Freedom for Tiamat

Possible Spoilers if you are not far enough with the Story.


The Dragonwar is over, in Ishgard and under the Dragons are almost everyone happy. We are preparing us for Stormblood and looking in the Direction of Ala Mhigo and Doma...

But what is with Tiamat? She is still in Chains. Whenever I am around here, I am so sad to see her suffering.

We should not forget her. She suffered long enough.
Please Hydaelyn, give us the necessary Strength to break her Chains and give her the rightful Freedom and Peace.

(I am vey disappointed, that she was not rescued during the Main-Story. Please Yoshi-P, Devs and Story-Writers, give us the Chance to help her)

Tiamat doesn't want to be freed IIRC. She feels so ashamed of her part in the summoning of Bahamut that she believes she deserves her fate.

Otherwise I'm sure we could get her out without much trouble at all.

It's been a while, but I thought it was her choice to be chained for eternity? I'm sure she doesn't want to be freed.

She was offered freedom and she declined it because she still feels guilty over what she has done.

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Originally Posted by Singularity

Tiamat doesn't want to be freed IIRC. She feels so ashamed of her part in the summoning of Bahamut that she believes she deserves her fate.

Otherwise I'm sure we could get her out without much trouble at all.

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Yes, because of her part in the Primal Bahamut's original creation, she is chained there of her own free will. A form of self exile.

She actually chose to be imprisoned by choice and seclude herself as away to pay for her sin.

I thought that she accepted her Punishment, but did not remember that it is her free will to be prisioned.
Thank you for remembering me that ^^

Though, It would be nice to see her free in future...

I wish she would agree to be freed... not just because it makes me sad to see her but also because with her being chained there, there are also two perfect dragon-eyes chained >.<
seeing what happend with the last dragon eyes it makes me nervous thinking about a pair of eyes basically lying there on a silver plate...

I really wouldn't be surprised if there comes a time when we have to go back and free her whether she wills it or no. If you look at the story in terms of the potential lifespan of an MMO, we're still pretty early in, with (hopefully) many future expansions and storylines to come. Were already firmly allied with one member of the First Brood, so adding another might pretty drastically tip the balance of power in our favor; after all, where would the drama be when and if we eventually see large-scale battle against Garlean forces if we could potentially call upon TWO armies of dragons to aid us?

But by that same thinking, a friendly First Brood dragon just cooling her heels somewhere only the Scions and Garlemald (and maybe some sky pirates?) are capable of reaching easily is way too much potential power to just forget about. I mean, the writers may do just that, but it's just as probable that she's been established for that someday when the plot requires an extraordinarily powerful new ally to move it forward.

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Originally Posted by Mimiru_S

Yes, because of her part in the Primal Bahamut's original creation, she is chained there of her own free will. A form of self exile.

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That's nice and all and I'ma let you finish Tiamat, but first I need to free you so I can make you my mount. - Warrior of Light

:3

I think it's implied she could leave anytime she wants, but chooses to stay there. Which is why she gets made fun off in a quest.

She needs to get off her lazy behind and help us with our mortal affairs D:<

I think she should remain chained, so far we have been repeated over and over that dragons have a different perception of time since they live for so long, yet in the part of the dragonsong war story we played it felt like dragons were always in a hurry to do something. If lore says for dragons things that happened 5000 years ago are as fresh as those that happened just yesterday keeping her chained would at least support this.

If dragons become a focus in the story again I think it should move towards the other sons of Midgy, the ones that do not reside in Eorzea, perhaps we find one of them in Othard.

If I remember correctly it wasn't only her self imposed exile for the acknowledgment of her sin; her rage and grief over losing Bahamas is just as fresh as the day she lost him, and so she chooses to remain imprisoned rather than see what her grief and rage would drive her to if she were freed once more.

We have still yet to see Azdaja and Vrtra, maybe when they finally make an appearance we will end up seeing more of Tiamat.

Pretty sure Tiamat is stuck in place forever. She's currently being used in a side quest where another dragon needs to talk to her for advice, and unless SE wants to design a new cutscene for that, it kinda relies on tiamat being chained in place there. Although she could be released in a side quest chain if it required the current side quest and MSQ flags being met I suppose.

Never forget the level 50 Culinarian quest with Zombie Nanamo. SE has to seriously consider the work of rewriting side quests if they significantly alter a MSQ character that appears in them......
Now I want to make a new character and see if Alisaie will wear her HW outfit for the coils if you finish MSQ before doing them ^^

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Originally Posted by HaelseMikiro

Now I want to make a new character and see if Alisaie will wear her HW outfit for the coils if you finish MSQ before doing them ^^

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Since the cutscene wasn't made with that gear, she will be in her old attire. Imagine it like... Any sidequests done in ARR now are back before HW, and any done in HW are before SB... So in essence you're going back in time to complete them, when in the lore of your character they were already done.

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

We have still yet to see Azdaja and Vrtra, maybe when they finally make an appearance we will end up seeing more of Tiamat.

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I believe that Azdaja and Vrtra are parents of the au ra race in sense

I just wonder how koji fox feels about all this...we need more lore!

She chose to be chained but it could be nice to have an extra quest line (like Hildi for example) to make her realize that mistakes can be forgiven and that she could bring awarness about dealing with the pain and the ravages a Primal can bring.
She could be a fantastic teacher for little dragons and humans.
It could even be a way to make up for what she did, an even harder way because she would have to accept it and face beings like her instead of just slackin in chains

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

I believe that Azdaja and Vrtra are parents of the au ra race in sense

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I was going to point out that word of god has confirmed that the Au Ra are not genetically related to dragons, but then it occurred to me that you might mean that that First Brood pair might have ended up in the Au Ra homeland, and become the basis for their Dusk Mother and Dawn Father, which is a very interesting thought. I don't suppose we have any idea what color Azdeja and Vritra were, or what they looked like?

Seeing as her own father couldn't convince her otherwise, I think she's there for good

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Originally Posted by Lukha

I was going to point out that word of god has confirmed that the Au Ra are not genetically related to dragons, but then it occurred to me that you might mean that that First Brood pair might have ended up in the Au Ra homeland, and become the basis for their Dusk Mother and Dawn Father, which is a very interesting thought. I don't suppose we have any idea what color Azdeja and Vritra were, or what they looked like?

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http://i.imgur.com/TPG2RHZ.jpg

Talking squares; Dark Blue is Vrtra, Pink is Azdaja (the real Bahamut was confirmed to be the green). The scales of Vrtra and Azdaja could have made the Au Ra of old confused and see them as their Mother and Father. I can't truly see it myself but I won't deny the possibility.

Something that irked me a little is that the dragons go on and on about how time is eternal and 'then' is as 'now' for them, and yet despite defending Nidhogg and his horde's rage for the betrayal of Man, Midgardsormr comments on how long it has been and asks if Tiamat will not finally forgive herself.

I'm sorry, I want her to have her freedom too but.... what is the difference here? ;_;

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

http://i.imgur.com/TPG2RHZ.jpg

Talking squares; Dark Blue is Vrtra, Pink is Azdaja (the real Bahamut was confirmed to be the green). The scales of Vrtra and Azdaja could have made the Au Ra of old confused and see them as their Mother and Father. I can't truly see it myself but I won't deny the possibility.

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Should be noted the bottom one, Azdaja, looks strikingly similar to the Iksalions facial structure with similar beak/horns. Perchance theres a possibility that they in a way may be related. Iksalions were stated as remarkably intelligent creatures so maybe they were made from remarkably intelligent stock?

From the artwork of Othard it comes clear to me the Allagan presence was strong in that area. Could it be that the Allagans crossbred the great dragons, making genetic slaves from wyrmblood to serve their war machine and that the Au Ra is one such creation? Much like Nald'thal splitting into two over time theres a chance that the Genderless serpent grew into two deities as time passed.

They have proven the ability to capture the great wyrms relatively unharmed, so why not make use of them as opposed to just let them rot? A facility such as Azyss lla surely cant have been one-of-a kind (excluding warring triad) with the military base functions.

I believe that the two remaining dragons will be found in Othard and Meracydia/Ilsabard, Azdaja residing in the either of the latter two. Vrtra is a character in Hinduism known for blocking rivers, and lo and behold, Othard has one mighty river going right through its landmass. It also looks like a classic fish eating creature with its long pointy snout- great for piercing through waters and catching many fish.

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Originally Posted by Enur

Should be noted the bottom one, Azdaja, looks strikingly similar to the Iksalions facial structure with similar beak/horns. Perchance theres a possibility that they in a way may be related. Iksalions were stated as remarkably intelligent creatures so maybe they were made from remarkably intelligent stock?

From the artwork of Othard it comes clear to me the Allagan presence was strong in that area. Could it be that the Allagans crossbred the great dragons, making genetic slaves from wyrmblood to serve their war machine and that the Au Ra is one such creation? Much like Nald'thal splitting into two over time theres a chance that the Genderless serpent grew into two deities as time passed.

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Think it's just the angle with the Iksalion thing, I see no actual resemblance at all.

As for the the Au Ra, unless SE just decides to go back against what they said again about them, they are in no way at all related to dragons, by any means. They made sure this was known as fact.

She made her bed, let her lie in it. If she wants to sit there whimpering for eternity let her do so.

Whats shes doing is no different from those guys that whip themselves for their sins or those that PUT themselves in jail cause what they did was too much even for themselves. She feels that to repent for what she did is to be jailed for her crimes she brought upon the world and to her mate.

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Originally Posted by Knahli

Something that irked me a little is that the dragons go on and on about how time is eternal and 'then' is as 'now' for them, and yet despite defending Nidhogg and his horde's rage for the betrayal of Man, Midgardsormr comments on how long it has been and asks if Tiamat will not finally forgive herself.

I'm sorry, I want her to have her freedom too but.... what is the difference here? ;_;

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Even if it's not as long for dragons Bahamut's summoning did happen longer ago than Ratatoskyr's death. Look at it this way, it's:

"It's only been a couple of days since his sister was killed so Nidhogg is still pretty volatile."

Vs.

"Please Tiamat, you've not left this room in a week, you need to start forgiving yourself for what happened."

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

Think it's just the angle with the Iksalion thing, I see no actual resemblance at all.

As for the the Au Ra, unless SE just decides to go back against what they said again about them, they are in no way at all related to dragons, by any means. They made sure this was known as fact.

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Ill agree that the Au Ra = Allagan breed theory is flimsy at best and might have no actuality what so ever.

However the Ixal not having any resemblence i will refute

http://i.imgur.com/ADbP2PZ.png

As Ixal and Iksalion shares a head mold i will use an Ixal as they are easier to take screenshots and wont try to tear off my face when nearing them. As can be seen the overall shape is very similar with exact copies of horn and beak. The big difference would be the teeth not being part of the beak but as my thought of it as a cross one would assume they have taken properties of both cross's. Iksalion have feathers much like the geat dragon should be noted.

Freedom isn't what Tiamat needs. Get that dragon some therapy! Are there any dragon psychologists available? I think the poor girl is in serious need of some grief counseling. She may be putting a bit too much of the burden of blame on herself, as well; I'd say the Ascians and Allagans had a FAR greater stake in the disaster than she herself did. I'm guessing she understands that, logically, but emotions can be a bit more tricky... So, counseling!

Seriously, though, as easy as it would be to make Tiamat a permanent fixture in Azys Lla, seeing Tiamat recover from her grief is one of my greatest wishes for the game.

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Originally Posted by Unholychinchilla

Even if it's not as long for dragons Bahamut's summoning did happen longer ago than Ratatoskyr's death.

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Yeah, bear in mind that the Allagans did their thing more than five thousand years ago during the Third Astral Era. All the drama with the Ishgardians, Ratatoskr, and Nidhogg happened less than a thousand years ago, during the Sixth Astral Era. That's quite a difference in timespan, and Middy could easily have felt that Niddy was well within his rights to still hold a grudge, even while feeling that Tia might be a bit of a drama queen about the whole Bahamut disaster.

You are aware that she can break out whenever she feels like it but doesn't want to...?

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Originally Posted by Enur

Much like Nald'thal splitting into two over time theres a chance that the Genderless serpent grew into two deities as time passed.

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Wait, where are you getting 'genderless' from? Unless I missed something, Midgardsormr and his brood are plainly gendered beings? They're refered to in the story with gendered pronouns and we know they pair off for breeding purposes. If I recall correctly, it was even said that the First Brood paired off (Nidhogg/Ratatoskr, Bahamut/Tiamat, Vritra/Azdeja, poor Hraesvelgr was the odd man out) and spread out across the world to find territory in which to raise their broods.

Middy also mentioned something about bringing his eggs with him when he came to this star, which implies to me that he didn't make them all by himself. Which is in itself another hanging plot thread they may plan to come back to, since there's either a very powerful mama dragon out there somewhere wondering where her ex took her kids, or something so terrifying that something like Midgardsormr had no choice but to grab the kids and run, possibly abandoning his mate in the process.

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Originally Posted by Lukha

Wait, where are you getting 'genderless' from? Unless I missed something, Midgardsormr and his brood are plainly gendered beings? They're refered to in the story with gendered pronouns and we know they pair off for breeding purposes. If I recall correctly, it was even said that the First Brood paired off (Nidhogg/Ratatoskr, Bahamut/Tiamat, Vritra/Azdeja, poor Hraesvelgr was the odd man out) and spread out across the world to find territory in which to raise their broods.

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Dragons can reproduce asexually as quote from lorebook: "Altough dragons will identify their gender as either male or female, be it for sake of convenience orpersonal preferrence, every member of the species is capable of reproducing asexually"

In dragon genetics there is no set gender.

And by splitting into two i mean that the locals started revering the great wyrm as a god, then over time forgot the wyrm behind their beleif letting it grow into an abstract idea of a Dusk mother and Dawn father.

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Originally Posted by Enur

Dragons can reproduce asexually as quote from lorebook: "Altough dragons will identify their gender as either male or female, be it for sake of convenience orpersonal preferrence, every member of the species is capable of reproducing asexually"

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Wow, huh. That's really weird; if that's the case, why would they bother taking mates or 'consorts'? I wonder if there's a localization flub in there somewhere? Or does the phrasing 'capable of' imply that they can also reproduce sexually, which would be even weirder...

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Originally Posted by Lukha

Wow, huh. That's really weird; if that's the case, why would they bother taking mates or 'consorts'? I wonder if there's a localization flub in there somewhere? Or does the phrasing 'capable of' imply that they can also reproduce sexually, which would be even weirder...

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I considere dragons to be like snails, asexual until the mating happens where one part changes to female when shot by a hormone filled harpoon. Funny creatures, those dragons.

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Originally Posted by Lukha

Wow, huh. That's really weird; if that's the case, why would they bother taking mates or 'consorts'? I wonder if there's a localization flub in there somewhere? Or does the phrasing 'capable of' imply that they can also reproduce sexually, which would be even weirder...

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I imagine they mostly do so for the emotional relationship rather than any requirement to breed.

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Originally Posted by Unholychinchilla

I imagine they mostly do so for the emotional relationship rather than any requirement to breed.

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That might be the case, but if so it's odd that Nidhogg would take a consort (Tioman) when he's still mourning Ratatoskr. He doesn't seem particularly interested in companionship.

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Originally Posted by Lukha

That might be the case, but if so it's odd that Nidhogg would take a consort (Tioman) when he's still mourning Ratatoskr. He doesn't seem particularly interested in companionship.

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You may have a point there, though she might just have gained a place in his murder-filled heart for being his chief enabler. When encountered in the Aery he seemed pretty pissed about our actions in Sohm Al.

I'm just speculating of course, I don't have access to the lorebook or anything.

You can't rescue someone that doesn't want to be rescued. No one is keeping Tiamat there but herself.