Anyone else wish RDM was a PURE support class?

I LOVE THIS MMO AND I AM NOT BITCHING ABOUT ANYTHING

I was hoping RDM would be a PURE support class where they don;t have many and are low dmg abilities but really are good for large groups with their support auras/buffs, kinda like BRD but just more supporty.


maybe thats just e but I don't have any problems being a BUFF bot. I would think its fun.

No. I am glad it's not a support job. Especially considering the last dps job was support.

I know this game is completely different than FFXI (where there were such things as support only)

I guess itll never happen when BRDs were complaining how they weren't doing enough dps even though they were wanted in raids. I don;t believe you can say "the gameplay just wouldn't work with it) I just feel people would que for a pure support class and moan since they arent doing enough "dps"

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Originally Posted by Derio

No. I am glad it's not a support job. Especially considering the last dps job was support.

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I don't believe that is the case anymore

See, if we were to add a "support" role, we would have to change the trinity/triangle to a square of roles, and then re-evaluate what jobs should be in which roles, and create a whole different metric for evaluation and balancing. Currently, we have various roles with support/utility abilities built into them.

Leveling would become a bigger torture. The class will be less useful on its own. If you want to be a buff bot, play bard.

If being even partial support comes at the cost of personal power then a full blown support RDM would be Captain Buffenheimer and the wet noodle sword. If it was engaging enough I guess I dunno. Id think it would be best to wait for the "I wish this was something else" till it actually comes out.

Trying to see what the OF thinks instead of GameFAQs now? I still maintain my stance. No support only classes, they just wouldn't be viable in this plus that's not what a RDM is.

Pure support cannot exist in this game. All classes need DPS in some degree. The base mechanics are defined around for Tank, DPS, healer trinity.

Changing this base will change the game, because a game is defined by their base mechanic.

I like support jobs but it wouldn't work well. If they slotted it in as a DPS people would complain when 2x RDM came up in party configurations. If they made a new slot just for RDM it would require completely rebalancing the entire game. People constantly moaned about the FFXI version of RDM because it was more about buffing and debuffing than fighting. Now we've gone in the opposite direction. I'm cautiously optimistic about how they realise the job for FFXIV.

Red Mage shouldn't be pure anything. That's... not what a red mage does.

as others have mentioned already, a 100% pure support class is not going to work. It's a great concept for group related content (8 man, 24 man) but it would be a big downer in raid environment, daily 4 man dungeons and solo play (msq, job quests etc).

Remember the times brd's lb3 was a raise/heal, and while that was great in certain situations, at the end it was more of a bother then a actual good decision/solution. It's like taking that 3rd healer into titan xtreme or coil back in the day, and while it was a good group composition when it came to safety, the actual dps needed to work much harder, due to the lack of an extra dps at that point.

And while I don't mind going way above and beyond the average people's skill level and group compositions, it leads just to much problems. I personally think that if we would add pure support classes, people would get pretty much bored after a short time. If you are looking at other games that are popular in the last couple of months/years, most have already abandon the trinity system and it's much appreciated by it's consumers. FFXIV still keeping that design, which is not bad but that means, they need to "upgrade" a little bit to keep on parse with other games out there.

oh god no. That would ruin the job.

Are you kidding me?! I'm SOOOO HAPPY it's not support the way it was in FFXI! FINALLY I CAN SAY "HAHAHA!" to all those that wouldn't let me DPS as a RDM! Finally I get my DPS RDM here in this game! I couldn't stand being Support/healer only most of the time which is why I was mostly SMN or NIN. Least I could tank/Play with my avatars lol.

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik

Are you kidding me?! I'm SOOOO HAPPY it's not support the way it was in FFXI! FINALLY I CAN SAY "HAHAHA!" to all those that wouldn't let me DPS as a RDM! Finally I get my DPS RDM here in this game! I couldn't stand being Support/healer only most of the time which is why I was mostly SMN or NIN. Least I could tank/Play with my avatars lol.

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yet RDM were very much needed in FFXI.

But since you were a big time FFXI player, I understand

After Summoner and Dark Knight, I've resigned myself to the knowledge that there will never be a job that is truly faithful to the classics. Black Mage's only use three elements, white mage's come closest but somehow gained the ability to stone enemies to death as opposed to light based spells, like Dia, which would've made sense (and were in the pre-calamity FFXIV).

Red Mage should, arguably, be the ultimate hybrid. Their weapon should be swords, with the ability to both heal and cast black magic spells. They won't be, but that's really the whole point of this. A lot of jobs are just shadows of their namesake. Whatever they come up with will work with the current game meta, so I guess we'll just have to sit tight and wait to see if it's something that we want to play as.

They gotta figure out how to implement proper Support before going for it. I still say the best way they can do it is by simply have 3 Roles for the "Casual" content and 4 Roles for Savage/Extreme content. So if we currently have
Tanks, PLD/WAR/DRK
Healers, SCH/WHM/AST
DPS, NIN/RDM/SAM/DRG/MNK/SMN/BLM/BRD/MCH

They could potentially have it where
Support, BRD/SMN/RDM

Have it where in Savage content they have access to "Off-healer" support and a Raise ability taking the place of the 2 "healer roles" and instead having 1 main healer and 1 support that provides some healing but also buffs the group to help ease the amount of healing needed on top of granting enhancements.

Though I guess if you want to go a step further and just for fun, Create another 5th role, an off-tank roll taken by NIN/SAM/MNK so now you have,

PLD/WAR/DRK
SCH/WHM/AST
BRD/SMN/RDM
NIN/SAM/MNK
BLM/MCH/DRG

Which could potentially add interesting depth to the game for Savage/extreme content cause now you have 1/1/1/1/4 in terms of party composition and each off-tank could have it's own unique abilities to help ease the dmg the tank is taking while also using support abilities to intercept attacks and gaining a perk if they do successfully intercept attacks.

Now this does mean that certain jobs aka BRD/SMN/RDM and NIN/SAM/MNK would need tweaks to their abilities when doing casual or savage/extreme content but if implemented right the added roles allow the devs to create new content that challenges the users, since it's adding 2 new responsibilities.

I just think there is potential to add new challenges to the game but they do have to take risk with party composition and adding new roles for specific content. Much like how POTD uses aetherpool to determine ones strength rather than their actual gear, Savage/Extreme content could be fine tuned to create that extra depth of difficulty by adding more puzzle pieces to the mix for people to figure out which party composition would work best for them.

A pure support RDM wouldn't be a RDM. RDM is jack of all trades, not support.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Red Mage shouldn't be pure anything. That's... not what a red mage does.

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And it is what RDM is in XIV.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

After Summoner and Dark Knight, I've resigned myself to the knowledge that there will never be a job that is truly faithful to the classics. Black Mage's only use three elements, white mage's come closest but somehow gained the ability to stone enemies to death as opposed to light based spells, like Dia, which would've made sense (and were in the pre-calamity FFXIV).

Red Mage should, arguably, be the ultimate hybrid. Their weapon should be swords, with the ability to both heal and cast black magic spells. They won't be, but that's really the whole point of this. A lot of jobs are just shadows of their namesake. Whatever they come up with will work with the current game meta, so I guess we'll just have to sit tight and wait to see if it's something that we want to play as.

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Basically, this.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

After Summoner and Dark Knight, I've resigned myself to the knowledge that there will never be a job that is truly faithful to the classics. Black Mage's only use three elements, white mage's come closest but somehow gained the ability to stone enemies to death as opposed to light based spells, like Dia, which would've made sense (and were in the pre-calamity FFXIV).

Red Mage should, arguably, be the ultimate hybrid. Their weapon should be swords, with the ability to both heal and cast black magic spells. They won't be, but that's really the whole point of this. A lot of jobs are just shadows of their namesake. Whatever they come up with will work with the current game meta, so I guess we'll just have to sit tight and wait to see if it's something that we want to play as.

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What exactly is not faithful with DRK? No cast from HP moves, but there's a couple drain ones, and DRK has always been one of the tankiest jobs.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

What exactly is not faithful with DRK? No cast from HP moves, but there's a couple drain ones, and DRK has always been one of the tankiest jobs.

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As I've always said, give DRK its signature ability, which is to spend HP to deal more damage (the definition of a tank), not the drains, and keep it a tank. Let's see how tanky DRK has always been.

The problem is, what do you even define as support? How does one create a support class in a game such as this that won't already cross into healer or DPS territory? Because the way I see it, the only way to justify shoehorning in a support category in this game would be to take away or greatly diminish utility from already existing healers and DPS in the form of party buffs and debuffs.

The closest things we have to support classes in FFXIV are Bards and Machinist, and both already have the lowest population of players that actually main the classes in the game (much less actually skilled at them - there's a reason why there are ALWAYS raid PFs looking for good Bards and Machinists). On one hand, reclassifying them into a new support category that is actually reflected in dungeon queues would make their queues much faster. But this will also likely result in completely unintended consequences for content design and the community at large (queues for 8/24 man content may take even longer to pop, especially OLDER content).

I dont know about blm either, its traditionally only ever had ice, fire, and bolt, with a few non aspected spells like bio and flare at the time, at least in tactics

Nope as that is not what the Red Mage is.

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Originally Posted by Jetto

I don't believe that is the case anymore

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Suddenly MCH is pure DPS. Things like Dismantle, Rend Mind, Heavy, Bind, Silence, Stun, MP and TP Regen just don't exist.

To be honest, the mindset of pure support classes is just not able to be a thing in a game like XIV. The way fights happen in XIV, means all DPS need to do some form of damage, more than a support class can offer...

The only way support jobs can be a thing right now is if they increase parties and add a necessary support slot, but this brings the issue of balance because all duties will retroactively allow 5/9/27 people when now they only allowed 4/8/24.

For me RDM is a class that does melee dps, can cast white and black magick spells, the perfect jack of all trades, but from what I have heard from the interviews, the FFXIV RDM will be a BLM with a staff + rapier hybrid weapon and will be a dps caster. Aside from the weapon and outfit, one has to wonder if this is a RDM at all....

I guess its too early to worry, I will wait till I hear more from Yoshi-P.

On-topic:

Yes, I wish it was a pure support class or a hybrid DPS/Healer.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Aside from the weapon and outfit, one has to wonder if this is a RDM at all....

I guess its too early to worry, I will wait till I hear more from Yoshi-P.

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F: Some players might have been surprised with the fact that Red Mage will be DPS.
Y: I also have the image of the Red Mage being a hybrid job between Black and White Mage. However, we had to fit it into the FFXIV formula. Otherwise, it might turn out as a job that isn’t too useful. FFXIV is a standalone title in the FF series, so while keeping the essential roots of the Red Mage job in general, it will be unique to XIV, as well. You will see it as a new type of Red Mage.



http://gamerescape.com/2016/12/26/fa...festival-2016/

I personally wouldn't like to see RDM as a pure support job, no more than I want to see it as a pure magic nuking role.

I strongly believe that RDM should be the hybrid it's always been in Final Fantasy. If SE aren't willing to do that in XIV, then I would rather not see RDM... ahem... "reinterpreted" like SMN, BRD, possibly DRK etc have been. I want them to do it right - or don't do it at all!

If, however, I were forced to choose between pure nuking and pure support roles for RDM, I'd think I'd find the support option much more interesting. I definitely understand where the OP is coming from.

Questionably relevant RDM musings

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Originally Posted by Stitches1974

F: Some players might have been surprised with the fact that Red Mage will be DPS.
Y: I also have the image of the Red Mage being a hybrid job between Black and White Mage. However, we had to fit it into the FFXIV formula. Otherwise, it might turn out as a job that isn’t too useful. FFXIV is a standalone title in the FF series, so while keeping the essential roots of the Red Mage job in general, it will be unique to XIV, as well. You will see it as a new type of Red Mage.

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I mean, this is pretty much the essence of it, isn't it. I'm not sure myself and the producer have the same ideas of what RDM's "essential roots" are. Why bother introducing RDM into XIV if it's a "new type of Red Mage", i.e. not Red Mage? I don't want to spend too much time wearing my tin foil hat, but it does feel a bit like they're using really popular job imagery to sell something completely different that people might not otherwise be interested in. I know a lot of people who are excited about it just because it has the Red Mage name and the pimp hat - would they be so interested in the expansion if it was just another generic nuker in both name and execution?

Of course this could all be explained away in the name of innovation, but as I said in a SMN thread a while back, if your car has wings and flies it's not an innovative car - it's something else.

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However, we had to fit it into the FFXIV formula. Otherwise, it might turn out as a job that isn’t too useful.

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I mean, I suppose this could be true, but... it's just all a bit boring this way, you know? Do it right, or don't do it!

Questionably relevant but nonetheless excited babbling about support jobs.

Thing is, I'm very much in favour of support jobs as a general thing. Actual BRD job, stuff like Green Mage - it's all there waiting to be used! I agree that there are a lot of hurdles in the way of implementing a real support job in a heavily restrictive environment like XIV, but I firmly believe it's possible with a bit of creativity.

Pure support jobs are just DD jobs that deal damage by proxy. They just need someone there for them to support, at which point they're (pretty much by definition) perfectly capable of pulling their own weight. If they can't pull their own weight, then they've been designed incorrectly! I mean, an AST giving someone The Balance is responsible for the extra damage dealt - that's theirs, just by proxy. Is there any real reason why a job couldn't be entirely constructed around that concept?

The only difficulty I see for pure support jobs in XIV is the fact that we're expected to solo our main quest. I don't have a problem with that as a paradigm, but it does require some creative workarounds for support jobs - a buffable, but rather lacklustre pet is one good solution. It'd serve the same purpose as Cleric Stance when you're forced to be on your own, and if you made it mediocre enough that buffing real players is always a better option when they're around, it should be golden. Each job could have its own, different "workaround", I'm sure. It seems like 90% of the time we have NPCs with us anyway.

As for the Duty Finder issue, is there any reason why there couldn't be a ruling that only 0 to 1 of the DD jobs in any given matched party was a support job? Then you'd either have the standard composition we have now, or one support job amongst a set of traditional damage dealers. No need for a new party slot that way either, so no extended queue times, and as support jobs tend to be less popular in general than direct damage dealers, you're unlikely to have an overload of them in the queue.

Or you could even give each individual support job its own mechanics for dealing with a "support overload" scenario! Maybe buffing one another's pets, to continue with the previous example. Something nice and creative if possible.

I dunno, there's probably lots of holes in my reasoning, but I really don't feel it's fair to dismiss the idea of pure support jobs out of hand. I think it's much more fun to think about it and theorise!

BRD, MCH, and SCH would need to be classed as Support as well, then. But since our system only allow for Tank, Heal, DPS, please look forward to it.

*EDIT*
Or how about changing BRD's and MCH's Limit Break 3 to gives an increase to all attributes, HP Regen, MP, Regen, TP Regen, Skill Speed, Spell Speed, Attack Speed.

i would have liked to see Red Mage as a healer class, because healers are the only role wich can switch between offensive and healing magic. on top of that the sword for meele attacks to further establish him as damage / heal hybrid class wich could hopefully replace Scholar.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Leveling would become a bigger torture. The class will be less useful on its own. If you want to be a buff bot, play bard.

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But that comes with people bashing you for doing more support than dps.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

I like support jobs but it wouldn't work well. If they slotted it in as a DPS people would complain when 2x RDM came up in party configurations. If they made a new slot just for RDM it would require completely rebalancing the entire game. People constantly moaned about the FFXI version of RDM because it was more about buffing and debuffing than fighting. Now we've gone in the opposite direction. I'm cautiously optimistic about how they realise the job for FFXIV.

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My RDM was a main healer. I wasn't asked to buff/debuff until after Zilart released.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

*EDIT*
Or how about changing BRD's and MCH's Limit Break 3 to gives an increase to all attributes, HP Regen, MP, Regen, TP Regen, Skill Speed, Spell Speed, Attack Speed.

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Would actually like this, but extend it to LB1 and 2 too. As it currently is, the BRD/MCH LB is completely inferior in every way to caster LB (why is it that the easier to aim LB also happens to inflict 10% more damage than the harder to aim one?), but this also lets you use carryover LB (for things other than using a ranged/caster LB to shave off 2-3% of the next boss' HP) before fights that would normally wipe the LB bars at the very start.

Maybe make it so that...

LB1: Increases all attributes by 10% and critical hit rate by 5%
LB2: Increases all attributes by 15% and critical hit rate by 10%
LB3: Increases all attributes by 20%, critical hit rate by 15%, and all abilities on cooldown are automatically reset

(No HP/MP/TP regen because that's healer LB territory)

I wish it was a healer with lots of support like astrologian.

But I understand we needed another caster and red mage fits the role well.

Regardless of the job if SE were to add a pure support class I see it as a endgame class only and would only unlock after you reach lvl cap. Let's say you beat stormblood story and are currently at lvl 70, you the player would gain access to the support class. This would bypass the need to lvl up a pure support class with limited dps skills and remain a endgame only class.

What do you all think?

as stated before my expectations arent too high, the video shows just about what id expectn all they really need to do is give it a respectable heal, maybe raise, maybe a refresh you can toss on the healerm and itd be probably as close as youd get from a non dedicated/forced to be healer. its very possible at this point that physik is going to go bye bye for blm, so i hope the heal is decent if they do get one

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Originally Posted by Donaria

Regardless of the job if SE were to add a pure support class I see it as a endgame class only and would only unlock after you reach lvl cap. Let's say you beat stormblood story and are currently at lvl 70, you the player would gain access to the support class. This would bypass the need to lvl up a pure support class with limited dps skills and remain a endgame only class.

What do you all think?

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Im not entirely sure if that would happen. However this cross role system might shift things more to role to allow a support to maybe happen. For instance most dps have some raid support, however if they remove that from them(making it easier to choose say a monk for instance for raid compositions) they would have some skill set to implement a supporter type. Currently though, if they dont do this and keep dps as is, it would be difficult

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Originally Posted by Tint

further establish him as damage / heal hybrid class wich could hopefully replace Scholar.

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Why replace us?

The thing is, pure support wouldn't really work in this game due to a big focus on a DPS meta, and I am of the firm belief that RDM will bring a heavy support toolkit much like BRD and MCH.

I do also agree with Yoshi Ps stance, and what they did with the job:

Yoshi: So for the Red Mage, and when we were talking about how will we make Red Mage fit into the realm of [FFXIV], there was actually a very heated debate about what role it should be.

Of course, there’s the element of using the rapier to do close range attacks, there’s also the element of magic, and that’s more of a ranged thing. There were discussion about do we have to start considering hybrid jobs, or do we just go the other way and make it a healer. Yoshida-san felt that no matter which route they took, it might differ from what players imagined a Red Mage would be.

http://twinfinite.net/2017/03/ffxiv-...view-pax-east/

Holy trinity reigns supreme until you allow more than 5 man groups. Here's why:

Tank-Healer-DPS-DPS has two DPS, tank DPS, and healer DPS.

If you did Tank-Healer-DPS-Support. The Support has to buff himself, the other DPS, the Healer, and the Tank enough to justify that lost full DPS. Sounds simple. But what happens in a raid with Tank-Healer-Healer-DPS-DPS-DPS-DPS-DPS? The amount he buffs that by will go up multiplicatively.

In EQ/EQ2, they DO have support roles. But they utilize a 6 man group. Tank-Healer-Support-x-x-x. I say X because they have hybrids along with DPS. The size of the group and ways support do their role allows them to double up on support. For example a bard and enchanter will both buff each other to DPS level Damage capability.

This is why BRD/MCH buffs and debuffs are somewhat limited. Its to allow for 2x BRD or 2x MCH, or BRD and MCH groups to work. Say a RDM did entirely support. Now imagine if 2x RDM would buff each other (through unique buffs) to do enough buffs to allow them BLM/SMN damage. Now place two RDM in a raid with 2 BLM and a SMN and watch the crazy output.

To put it shortly, group size of 4 doesn't mesh well unless its the only group size available.

Lets explore it a bit further. Lets just say its a consequence we'll just account for. Just up the boss HP on 8-24 man content. Yeah... what happens when you don't get that RDM in the queue for a trial roulette? That consequence we just accounted for just shot us in the foot. We could go further and force a support to show up in each queue to ensure its always there. Well.. thats another way to screw with queue times.

No.. the best balance is to have a support do its role in a way that it always works whether its there or not. And maybe slightly better (by 5-10%) there then not to encourage but not require flexibility in classes.

What I'd like to see is an 8 man group be the standard for dungeons. This would allow support to thrive as a new role. As well as quicken DPS queues at the same time. Killing two birds with one stone.

What I wish is what I was hoping rdm would be a melee caster. I think we could really use one of those in this game.