Could Hydelan be a threat? [Spoilers]

this has been bugging me since 3.2 but could hydelan be a blessing but also something to watch out for. Don't get me wrong i don't think of Her/it as a villian just not perfectly good entity.

For starters take the fact she split the world into the source + 13 shades when she removed Zodiark she then had to divide her aether and her attention between all worlds this severly crippled her ability to be able to protect each world properly.

This ofc lead to 1 world being consumed by darkness and becoming the void and in 3.4 she clearly (at least in English) did not pay attention to the warriors of darkness world being consumed by Light till they themselves had to say to the word of the mother.

in 2.55 when it was just you and minfilia she spoke to Minfilia now this is very foreboding as this is how Minfilia became the word of the mother. Depending on what Hydelan said depends on how badly i personally view her;
1. she told her everything so Minfilia knew exactly what she was doing giving up her life (comitting suicide) to serve as Hydelan's voice
2. Told her to go back and nothing more so Minfilia gave her life without knowing she was doing so
Personally to me neither paints Hydelan in a pretty picture even though she did it out of necessity to continue talking to us and presumably other people with the echo but it also begs questions has she done this before or will she need to do it again in the future if 3.4 is an indication then hopefully not.

Sorry if seems a bit long winded but i was just wondering if others percieve Hydelan differently than before based on HW. Also sorry if any misspellings or number oversights kinda early and still in bed :p

I'm about as "Team Hydaelyn" as it gets, but I'll try to keep my bias in check here, lol.

Yes; in some ways more than others, She can be thought of as less-than-implicitly-trustworthy. She is one of two diametrically opposed extremes that seems to have resulted from the will(s) of the aetherial sea drifting apart. When either of these wills interfere with the world, the balance is tipped. When the balance tips too far, nothing good can come of it—even if the Light is the victor.

A summary for the sake of establishing my point of view:

If the story we've been told is accurate, Zodiark was the first to threaten the balance—by taking too much power and threatening Hydaelyn. By expelling Him to/as the moon, she robbed Him of His power to influence the world(s) and His place in the sea. Incidentally, this stress on the cosmos shattered it into the original world and thirteen copies of it.

Since this time, He has been using the Ascians to exert His influence, destabilizing worlds with Chaos and Darkness in order to weaken the boundaries that exist between them in order to Rejoin the shattered pieces and resurrect Himself with their aether.

Elidibus keeps the Ascians from going too far. The black-robed Ascians are blinded by their lust for power and Zodiark's favor to the point that they will undermine one another and let an entire world be lost to a Flood of Darkness (which will create a void that Zodiark cannot use to empower Himself).

Until recently, Hydaelyn had no such emissary, which meant that Her own champions could pull an Ascian move and zealously keep on tilting things towards Light unchecked—believing they were doing the right thing—until the Flood destroyed them all. I'm surprised it took this long for The First to happen (unless She'd previously held back for this very reason but could no longer take the risk having lost this much).

So yes, Her efforts for self-preservation and the protection of Her children are less than measured, and in that sense we can't rely on her implicitly. Now, do the ends justify the means? We've been led to assume so. We've been led to assume that a world dominated by Zodiark would have no place for mortals at all. A world where mortals are "merely" at risk and continually struggling seems preferable for the time being.

The reason I keep faith with Her is because all of Her actions have been as far as we know reactionary. If Zodiark didn't threaten the balance, if Zodiark didn't send the Ascians, if the Ascians weren't threatening the existence of entire dimensions, She seems perfectly content to sit in sea and do nothing. During the Astral Eras, when the Dark sat idly by and let the world recover to the point that it could be coerced into throwing itself into chaos on a level required for Calamity once more, She did nothing but let Her children thrive.

At this point, there's just too much suggesting that She's the only one who'd have our backs in a fight, the only one who'd sit by and let Her children control the reins of history in their (as I've grown to refer to it) beautifully broken and balanced cosmos.

However, anything could upend this point of view. There's much we haven't seen.

From this point on is a tangential digression.

I'm hoping that Elidibus is the true bad guy here. He is the closest thing to Zodiark's actual will that we have, and he is a master of manipulating your point of view so he seems reasonable and justified and not a threat to your greatest interests. However, he does this not only by providing information that confirms it, but withholding information to the contrary. If we had nothing to fear on the greatest scales, he wouldn't be hiding his greater ambitions on the tiers just below them, in my humble opinion.

Also imho, in order to keep the story interesting until the end, Zodiark either has to be more than we've been led to believe, or He has to be undermined. It would be interesting to see that Zodiark simply has a different point of view about how life should manifest, given that he is associated with soul just as much as Hydaelyn is associated with the planet ("the star"). In this case, Elidibus would be finally vindicated in his assertion that he just wants to put things back how they were—the Sea would be rejoined, the world would be made whole, the binary would be brought back to center, the war would end. However, every time Elidibus speaks of this, there's a slyness about it that I don't trust at all. He didn't even pretend that mortals would make it through this transition back to the cosmos's original form, and that's just for starters.

Therefore, I'd prefer that Zodiark truly was everything we've been led to believe (though perhaps they could make us falsely doubt our instincts on that and question whether the above were the "right" thing to do). What I'd like to see is Elidibus come to terms with that. I'd like to see Elidibus realize that Zodiark is an active threat equal to Hydaelyn's reactionary threat and give himself wholly over to the Dark's lust for control and determination by usurping the entire plan. I'd like to see Elidibus attempt to rejoin all of the worlds, destroy everything that is, including both crystals, and reboot the entire cosmos as a healthy, newborn Genesis in his own image. Who could blame him? ... But for the sake of everything we are and everything we've fought for, he'd have to be stopped.

This would fulfill both Final Fantasy XIV's desire to on the deepest level be Good versus Evil, Light versus Darkness like the classic Final Fantasy titles, without being so simple. It also allows XIV to continue the ambiguity whereby Light = Good / Darkness = Evil is incidental. Hydaelyn just happens to be the one with our backs, not because Light is Good. Some past titles, as well, have had the truest evils be neither inherently light or dark.

You're about to be Anonymoosed.

And i'm very grateful for the discussion as to me Hydelan has been questionable as of late to the point where if there was someone else with as strong an echo as Minfilia could she get them to willing give up their life essence to preserve more aether for communication (atm i don't think it will based on 3.4 with the word of the mother going to the warriors of darkness world to counterbalance the overflowing light).
I do however think between Hydelan/WoL and Zodiark/Ascians Hydelan is definitely the greater sense of good and that since she is a flawed being it makes her more interesting within the story

Ty for the reply Annoymoose ^^ and i rightly agree that its odd that Hydelan waited until Minfilia to have a 1st envoy especially given that there has been WoLs in the past

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Ty for the reply Annoymoose ^^

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Lore campfires are love, lore campfires are life.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

and i rightly agree that its odd that Hydelan waited until Minfilia to have a 1st envoy especially given that there has been WoLs in the past

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There is no precedent or reason to think this, really, but I think it'd be fun if she did. Imagine if (when mortals were first created) She empowered emissaries to guide and protect them, but that the inherent battle within every person to fight their own internal darkness flawed those chosen from the get-go. Perhaps those chosen mortals raised unto godly status did more harm than good; neither the Mother nor Her children are perfect, after all.

It would not only fall right in line with Hydaelyn (and mortals) occasionally making mistakes, but it would have given Her reason to try to play it safe—to handicap Herself in Her own war by being conservative. A chosen set of potentials to receive the Echo. A chosen subset of those who answered the call. A chosen subset of those to give more power. A chosen one to be Her champion.

Perhaps there were a few such beings that had to be prevented from interacting with the planet any longer. Perhaps... twelve.

But, again, that's likely way too far out from the known to be anywhere near accurate, lol.

She is definitely imperfect but then again, the entire situation is. I don't think this situation is her preferred outcome. Infact I think she has for the most part just been trying to keep things afloat in what has been for her a mostly losing battle. After all its hardly surprising she couldn't respond to the WoD when she could barely contact her chosen champion. More to the point, she seems to be very limited in how she can interact with the world. They way she says it in 3.4 makes me suspect that both she and Zodiark have to work through proxies.

I actually wonder if her whole 'look, think, feel' is her attempt to push her children to find an answer for themselves since she herself doesn't have a perfect solution. Unlike her, her children exist with both light and dark. Our role as the WoL isn't to simply beat the Ascians but to find a stable solution.

Regardless she doesn't seem to want dominance as much as balance and all our interactions with her show her as benevolent. Even with Minfilia, Minfilia stated that she gave herself willingly to be Hydealyn's voice.

I kinda wondered this ever since the strange vision in 2.0 showing the purple crystal. I wouldn't be surprised if the mothercrystal was merely the means for the aetherial sea to communicate, and it could conceivably change hands in the right circumstances.

Ultimately, both Hydelyn and Zodiark are the result of a fractured realm.

The whole deal with the Rejoining frequently makes me think back to the overarching plot of Rise of the Zilart and Chains of Promathia in FFXI. That setting, too, took place on a world that had transitioned from one state ("Paradise", supposedly) to another (Vana'diel as we knew it) and there were villains plotting to return it to it's original, natural state (which would come at the explicit cost of pretty much wiping out all the non-Zilarts on the planet). The benevolent deity in that setting, Altana, was clearly a flawed being as well, pretty much eternally aching over the loss of her lover and only peer, Promathia. In spite of her sorrows, though, she clearly showed concern for the inhabitants of Vana'diel, and on rare occasions directly intervened to assist them.

Hydaelyn, too, seems to have the best of intentions, but is clearly limited in power and showing signs of becoming mighty desperate. That desperation COULD lead to her making some nasty decisions - again, still with the best of intentions, but nasty nonetheless. Minfillia's conversion could be one such desperate move. She's also a whole lot more hands-on than Altana generally was.

The Ascians clearly seem to believe that they're firmly in control. Pretty much every interaction with them shows them as being confident and patient (well, up until the moment they die, at which point they tend to be rather flabbergasted and panicked). As far as they're concerned, the Rejoining is right on schedule, and not only is there little we can do to stop it, but we're mostly just helping them along. Their confidence and Hydaelyn's desperation pretty much leads me to believe that the Ascians really ARE winning this war, and that's going to be pushing Hydaelyn ever closer to the Godzilla Threshold where pretty much ANY measure is acceptable compared to what will happen if she loses.

I think we can trust that Hydaelyn is on our side, but she's starting to have to scale back her expectations from "save all my children" to "save whomever I can". This may lead her to start making some "needs of the many" choices, which are rarely pretty.

And, just to play Devil's Advocate here... Do recall that Ifrit, upon finding that we could not be tempered, immediately jumped to the conclusion that we already HAD been tempered (though he admitted he couldn't sense another's "taint" upon us). This has lead some to speculate that Hydaelyn's blessing is actually a form of tempering, and that we don't really have any choice except to support her. I don't personally buy into that theory, but if true could be yet another sign of Hydaelyn's desperation.

While it was an act of self-preservation, the fact that Hydaelyn's Emissary (Minfilia) was able to stop Ardvard's body from harming her in such a way has me a little bit concerned. Compared to Elidibus simply blasing Minfilia upon their 1st meeting, Hydaelyn's emissary is shown to control one's body against their will.

If anything, Hydaelyn can be a threat if the WoL decide that the world don't need Her and Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by myahele

While it was an act of self-preservation, the fact that Hydaelyn's Emissary (Minfilia) was able to stop Ardvard's body from harming her in such a way has me a little bit concerned. Compared to Elidibus simply blasing Minfilia upon their 1st meeting, Hydaelyn's emissary is shown to control one's body against their will.

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Is she controlling his body against his will or just overpowering him on her own? The closer his axe gets to her, the more the swing slows down, and a little particle effect comes up around his forearms like he's pitifully trying to swing through a cloud of aether that's dragged him to a halt, or as if she's externally holding his arms "telekinetically" via aether for a moment ("Magic"). Is it so different from the handcuffs of Darkness Nabriales used, or even Arbert's own binding-chain magicks?

This is a something that gets brought up and I've rewatched that scene several times in response but I don't see it. Every time it just seems like Minfila is using "regular" physical magic to stop the attack and not mind control. If Hydaelyn could exert that level of control over a Warrior of Light (say for arguments sake she can only do so if a WoL is in the Aetherial Sea) then why didn't she stop the entire WoD plot line from happening the first place? From my understanding the WoD would have had to pass through the Sea to enter our world. If she must have the Blessing evoked and an Emissary as well that's a really convoluted and specific set of circumstances. Say she only needs an Emissary. If Emissaries can control the "lower ranks" why is Elidibus at odds with so many of the Ascian overlords?

People keep wanting to equate the Echo with Tempering/loss of will but none of the Echo users in the game give any indication that they are being controlled or coerced to act in their respective Crystal's interest: not the Ascians, not the WoD, not Unukalhai, not Minfilia and not the WoL. In fact, Elidibus seems pretty certain if we knew what he knew (but can never seem to spit out, or say why he won't) we would be on Zodiark's side. Ohhh here is a thought: we've had several WoL "switch sides" as it were, how about a rogue Ascian that helps out the Scions?

At this point I think that we are headed towards solution that will impact Hydaelyn as much as Zodiark, but I think she would be accepting of that so long as it enables her children to survive. Hydaelyn's not a perfect omniscient and benevolent goddess--good. Elidibus may have a valid point--good. All these elements make for a better story and fun threads on the lore forums. :) As much as I love FFX, however, I don't think that Hydaelyn is secretly Yu Yevon.

To throw my two cents into the ring:

I do not think Hydaelyn is a threat, or evil. However, something people need to consider before passing moral judgment on the goddess is that She sees things very differently from us, so dissonance between what we believe is right or okay is to be expected.

Hydaelyn looks at the big picture. The big big picture. Zodiark threatened to upset the balance between Light and Dark, and will do so again if fully resurrected. As a result, She will do anything to prevent that from happening. We, as Her children, will all perish if Zodiark is revived. Therefore supporting Hydaelyn's goals is directly beneficial to us as well. At the same time, however, Hydaelyn likely sees individuals as expendable and, remorsefully or otherwise, will throw one or two onto the pyre if it means forestalling or preventing Zodiark's resurrection. "What is one life?" and all that, y'know?

Now, what about Minfilia? Well... unless there's clarification, Hydaelyn called her up to get swept into Flow and dumped into the aetherial sea. The goddess then had no more strength to say anything or teleport Minfilia away, leading to Minfilia offering herself up for the pyre. Was Hydaelyn aware this would be the end result? Perhaps, perhaps not. I'm inclined to believe She did know (a freaking goddess should be able to know her own limitations!), but that's just my skeptical nature at work.

Us? We were essentially conscripted to be Her agent in the mortal world - Her sword and shield to fight back the Dark and keep the Light shining. While the DRK 30-50 line suggests we might not be entirely willing, at the end of the day we have little choice in the matter; even if we did turn our backs on the goddess, as outlined above doing nothing will lead to the Dark's victory and the extinguishing of all mortal life as we know it. Even if we aren't interested in supporting Hydaelyn's aims, we have to do so - for self-preservation, if nothing else. A Guardians of the Galaxy "I'm saving this planet because I'm one of the bastards who lives on it!" deal, even if you don't want to fight for Hydaelyn the goddess.

All that said I'm still wary of trusting Her precisely because of the dissonance between mortal and god values, as well as pissed She seemed to call up Minfilia for no apparent reason but eating her. (I might not have liked Minfilia, but that doesn't mean I wanted her gone or dead!)

When Hydaelyn took Minfillia as her voice it had been when Yhotsla or how ever it's spelled had used forbidden magics to transport herself and thancred out of those caverns to escape and stop thier pursuers that granted Hydaelyn the oppertunity to pull Minfillia body and soul to her. That is why Minfillia stayed behind sending the WoL ahead to continue so she could stay within range of yhostla's spell to go to hydaelyn's side, perhaps Hydaelyn had never gotten that oppertunity before thus in a sense creating the first ascian of light.

I haven't looked much at any of the lore but on a whim....

Maybe the white robbed ascian's are of both and light darkness created by Hydaelyn and Zodiark together. When Zodiark started to tip the balance towards straight darkness perhaps that's when he had created the black robbed ascian's that are driven solely by his dark will.

Granted Hydelan could be seeing the bigger picture and i actually think she is stuck between a rock and a hard place with does she act or does she bide her time what would be best for the stability of the world but what she may consider necessary (if she did tell minfilia to go bck) with taking someone's life aether to me is wrong ( obviously opinion so not basing hard fact about it) especially since we see the effect on her adoptive mother (forgot how to spell her name lol) But this makes me like Hydelan more as a character (not the character itself) since she seems almost like a mortal just with god like power.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

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Well since 2.0 ending there has been a great question remaining and that is the Vision of a Dark Hydaelyn.

We have yet to learn the true meaning behind that vision and so far SE has avoided giving us a answer even a small hint to a answer.

Forgive the reference to other material, but the question reminds me of the Vorlons and Shadows from Babylon 5 - the Vorlons are "good" because their desires seem in line with the majority of civilizations and the Shadows are "evil" because their desires are to create chaos and war. But both races have the same base desire of encouraging the younger races to develop .. they just have completely opposite approaches.

To speak against Hydaelyn in terms of preserving the First - if the First is lost to the Flood then Hydaelyn loses the aether there. It's in Her best interest to prevent it from it from being lost completely .. and also possibly in her best interests to let it *almost* get wiped out since then there is less likelihood of the Ascians gaining a foothold there.

Ultimately, like in Babylon 5, I think the best interests of the mortals is not with either side but in keeping them balanced against each other.

I see Hydie as something akin to a sun. In our earth orbit, it's fine, but if it's any bigger, it scorches us like the realm where everything was turning into too much light. Too small, and we freeze. I'd suppose it'd be like having too much darkness.

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Originally Posted by Sagittarian

Forgive the reference to other material...

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There's nothing to forgive, at least as far as I'm concerned. I love the lore of FFXIV in general because it takes inspiration from East Asian traditions that I identify more strongly with than the stark, good-versus-evil worldview of Biblical cosmology.

Anonymoose wrote that "classic Final Fantasy" is about "light versus darkness...without being so simple". I'll go one further and point out that "darkness", as it's presented in the franchise, is usually driven by apparently nihilistic villains who want to return the world to an original, perfect form, where the differences between good and evil, light and darkness don't matter any more.

This concept of perfection is drawn from the East Asian/Buddhist concept of "mu" ( 無 ), which literally means "nothingness". I've personally encountered a number of pastors — typically those from charismatic or evangelical denominations — who vehemently attack this idea as fatalistic and depressing, as it goes against the message of hope and salvation through Christ. This, unfortunately, stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of 無.

I find it easiest to explain the concept through Zen Buddhism, where achieving 無 is essentially about nullifying one's ego. The ego is what pushes us to strive for material gain — more wealth, high status, a beautiful wife or handsome husband, and so on — even though it's all ultimately futile, as all things are doomed to die and fade away.

But we can't help ourselves, because we're only mortal, and we're tricked by our base senses into believing that more worldly possessions will make us happy, when in fact everything is but a chain that's weighing us down and preventing us from ascending.

Buddha's great idea for transcending the pain and suffering of mortal existence is to give up all worldly desires, and hence achieve Nirvana, the state of "perfect quietude, freedom, and highest happiness", where we're finally freed from the endless cycle of death and rebirth.

And that, essentially, is what 無 is. It is perfection. Perfect stillness, where there is no more difference between light and dark, beauty and ugliness. There is no more contrast, no more need of comparison (you have more, I have less, therefore I'm miserable). All is one, and there will be eternal peace, as there's no further need to strive. You will have fundamentally accepted that the end is the same: It always ends in nothing.

Could this be the paradise that the Ascians (especially Elidibus) are after? I like to think it's a facet of what they're aiming for. On the one hand, it involves destroying everything we cherish, but on the other hand, it's for a bigger, perhaps loftier, goal.

From this perspective, is Hydaelyn a help or hindrance? Go mull on it. It's fun. ;)

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

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That was a very interesting read...In this case. Hydelyns claims that Zodiark "sought more power" and thus was banished, yet it is also Hydelyn who is attached to the living, a situation that causes more demands as the living, particularly the sentient, seek power. Yet Hydelyn does not banish them...

By not doing so(give or take a few calamities), would that be part and parcel of Zodiark's success? The triumph of desiring more, as opposed to being content?

The tie-in to Nirvana is interesting; it would explain why Elidibus seemed to think that we'd be totally on board with the Asicans if only we "knew the truth". (Not, of course, that he's willing to, you know, share any details of this supposed "truth" with us, but hey, that might tie in to the whole enlightenment thing: you can't really grant enlightenment, but can sometimes help others discover it for themselves.)

However, it's also interesting that when Final Fantasy games DO dip into the "return to perfection" trope, it's typically the BAD GUYS who are all for it. Kinda makes me wonder if the writers have a beef with Buddhism. Or, perhaps, it's just that they want to show the baddies as being sympathetic, that their goals are ultimately good, but their methods (and the necessary price to achieve that goal) are not.

If we accept the Rejoining as an objectively good phenomenon, but one for which Hydaelyn has decided that the price is too high, on a macro scale it paints her as kind of a bleeding heart, unwilling to do what must be done just for the sake of a few inconsequential life forms.

Ascians: All right, Hydaelyn, quit your whining. You know we have to do this. It's the way things were supposed to be.
Hydaelyn: I don't wanna! It'll hurt all these poor creatures!
Ascians: There wouldn't even BE any creatures if you hadn't mucked everything up to begin with.
Hydaelyn: I don't care! They're here now, and they don't deserve to be killed.
Ascians: Ridiculous. Fine, we'll do it without your help.

Of course, as one of those inconsequential life forms myself, I tend to favor Hydaeyln's side of the argument. :)

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

However, it's also interesting that when Final Fantasy games DO dip into the "return to perfection" trope, it's typically the BAD GUYS who are all for it. Kinda makes me wonder if the writers have a beef with Buddhism. Or, perhaps, it's just that they want to show the baddies as being sympathetic, that their goals are ultimately good, but their methods (and the necessary price to achieve that goal) are not.

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Well... There ARE two opposing (not really "opposing", as they're actually combined in many, if not most, cases... but certainly very different) major religions in Japan. I've also noted several potential references to Shinto within this game: the concept of primals and their strength being based off of their worshipers being one major connection, not to mention the beast tribe coming in 4.0 that literally worships Kami and reveres one of the major Kami as their god (Susano). >< With an East Asian themed expansion coming, I'm actually pretty excited to see what else I can pick up on.

In Shinto, the concept of Nirvana doesn't really exist, and nature is seen as being beautiful and divine the way it is. What the Ascians are striving to do would, presumably, wipe out all life as we know it, destroying all creation in favor of this perfect "nothingness". Struggle and competition are part of nature, constant striving and such "mortal contrivances" are a part of the human experience. The concept of the Buddhist Nirvana implies that human imperfections are a bad thing, something to be transcended and overcome, something that is, essentially, miserable. Shinto doesn't necessarily think that: in fact, the major Kami themselves have many human characteristics (like many gods of many different pantheons) that probably wouldn't fly according to the concept of Nirvana, and it could be argued that many of these "imperfections" are seen as a good thing that shapes the spirit and makes it unique, and thus beautiful.

So it COULD be possible that maybe we are seeing references from opposing representations of two different prominent religious influences in Japan. That said, it might also help if we knew a bit more about life before Hydaelyn expelled Zodiark... Do we know much about it at all? Did it exist as we know it, in any way, shape or form? Do we know EXACTLY what will happen if the Rejoining were to take place? (I'm assuming not, since there is still plenty of time and plenty of mystery surrounding the Ascians and Zodiark in general.)