game refuses to provide good tools for improvement. People are gona be toxic regardless I have learned that and sometimes it even makes you avoid certain content but at a certain point u just gota suck it up and put yourself out there and knowing you are constantly improving would help that right now you have 0 ways of knowing this.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

So no, it's not bad game design, and nobody is forced to use third party software.

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I suppose you never entered a Savage raid and you never did Gordios savage. If you did, you would have never said that last sentence.
It would have been impossible to get those fights done (unnerfed and with minimal ilvl, which actually was, statics had to gear up as far as possible to be able to tackle a3s) without min maxing and pushing dps to its limit by maths and pars analysis.

Have a nice day in copperbell mines easy mode, Sir, in the meantime I will go on fighting for equal rights for PC and PS4 players and giving an ingame parser to finally give fair chances.
:)

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

right now you have 0 ways of knowing this.

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I think this is a huge problem as well.
A lot of people think they are doing pretty well, while in reality they are underperforming really bad. :( If they'd get a parser just for themselves it might open their eyes and they would be more open for suggestions and help from others instead of being butthurt if someone tells them they are not as good as they could be. :/

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Your entire argument is based on the presupposition that we are expected to know all the stat weights in a given game. We are not.

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I never understood why people thought that a dummy actually mattered it does nothing it stands in one spot it doesnt have mechanics, do you think if on zur extreme that if there where no fire puddles that it would be as hard as it is now to skip soar I dont figure as much as it is now. The thing is mechanics effect dps so pretending like they dont is just ignoring that they even exist, so instead of just wondering how much your rotation puts out on a dummy its more important to know the windows and how to do good dps under stress and movement. At this point if gear was the only thing that mattered with most people having ilvl 260 on their mains then everyones dps would be exactly the same but its not.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

No. Parsers have their place but general content is definitely not one of them. This game is tuned so that you can get away without doing a finger-blistering top-dps rotation when in story mode dungeons or during FATE farming. Those who benefit most (& claim to *need* parsing) already use it. Everybody in this game has more than enough material both in & out of game to help improve & master rotations & the like.

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Have you ever met a PS4 player?

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Like I said, the data is only valid on a boss that doesn't move or do any mechanics at all.

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More generally: Any parse is technically only valid for that particular boss.

Since every boss has a different set of mechanics, that means you'll have different uptime, might be more prone to lose Enochian, have to cancel casts more often, might miss positionals more often, there might be AoE in one boss to inflate your numbers but none on another etc etc.

And even then, not all comparisons are valid - Parse runs typically have two Astrologians feeding one person balance cards to inflate their numbers. That's not easily comparable to someone whose group might not have an Astrologian at all. You won't get his numbers, period.
Likewise, your MCH numbers in a comp without a DRG are not directly comparable to a comp with a DRG. The latter will systematically do more damage depending on debuff uptime.

So even if you got a parse number of a live fight, that's not telling the full story. You need to meticulously analyze the parse of the entire fight and tediously calculate out the synergy effects to get a valid number that can be used for comparison. Technically.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

how to do good dps under stress and movement.

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Telling someone "your DPS is low" won't reduce the effect of stress, and you don't need a parser to see when people are dying or getting hit by avoidable things.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Telling someone "your DPS is low" won't reduce the effect of stress, and you don't need a parser to see when people are dying or getting hit by avoidable things.

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Nobody will suddenly learn and improve by being told they are underperforming.

What does happen is that it makes players stop being lazy, because they know they've been found out. I've had plenty of DF-mates start actually playing after being called out, because they knew a kick was coming if they didn't.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Nobody will suddenly learn and improve by being told they are underperforming.

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But no one can stop underperforming if they believe they're actually performing.

I've had several case of pug DPS actually complaining about the dps when they were in fact at the very bottom of the parser.
So... this is also a good example why a perser might be needed. Because there are plenty of people under performing without knowing it.
There should definitely be restrictions, but knowing your own performance in a fight doesn't seem to be too much to ask.

And it doesn't only goes for DPS, healer and tank too could make a great use of knowing either their HpS / overheal or damage taken.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

And it doesn't only goes for DPS, healer and tank too could make a great use of knowing either their HpS / overheal or damage taken.

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To me, this would be the best improvement a parser brings!
Showing healers 'Hey, dude, it's nice to keep your group topped off, but... well, you are overhealing 80% of the time. So, 80% of your heals are not even needed! Time to overthink your strat!'
Or for the tanks: 'Bro, you have a healer in your team, but the amount of incoming damage is too damn high! Use your defensive CDs!'
Sure, those people wont become awesome players within a second, but it would definetly help opening their eyes and help them to improve and train their skills! :)

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Originally Posted by Rongway

But as far as the general game experience as a whole is concerned, adding an in game damage tracker only serves to make it easier to harass people.

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You stop harassment by reporting the harasser to a GM, not by preventing people from parsing.

The common claim that parsers increase player harassment lacks any real evidence that backs it up anyway. It's a misconception.

With the new job-specific UI elements they're adding in Stormblood (they were compared to WeakAuras from WoW), I wonder if they'll be adding some non-numeric tracker of performance. Everyone wants a parser, but a parser by itself has limitations in that you have no idea how good the number it shows is without going and checking Google (or Bing, if you're weird). Parsers also don't usually account for decisions you make that can impact your team (like applying a piercing debuff to help out your BRD, or a NIN keeping the slashing debuff up for the PLD/DRK).

If instead they listed your performance in terms of global percentile (possibly even not giving it an actual number), accounting for things like dodging AoE, buffing the party, putting vulnerabilities on enemies, negating damage, and the like, considering also the circumstances like item level and mob count (possibly even tracking mob to mob), I would think it would be a more helpful indicator of performance.

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Originally Posted by Laraul

The common claim that parsers increase player harassment lacks any real evidence that backs it up anyway. It's a misconception.

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I wouldn't say it's necessarily a misconception, or that it lacks any evidence at all. It's just that the evidence we have is all circumstantial or hearsay, and not objectively quantifiable. No one has done a controlled study of it, so we really cannot make claims either way. Because of this, though, the burden of proof lies with the anti-parser folks.

I don't even know if companies have been keeping the required data, or if they'd allow someone to study it to find meaningful conclusions (namely looking at Blizzard here, since they have the largest sample size).

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

I don't even know if companies have been keeping the required data, or if they'd allow someone to study it to find meaningful conclusions (namely looking at Blizzard here, since they have the largest sample size).

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I can basically guarantee that Blizzard has that data for internal use. Many online gaming companies have entire departments dedicated to analyzing player behavior and psychology. Riot games had at least one neuroscience PhD that would post on their forums from time to time when I last played LoL.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

I can basically guarantee that Blizzard has that data for internal use. Many online gaming companies have entire departments dedicated to analyzing player behavior and psychology. Riot games had at least one neuroscience PhD that would post on their forums from time to time when I last played LoL.

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I wonder how willing they'd be to share it, then. I'm sure they've drawn their own conclusions (comparing use of certain add-ons and/or combinations of add-ons to rates at which players are reported for harassment), but it would be interesting to actually see the data.

EDIT: I believe the other reason SE has been shying away from using parsers is that the community would start to use that number of their DPS to determine whether or not they can enjoy the game or a specific job/class (rather than whether they actually enjoy the gameplay components).

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

I suppose you never entered a Savage raid and you never did Gordios savage. If you did, you would have never said that last sentence.

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Or even any normal (hard) primal or 24 man... SE LOVES DPS checks.

Yeah, I'll admit, from playing other games (haven't been serious enough about FFXIV), I know we've all called out people who were too low on DPS, mainly because there was a minimum required to mathematically kill the boss and they weren't putting in their fair share, so we wiped, over and over. On a boss where everyone has to average 1k DPS for this phase or we wipe, and we keep wiping while the blm is only doing 500 DPS and the utility isn't buffing anyone's damage, questioning his damage because of parsing it would be fair. Why have DPS checks if there's no way to know where you need to improve? These phases exist in the game specifically because your performance matters.