Lately tank stance has started to feel more like easy mode

Since the changes to VIT, tanks have so much HP that with proper CD use it's so easy to survive without tank stance, it's also easy, maybe less so for DRK than the others, to hold hate without tank stance.

Because of this, outside of mass pulling 4 man dungeons and some hard hitting tank busters in ex primals and savage, I basically never use tank stance anymore. It's started to just feel like an easy mode button, the only time I ever lose hate is to tanks who are using tank stance (who are basically just gimping their damage because I'd tank fine if they weren't doing it).

It's making me feel like tank stance should just be removed and replaced with an extra CD because they are just a waste of a hotbar slot most of the time. I get that it helps new and under-geared tanks and for WAR it's kind of rooted into the job. But I think these things could be worked around.

PLD: change sword oath to enlight (same effect just a different name) make shield oath no longer a stance but a CD, remove the damage penalty and just make it increase enmity and reduce damage taken. This makes shield oath more useful to experienced players while still keeping it helpful to under-geared or learning players.

WAR: remove the penalties and buffs from defiance and deliverance and just make them give access to the different moves and tweak some of the moves, unchained = increased parry, healing received and enmity generation, fell cleave add effect increase crit hit rate for 30 seconds. This would lessen the gap between defiance and deliverance on dps allowing WARs to use their defensive kit without feeling like they're sacrificing huge amounts of dps.

DRK: similar to PLD, make grit a CD and remove the damage penalty and grit requirement on souleater's HP drain, change the dark arts effect on power slash to increase damage instead of increase enmity, making the potency of a DA power slash combo higher than a DA souleater combo while keeping an unenhanced power slash weaker than a delirium combo, the trade off then being enmity and damage from power slash vs. hp and mp recovery from souleater. Grit would then serve the same purpose as shield oath in being helpful for learning or under-geared players while just being a buffer for experienced players and power slash vs souleater would have more of a trade off feel to it rather than a "I have to use this combo I don't want to use for the sake of keeping enmity" feel to it.

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Originally Posted by ValentineSnow

Since the changes to VIT, tanks have so much HP that with proper CD use it's so easy to survive without tank stance, it's also easy, maybe less so for DRK than the others, to hold hate without tank stance.

Because of this, outside of mass pulling 4 man dungeons and some hard hitting tank busters in ex primals and savage, I basically never use tank stance anymore. It's started to just feel like an easy mode button, the only time I ever lose hate is to tanks who are using tank stance (who are basically just gimping their damage because I'd tank fine if they weren't doing it).

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well thats a good thing right puts you a step ahead of other tanks

While it may seem like that, the problem with most tanks is that they don't know how to keep enmity even with stance. As long as your a Vet tank and know your role, yes you are correct it can be done without Stance. It would also become more of a challenge for your healer and blms. So yes you could tank without stance, and pray healer and others know their role well enough not to give you and healer a hard time. You could ignore some mechanics as well, you could unintentionally wipe a group, and be hated for it :P

As nice as it is when tanks can do this, we already have tanks that can't hold hate even with tank stance on. :/ I'll be completely honest I would probably stop playing if they changed it to that because I wouldn't want to deal with the headaches. Perfectly fine if you can, but it's a little short-sighted/self-centered thinking that they should change the game so everyone has to play with your level of skill. (also you might want to side-eye your damagers a bit more. If you never have to even fight for enmity in DPS stance, chances are you're carrying crappy DDs and should give them shite accordingly lol).

Your post reads as a not-humblebrag.

You're probably overgeared for the group or content you're running with. Tank stance is otherwise working as intended.

It's got a bit to do with the current ilevel outpacing the "danger" of the content. You may find that in 4.0 the storyline will straight away need you to drop into tank stance & stay that way until, once again, ilevel is unbalanced (later patches). It was the same in later 2.x stages if I recall correctly.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Your post reads as a not-humblebrag

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I read it more as why is tank stance even a thing?

Cause if you think about it, it's a weird concept. Healers don't have "heal stance" (except AST but that's more about heal type than actual ability to heal) they just drop their "DD stance".

Tanks on the other hand have to go into a stance specifically to do their job that they're supposed to be built to do.

I agree that tanks should just be able to do their job without needing a stance for it and just have a "DD stance" that actively hinders their ability to tank while buffing their dps, similar to healers having cleric's.

If any job should have a "tank stance" it should be a dps like mnk or drg, so a job that isn't innately built to tank can do it. The same way healers and tanks can dps in their "DD stance".

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

If any job should have a "tank stance" it should be a dps like mnk or drg, so a job that isn't innately built to tank can do it. The same way healers and tanks can dps in their "DD stance".

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Dragoons already do. It's called"kiss the floor"

As for monk tank. Kinda reminds me of xi. Monk could ask pretty well in counter stance even some of the sky gods. Countering byakkos trick attack was always fun to see.

tank stance isn't really easy mode though. gotta remember pretty much the entire game is easy mode...

Most tanks at endgame level use their tank stance like a cooldown. After enmity is established, they'll use their attack stance for as long as possible, only changing when a big attack is coming.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

As for monk tank. Kinda reminds me of xi. Monk could ask pretty well in counter stance even some of the sky gods. Countering byakkos trick attack was always fun to see.

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My thinking is more along the lines of, imagine if fists of earth was shield oath. If a tank died a MNK could pop that and take over (they're usually top of the enmity list anyway). You're not gonna see them solo tanking ex primals or savage any time soon but a dungeon boss or just holding a trial/raid boss until the tank is back up would be entirely doable.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

My thinking is more along the lines of, imagine if fists of earth was shield oath. If a tank died a MNK could pop that and take over (they're usually top of the enmity list anyway). You're not gonna see them solo tanking ex primals or savage any time soon but a dungeon boss or just holding a trial/raid boss until the tank is back up would be entirely doable.

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DRG has his 80% parry buff and foresight, wich gives him pretty decent defense against physiscal attacks, he has the highest defense stat of all DDs anyway and shares many gear models with tanks. he also has access to some self heals. all what DRG is missing are some enmity skills, especially Provoke, to get enmity. With Elusive Jump he can get rid of enmity so the real tank can take back enmity easiliy.

i really would like to see DRG with offtank utility :x

when he has enmity he also can't do full damage, because he will miss his positionals, wich seems like a good tradeoff...

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Your post reads as a not-humblebrag.

You're probably overgeared for the group or content you're running with. Tank stance is otherwise working as intended.

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What gives you that impression? She isn't wrong in the sense even at ilvl, content outside Savage barely hits. Combined with a decent healer, I can drop tank stance on mass pulls without skipping a beat. Granted, those situations aren't entirely common but I can appreciate the OP feelings that tanking has become easy. On the other hand... people are really bad even with tank stance. So... it's a hard balance.

They don't really balance other jobs around ultrabads though so they probably shouldn't balance tanks that way either. Like if you can't hold hate while staying in tank stance then there's a few possibilities
1) you're way outgeared by the rest of the party and they're not holding back
2) someone is doing something they really shouldn't (blind medica spam or excessively focusing one target during AOE or something)
3) you're not pressing buttons
all of those are situations that should be punished by the game

And it's kinda weird that the whole stance just goes unused outside of the very beginning of a fight (for an enmity burst) and exceptionally strong tank busters. It's even stranger that "neutral" stance exists for paladins and warriors, since sword oath and deliverance have no drawbacks.

There are pros and cons to this idea. On the one hand, designing jobs like this might actually help newer tanks understand the job at earlier levels, which would improve the quality of tanks at endgame.
On the other hand, how many healers do you know that complain about tanks never using their CD's? With this system you would run the risk of complicating the jobs for some players because many tanks don't realize that CD's are not only a thing, but vital to the jobs themselves. In terms of PLD and drk, turning their stances into CD's could ensure that a big portion of the community outright fails at the job. Granted, we already have a plethora of tanks who are sub-par, but even a sub-par tank can clear a dungeon if they have a decent healer. And that's with tank stance as it is.

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Originally Posted by whiteblade89

[...] but even a sub-par tank can clear a dungeon if they have a decent healer.

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With a decent healer, you can clear a dungeon without having a tank at all >_>

When Stormblood comes out and content pushing is a thing again, you'll find out exactly why tank stances are still in the game.

I am an inexperienced tank but trying to learn. I 100% need Grit to function. I have tried running a few dungeons with Grit off and Darkside going, I get hit pretty damn hard!

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Originally Posted by Vrmillion

When Stormblood comes out and content pushing is a thing again, you'll find out exactly why tank stances are still in the game.

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I spent the majority of my time this savage tier out of tank stance, even during first/second week clears. Even in Gordias and Midas you spent most of your time out of tank stance. You also have to consider that if they were to remove tank stances the content would be balanced around that.

Tank stances are necessary. Some tanks are bad enough that they need them for run-of-the-mill aggro generation. New tanks need this a lot until they get their rotation down, and the tank community is already so small that if you don't allow for an easy method to get basic viability, no new player will ever gain enough experience to be a competent tank.

Tank stance also increases the number of mobs you can pull at once and still survive (particularly as Paladins), which directly affects clear speeds as this affects the effective DPS of AoE phases significantly. Some boss attacks are easier to survive with tank stances. And finally, some healers are such terribad DPS wannabes that you wouldn't survive without a tank stance, even if you use cooldowns properly.

If you find yourself never using tank stance at all, you aren't pulling enough mobs, and you're slowing dungeon clear rates that way - so while you seem to think that not requiring tank stance for low-risk run methods makes you a godly tank, it merely makes you a competent one - really good tanks need the stance to implement riskier, but more rewarding strategies.

If you trusted your healer you would use it and pull more. If you didn't trust your healer you would use it and pull less. The only cases where tank stances are not necessary are easy boss fights with competent healers, and cases where your DPS/healer party composition have weak AoE (but your healer is competent).

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

I spent the majority of my time this savage tier out of tank stance, even during first/second week clears. Even in Gordias and Midas you spent most of your time out of tank stance. You also have to consider that if they were to remove tank stances the content would be balanced around that.

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Isn't that mostly the result inflated enmity generation caused by tanks having 15% to 35% more attack power than was originally intended at HW launch?

The Str meta and the changes to Str and Vit have left tanks outputting more damage (and therefore enmity) than SE originally calculated Vit tanks to output when designing HW.

Tank stance is needed especially if you get matched with players of higher item level. Also needed for tank swap.
On my tank (iL269) I can do one enmity combo then turn off thank stance and not lose hate. While my friend (iL250) has to keep his tank stance longer.

I do turn on tank stance when I have used all of my CDs and treat it as a CD later on.

But tanking in this game was always easy mode (very true for warriors, they don't even need to worry about DPS/aggro combos), so whats the point? If anything SE should drop the current model and copy Blizzard with active tanking, meaning short CDs with short duration and failing to use CDs at the right time is not only more damage but extra nasty stuff apply to you. Any other solution will make the job even more boring, if for example they reduce enmity to the point where you are force to tank stance + enmity combo.

Anyway, a quick fix will be locking any defensive skill to tank stance, but this is more a thing for PvP than anything else.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Isn't that mostly the result inflated enmity generation caused by tanks having 15% to 35% more attack power than was originally intended at HW launch?

The Str meta and the changes to Str and Vit have left tanks outputting more damage (and therefore enmity) than SE originally calculated Vit tanks to output when designing HW.

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No. I spent this tier (and the previous two, but whatever) mostly out of tank stance, which came well after the strength changes. It is true that tank enmity is in a weird place, scaling wise - basically, if Heavensward were to continue introducing higher ilvl accessories, tanks would fall closer and closer to DPS in hate generation because VIT only gives .45 AP and the STR on our accessories from materia is static.

However, the lack of tank stance use is more a result of
1) low autoattack damage from bosses
2) powerful enmity tools in the form of retarded (3x) modifiers on tank stance, unchained + tank swap, ninja tools, quelling strikes, etc. all allowing you to gain a large lead at the start and keep it because
3) they haven't used "hate reset" as a mechanic this whole expansion* (and barely in 2.0)
4) tank stance not actually being that powerful in general

Tank stances are only ~25% ehp and a hate modifier (and +hit% but no one fucking gears around tank stance hit caps anyway). For Warriors it allows access to inner beast, which is nice but evidently unnecessary. DRK gets a mediocre heal on Soul Eater. Paladin gets dick (but less of a damage penalty). Generally speaking, not being in a tank stance doesn't really disallow access to your tanking abilities. So, if you can work around the EHP and enmity hit, you're fine. If they really want to make people use tank stance, they need to either lock tools behind it (i.e. Rampart/Sheltron/Sentinel can't be used in Sword Oath, Vengeance can't be used in Deliverance, etc) or massively buff its defensive effect and raise monster damage to match. The problem with that is you'll get a situation where if the tank goes down, someone else immediately gets gibbed, because only tanks can survive monsters.

Finally, if SE balanced around tanks wearing full VIT accessories then they're dumb. Even in 2.0 no one used regular VIT accessories - it was all hybrid melds.

*after writing this I remembered that going in the time warp for alexander resets your hate so that kinda fits.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

No. I spent this tier (and the previous two, but whatever) mostly out of tank stance, which came well after the strength changes. It is true that tank enmity is in a weird place, scaling wise - basically, if Heavensward were to continue introducing higher ilvl accessories, tanks would fall closer and closer to DPS in hate generation because VIT only gives .45 AP and the STR on our accessories from materia is static.

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The Tank potency numbers vs Dps potency numbers ratio has not changed very much since HW launched, but the Tank expected Attack Power vs Dps expected Attack Power has changed. The relative amount of enmity a tank needs to generate to keep an enemy off a dps has not changed while the relative amount of enmity vit tanks generate has increased.

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2) powerful enmity tools in the form of retarded (3x) modifiers on tank stance, unchained + tank swap, ninja tools, quelling strikes, etc. all allowing you to gain a large lead at the start and keep it because

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Its a x2 modifier which was reduced by a either a .75 or .8 penalty. This meant that tank stance generated x1.5 to x1.6 times as much as base (outside a stance). Warrior get the effective x3 by stacking Unchained which removed the .75 multiplier which lets them get a pure x2 which combined with Berzerk's x1.5 AP gives an effective x3 enmity over base. Sword Oath deals roughly x1.15 as much damage as base for the Paladin.

Str tank and pentamelded tanks were doing x1.35 and x1.2 times more damage than base meaning that tanks were putting out 84% to 97% of base tank stance enmity while in dps stance. Even after the changes tanks still generate 74% to 85% the original assumed tank stance amount while in dps stance.

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Finally, if SE balanced around tanks wearing full VIT accessories then they're dumb. Even in 2.0 no one used regular VIT accessories - it was all hybrid melds.

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Which is why the 3.2 Vit and Str changes happened. They were stupid at launch and overestimated things so they buffed Vit and nerfed Str when the problems became far to noticeable to ignore. This hasn't changed what the original enmity meta was supposed to be.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Its a x2 modifier which was reduced by a either a .75 or .8 penalty. This meant that tank stance generated x1.5 to x1.6 times as much as base (outside a stance). Warrior get the effective x3 by stacking Unchained which removed the .75 multiplier which lets them get a pure x2 which combined with Berzerk's x1.5 AP gives an effective x3 enmity over base. Sword Oath deals roughly x1.15 as much damage as base for the Paladin.

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As far as I'm aware, the modifier is actually 2.7x.

Also, enmity is not affected by the damage reduction from the tank stances, and it's actually .75, .80, .85. The Paladin is least affected by damage reduction as its damage is low enough to begin with without further penalties.

Finally, as this 2.7x is after the damage reduction, Unchained Berserk's multiplier is actually 1.5*2.7/0.75 = 5.4x. This insane mod is why it's nearly impossible to lose aggro without a Provoke swap after a warrior uses this to establish aggro.

Yeah, they buffed tank stance enmity near the beginning of Heavensward.

Ultimatecalibur, I think you're underselling the devs' data analysis abilities and failing to address the core point. Even if they were to remove attack power from our accessories, leaving us at the supposed*** intended enmity levels, there are enough enmity management tools to make tanking outside of tank stance possible and comfortable. The only non-tank job that can't really control its enmity output is Monk, and you can have a Ninja help them out with that. Enmity as a factor is practically eliminated, because right now the hate lead we have over everyone else is way more than anything given by attack power from right side accessories. This is, of course, for a party that is working together - average Joe Dark Knight or Jimmy Two-Shields might still lose hate to some schmuck who refuses to use Quelling Strikes.

Without enmity problems, the only reason to use tank stance is survival. There's only a few things that really hit hard enough to force you into tank stance, and a lot of them can be worked around. Even stuff like Divine Spear/whatever his tank buster is called combos can be managed by a non-stance DRK or WAR and a healer working together.

The penalties involved in not using a tank stance can be mostly eliminated by teamwork (and without sacrificing almost any resources), so you only gain by doing so.


***though I would contest this since they KNOW that progression tanks were using melds or STR accessories even in 2.x. They had to know that the same thing would happen in Heavensward, especially since most bosses hit the tank for less (relatively) than in 2.x. I think it's more likely that they balance enmity around rather poor players in dungeons in order to facilitate a smoother DF experience.

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Originally Posted by Mikazuki_Aura

As far as I'm aware, the modifier is actually 2.7x.

Also, enmity is not affected by the damage reduction from the tank stances, and it's actually .75, .80, .85. The Paladin is least affected by damage reduction as its damage is low enough to begin with without further penalties.

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Enmity is damage done times enmity multiplier otherwise Unchained would not change Warrior Enmity generation, and the modifiers in that the post are the modifiers for after the 3.2 changes when the Vit/Str change also happened. Prior to that the Paladin was a .8 penalty while in Shield Oath.

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Finally, as this 2.7x is after the damage reduction, Unchained Berserk's multiplier is actually 1.5*2.7/0.75 = 5.4x. This insane mod is why it's nearly impossible to lose aggro without a Provoke swap after a warrior uses this to establish aggro.

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Actually it is the relatively small loss in enmity generated outside of tank stance that allows for any lead at the start to be mostly maintained throughout the fight. Warrior pulls are actually unnecessary and both Paladins and Dark Knights can create similar giant leads at the start just not as fast.

A 3000 enmity lead would last over 6 minutes if the gap between tank and dps enmity generation is 20 enmity per gcd in the dps' favor. This lead time shrinks as the gap becomes larger.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Yeah, they buffed tank stance enmity near the beginning of Heavensward.

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Looking back the change to x2.7 for all 3 tank stances was actually part of the 3.2 rebalance along with Paladin going from a x.8 penalty to a x.85.

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Ultimatecalibur, I think you're underselling the devs' data analysis abilities and failing to address the core point. Even if they were to remove attack power from our accessories, leaving us at the supposed*** intended enmity levels, there are enough enmity management tools to make tanking outside of tank stance possible and comfortable. The only non-tank job that can't really control its enmity output is Monk, and you can have a Ninja help them out with that. Enmity as a factor is practically eliminated, because right now the hate lead we have over everyone else is way more than anything given by attack power from right side accessories. This is, of course, for a party that is working together - average Joe Dark Knight or Jimmy Two-Shields might still lose hate to some schmuck who refuses to use Quelling Strikes.

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Not really. Save for Shadewalker (transferring Enmity to a tank which boosts the tank's enmity lead) and Elusive Jump (which halves Dragoon Enmity), all the dps enmity tools do is extend the length of the lead time by a short amount.

Going from a 25% gap to a 12% gap (roughly the difference in the gap for Vit tanks before and after 3.2) between tank/dps enmity generation would turn a 2 min lead into a 4 lead.

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***though I would contest this since they KNOW that progression tanks were using melds or STR accessories even in 2.x. They had to know that the same thing would happen in Heavensward, especially since most bosses hit the tank for less (relatively) than in 2.x. I think it's more likely that they balance enmity around rather poor players in dungeons in order to facilitate a smoother DF experience.

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Knowing players are doing X and not caring that players are doing X because their math says one thing while player created data says another thing is a common mistake devs make and it is only when problems become to visible for them to possibly miss do they go back to reexamine things.

They never even considered that tanks would not be using Vit accessories and only changed things when they realized that Vit accessories were being ignored in Gordias.

Tank Stances allow for higher margins of errors for newer players, undergeared players, players looking to tank large numbers of enemies and those who are less skilled than average (it happens). Tank stances are working exactly as intended and no changes are required.

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Originally Posted by spelley

Tank Stances allow for higher margins of errors for newer players, undergeared players, players looking to tank large numbers of enemies and those who are less skilled than average (it happens). Tank stances are working exactly as intended and no changes are required.

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if tank stance works by desing as you say then is more reasons to change grit and shield on ofgc whitout any requeriment of MP, but they are not, tank stances need to be a request for tanking thats why they are called "tank stance"