Why yes Virginia, you can sue RMTs...
We all know that RMT and their bots are a significant and negative threat to our game. Just the mere fact that related permanent account bans averaging up to 25,000 a week seem to be a regular thing is enough to tell us that.
Until now, the common wisdom is that SE can't really do much to sue these people to stop them. I believe that may have changed, or at least the common wisdom may have to be adjusted.
The folks behind League of Legends won $10 million in a case against a bot/cheating service called "LeagueSharp", in addition to granting Riot (LoL creators) control over LeagueSharps websites.
See the links;
Gamezone story about LoL suing LeagueSharp
Engadget story about the lawsuit.
It seems that RIOT may have got creative and used the Digital Millenium copyright Act to sue because there was circumvention of the digital protection of their software.
It may not be possible for SE to use the same grounds against the various RMT organizations that plague us, but this does show that it's possible for game operators and creators to go after these parasites.
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03-07-2017, 02:55 AMKosmos992kOne for the books - YES. Yes, you can sue RMTs for cheating and 'bots!
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03-07-2017, 03:05 AMRufalus
This makes sense because hacks alter the product into something it was not designed to be and damage the experience of paying customers. Unauthorised tools which disrupt our immersion and create an unfair play environment severely impact our enjoyment of the product.
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03-07-2017, 03:08 AMVaer
Blizzard has also gone after botmakers in the past and won against two different ones.
Jagex (Runescape) is another big one.
Also a couple years back during FFXI, SE also took down a bot service called FFXIApp, it was way more prominent though.
It probably just costs too much in legal fees to make this viable for all companies. Probably depends on where this bot service originates from as well so they can mental gymnastics some kind of loophole. -
03-07-2017, 03:17 AMKosmos992kCosts can be awarded in lawsuits also...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaer
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03-07-2017, 03:18 AMVaerRight but sometimes they have to try multiple times to jam it though, appealing losses etc, like Blizzard had to attempt a bunch of times before they won against their more recent one. All those costs add up that could be spent elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmos992k
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03-07-2017, 03:39 AMKosmos992kIt's a business decision, how much business do you lose due to the negative impact of the bots and RMT services vs the potential costs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaer
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03-07-2017, 03:40 AMCabalabob
SE thinking: pay millions to lawyers to take down an RMT company? Or, let RMT continue to pay a sub fee to us which makes lazy people who use RMT continue to pay a sub fee to us?
Patch notes: RMT fix- all RMT tells will now start with "and now a word from our sponsors!". -
03-07-2017, 05:42 AMLineageRazorProbably not as much as you think. Case in point: YOU clearly hate RMT a great deal. And yet, you are still subscribed, and still play the game. I, too, am not fond of RMT, but they'd have to get a WHOLE lot worse before I'd consider quitting the game because of them. And yet, you think there are enough other players who hate RMT enough to actually go through with it and unsubscribe, that it would balance against a multi-million dollar lawsuit which may or may not succeed, and may or may not recoup losses even if it does succeed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmos992k
It's nice to see examples working out, but I sure don't fault SE for not being the ones to trailblaze this kind of thing. They're being sensibly cautious; SE has made some notoriously bad business decisions in the past, after all. Once suing RMT becomes routine, with lots of legal precedents, SE will start to follow suit, but I wouldn't expect to see it before then.
Even if it works, though - is this going to work against the Chinese? While not all RMT are Chinese, enough are that it's flat out become a stereotype. If I'm not mistaken, a company based in Japan has no legal rights to sue anyone in China. -
03-07-2017, 06:03 AMMalzianI hate to burst a bubble here, but I feel that I need to clarify a point that's generally forgotten with things like this...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmos992k
The only reason that Riot was able to sue LeagueSharp for this is because companies are based in the United States where the DMCA is in effect. Both Riot and LeagueSharp are US entities and, while it has a subsidiary in the US, Square-Enix is at its root a Japanese company. This means that it doesn't really have the same standing to file a suit like this in the US, also since many of the RMTs and GoldFarming organizations aren't based here either. This may be good legal precedent for US based companies like Blizzard and what-not to purse issues, but it doesn't help SE out since they're not an American company and have to go through the Japanese system instead. As pointed out below...
And nope, they do not.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
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03-07-2017, 06:07 AMAirgethttp://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...688955aeff4da4 that's why this happens on a near weekly basis? It's really annoying that people think SE does nothing about RMT. They clearly take the time to notify the playerbase of banning notices that take place due to RMT activity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
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03-07-2017, 06:10 AMRisvertasashi
The problem is the success stories are usually from companies based in first world Western countries. Yes, they might set up shell companies (like the league botters), but they can still be gone after. For everyone else in the middle of Nowhere, China or Bumf***, Thailand, there's not really much that can be done.
What can be done, SE is doing. Last few times I looked they were banning over 20,000 accounts at a time. That's a lot of RMT shutdown. (But as long as people are willing to pay, there will be more...) -
03-07-2017, 06:13 AMPintsizedThis is no the first by any means, Blizzard won against Starcraft bot makers and also private servers .. the problem is fining an RMT outfit that you can sue, and most of the big FF RMT is China-based, with little to no interest in letting them being sued.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmos992k
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03-07-2017, 06:27 AMKosmos992kNo bubble to burst. And as I said...Quote:
Originally Posted by Malzian
...so not forgotten in this case.Quote:
It seems that RIOT may have got creative and used the Digital Millenium copyright Act to sue because there was circumvention of the digital protection of their software.
It may not be possible for SE to use the same grounds against the various RMT organizations that plague us, but this does show that it's possible for game operators and creators to go after these parasites.
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03-07-2017, 06:48 AMDaikiKiyoshiQuote:
Originally Posted by Airget
Assuming of course that they really are banning those accounts and not making up fake reports to appease the player base that cares. I'm not so cynical as to think that is really the case but it's not entirely impossible. The number of accounts SE continues to ban on a weekly basis for RMT and the fact that there are still so many RMT in the game just goes to show how little effect SE can really have though. They may be able to slow the advance but it seems to be a battle of attrition with no end in sight. In all likelihood RMT will plague this game until the servers shut down. -
03-07-2017, 06:55 AMNicodemus_Mercy
If it were up to me... as rmt/bots are discovered, I would surreptitiously transfer them to a special server just for rmt/bots. As far as the UI shows, they are still on their original server, but in reality they've all been corralled together in one place to spew their rmt messages at each other rather than us. They can delete and remake their bots all they like but they will just be advertising to their competition. All the while, they are paying a sub. Seems like poetic justice to me.
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03-07-2017, 06:58 AMMalzianFair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmos992k
/10char -
03-07-2017, 07:07 AMCulfinrandir
I've said this before as there's other legal precedent but always got shot down or laughed at. If SE really want to go after someone using hacking tools they *do* have the legal ability to do so.
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03-07-2017, 10:40 AMMwynnI don't think RMT Accounts pay for Gametime actually, they're rather short-lived and live through the 30-Free Day they have, obtained through their Stolen A Realm Reborn Key Codes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
Why we have that many of them? Stolen Credit Cards, Stolen Accounts, Cheap Key Codes obtainable on dubious Sites and all that stuff.
What I simply assume is once a Key is frauded, be it Gametime Cards or Key Codes to unlock the Base Game, the System will flag those Accounts that has been registered with those and will ban these shortly after.
In the case of a frauded Gametime Card, they will take back the Days off the Account and the Account will face a Ban.
So pretty much those RMT Companies rather use the first thirty Days for their Advantage not to pay to actually be able to enter the Game.
They do have the Option, adding a Game Client Protection, being encrypted and the Packets changed every Week / two Weeks, this would raise Hell for many RMT Companies and the need to ban 10.000 - 20.000 Characters wouldn't be there anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Culfinrandir
Sure there are Developers out there that do focus on creating a Bot for the People that actually play the Game and are literally lazy, those are Paid and work around the Protection in no time, sadly...
Of course, let's not forget the fact that with adding Protection to the Client... the Raiding Scene would die out so fast as there would be no Way to show ones DPS Numbers off ^^ -
03-07-2017, 01:49 PMbardaboo
Can we start a class action lawsuit against them? Think about all the gil bots have cost us as players by tanking various markets on the MB