Verminion - strategies vs human players

Hey guys. I know the verminion playerbase is really really small, and as such there are basically no videos of high-level verminion play, so I decided to make a couple to show what I do in verminion pvp:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydfRsnloapk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFYXY9mlgJ0

I'm curious if anyone else have any tips to share.

Edit:

Faster minion recast tournament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCmcMYY7pQA

Poppet only tournament https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSKAv8MPfLw

Bomb-cleanse strat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymnHFUXhuRY

Nice videos, I see you're still at it. It's a pity I'm on Elemental otherwise I'd hit you up for some matches. It's pretty much the same over here. Coeurl kittens are popular, hildibrands and odins are popular, all the usual minions that are the best in their respective niches.

Something I'm seeing people start to cotton on to here is baby bats. They have 4 speed, a highly efficient 200 potency LB (which, unlike the coeurl kitten, is as wide as Odin's at the cost of being a DoT instead of instant damage). It makes them very good harassers, like a proactive kind of Rikku, because a group of them can roam the map and land LBs very easily with its huge hitbox. Their 4 speed and monster typing round out their very favourable stats, as not many minions are equipped to pin them down - let alone poppet types which suffer from the greatest dearth of good speedy minions.

The other cheeky thing I'm sure people over there do too is tech swap to black coeurls once you have the game in the bag and want to seal the deal. Sometimes your enemy manages to stabilize the match but has crystals on their last legs. Rather than try and win a final decisive fight and risk an upset, they pump out black coeurls and use their direct damage LB to bypass any turtling strategies. Like other top tier minions they have no glaring flaws in their stats too - 4 speed means you cannot be cornered and forced to fight, and being super effective against eyes means you can continue to threaten their search eye all the way to the end of the game.

Thanks! I've tried baby bat in the past but I don't particularly like cheaper monster types mainly because hildy is so damn op. I actually feel like hildy needs a nerf because his existance prevents a lot of other strategies from being valid.

I also added another video to my list, this time with more from the previous "faster minion recast" tournament, which I guess means faster minion summons.

Random thought, but I was looking at the minions added recently and the Hellpup from feast seems like a decent opener minion. I normally open with 6 coeurl kittens from the midde and go straight for the search eye, but the hellpup being effective vs eyes (and costing 15 so you can open with 4) can serve the exact same function.

What interests me is their LB which costs only 20 points (20 seconds of waiting) and is a summoning recast time reduction. It looks really useful with opening minions as it will let you ramp your army out a bit quicker. They wouldn't be a mainstay in your army for the whole match of course, but purely as an opener, a set of 4 of them just might edge coeurl kittens out as my minion of choice.

Something really interesting I learned today from a JP player I ran into, is that the "Action party is withdrawn from the battlefield immediately afterwards" status inflicted by certain LBs can be removed by "Removes detrimental effects from allies" type LBs.

You can do some really cheeky things with it since there is a considerable time lag between using an LB that sacrifices the casting minion, and when the action party is actually withdrawn. Things like a swarm of Robonyans that can freely use their selfdestruct ability and then get cleansed afterward so they don't die themselves. I assume it'll work the same way for Wind-up Gentleman's and Wind-up Tonberry's LBs.

Quite interesting, and not often I learn something completely new like that.

Oh wow that's pretty interesting. I tried it out and it does seem to work, but for hildy it also wipes off the atk buff, so you have to be careful with the timing. Paired with robonyan or gilgamesh it can be pretty devastating too. I will try to practice with it a bit and see how it goes.

So I've done several practice matches, and I found the strategy to be pretty good, but it's hard to tell without someone good to test against. I made a video on a few matches of using the strategy against a few high points people:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymnHFUXhuRY


After making this video I cleaned it up a bit more and now I'm pretty good with it. It's also pretty strong from this particular tournament (fast AP regen). Right now I'm not sure what I like better, hildy or gilgamesh, as gilgamesh allows me to spend like a bunch of minion points on something else, but hildy allows me to protect the tech units from an opponents ball of atk buffed minions.

The weakness is that spreading out is a bit harder since your ball isn't as mobile and requires a lot of summoning points to support. Mandy spam on the left and right is actually harder to deal with than usual. If you set up and take the centre, you can use hildy to run to the sides and use the lb, then run back and cleanse. Also if the opponent rushes before you can set up the combo it can also be difficult to work with.

This might be the next top tier strat, but I also think that it may be so good that it needs some more effective counters. Running 4 gilgamesh into a ball and exploding seems like a good counter, as well as traps. The apkallu's range ability might work too. A group of apkallu's is already very deadly since they are so tanky.

In the future, they need to add a spell cancellation minion, something that creates a bubble around your minions for 10s or so that causes all abilities to be removed for both you and the opponent. Or maybe a minion that sets all AP points to 0 fieldwide, or prevents abilities for 10s fieldwide.

Kan-E is the only 4 speed star minion that can keep up with Hildy and Gilgamesh to cleanse the buff or the explosion. Its just to expensive. Any competent player will be all over you and your crystals.


You come at me, im attacking you at the other side of the map, you go to deal with me at that side, im now attacking you from this side of the map. You spread your forces and now you die. You dont spread and hold 1 side you lose a crystal or 2. You can see were im going with this.

It takes to much time to set up and its is expensive. For a slower minion all I need to kill is one and the cleanse strategy is dead on its track. To many holes in the strategy to be the new meta.

I will say it did save my but this tournament, would have gone 29/30 if it was not for it. Basically same guy i was beating over and over finally manage to make me slip. Spread me out to much and got me down to 1 full and severely damaged crystals. I sacrifice the 2 to start setting up the Hildabrand & Kan-E minions (only reason this worked was because of the rules) He comes at me full force I let him it my final crystal till hildy was ready, had a minion of light breaking his crystal , pop the abilities and manage to kill them all, now he is empty so I gate rushed him. Break all 3 de-spwan hildy and zerg him with minion of lights for the kill. In reality all he had to do was summon 4 black cats on the last gate and he would have won easy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PotatoTree

In the future, they need to add a spell cancellation minion, something that creates a bubble around your minions for 10s or so that causes all abilities to be removed for both you and the opponent. Or maybe a minion that sets all AP points to 0 fieldwide, or prevents abilities for 10s fieldwide.

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That will change the meta. It will kill the buff Zerg entirely.

Too bad the 3 of us here are all on different datacenters. I would love to face some good players, I haven't had an exciting match in the longest time.

I do prefer to use either hildy+robo+serpent or gilg+kan-E, but I don't really like kan-e+hildy. With the first combo, you can do 4-5 serpents and 5-6 robos, and still have crystal breakers at the flanks and 4 roaming lbing hildies (just move to center after the lbs and move the hatchlings to meet them halfway. For gilg, I use kan-E to keep up, but I feel like there's no map control.

The meta around me seems to be buffed minions too, although I haven't had any issues with it using rikku and some micro. There needs to be some more trap counters too, because I'm doing so well with rikku that I get about 1 rageout per tourney about it being p2w. Verminion is some serious business.

Yeah I'm still winning all my matches with coeurl kittens being 90% of my units. With good micro they're very difficult to counter because of their 4 speed, even if you're up against monster types you can just snipe with your LB and run away/harass somewhere else. Being able to threaten their search eye at any point is a huge advantage too. Only baby bats seem to have the potential to keep them in check, since they also have 4 speed and their LB is much wider and easier to aim - but a few wind-up gentlemen will counter them in turn. There are still a lot of people I see running ATK buff type units (fenrir pup, wind-up succubus, etc), but in my opinion the direct damage LBs are superior.

As for that new strat, I didn't see the guy again as he stopped queuing after I took the match off him, so I didn't really get to test out effective strategies against it. But it does seem like a very all-in, deathball kind of strategy since you require your minions to be clumped together. I guess you either want to disrupt it early while it's being put together, and hit him all over the map simultaneously. Winning a straight up fight I think is possible with good micro, but much more risky for the attacker since a misplay means you'll eat a very costly selfdestruct explosion.

On a side note I finally passed the 3000 rank points mark. I haven't seen anyone else on my DC cross that yet - there are maybe 4 or 5 players that are 2000+, and maybe 20'ish people above 1000 - so it took a long time because I was only getting 1 point per win from everyone except the 2000+ players.

Edit:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PotatoTree

The apkallu's range ability might work too. A group of apkallu's is already very deadly since they are so tanky.

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By the way, does anyone know exactly what the apkallu minion LB does? I know it says "Converts auto-attacks to ranged attacks", which makes it sound like it lets them attack from range, but I don't believe that's the case. I might be wrong, but I believe its a mistranslation and is more along the lines of "Converts auto-attacks to AoE attacks" (it's a single-target minion by default).

The reason I think so (I don't have the minion so I can't test it myself) is I fought someone spamming apkallus once and I was wondering why the units I sent to fight it were melting the moment the LB was triggered. I never saw them firing at me from range, so I can only assume the dps increase was coming from their attacks cleaving instead of hitting single targets. The second thing is a bit more of a stretch, but the wind-up magitek bit is an AoE minion by default and its LB is called "All range attack" - so I'm just wondering if they both share the same root word in Japanese or something, and the apkallu's LB was mistranslated.

Another thing I just realized - and I confirmed my suspicions - is that the plush cushion's LB is able to cleanse the 'withdrawn from battle' status inflicted by the selfdestruct and wind-up gentleman's LBs (although it also removes the atk and def buff). It says "Removes all beneficial effects from enemies and allies" but this seems to be another mistranslation, it's really more like "Removes all beneficial and detrimental effects.." - either that or it doesn't differentiate between you and your enemy (after all, what is detrimental for you is beneficial for your enemy).

Anyway, the upshot of this is it's probably a good candidate for best cleanse minion in this case, as it has the all important 4 speed, and unlike wind-up kan-e only costs 10 to summon (instead of 20), and its LB only costs 20 points to use (instead of 30). And it's super effective versus search eyes as well, as the icing on the cake.

I wonder what other minions are potential sleeper hits because of things being lost in translation...

Hmm ill have to take a closer look at some minions, it never crossed my mine that the text could be wrong.

I tried out the plush cushions and they indeed do as you said. Plus being able to dispel opponent minions also adds some extra utility. Just got to be careful that you don't dispel their hildies (probably wont dispel their bombs since if they get one off the cushions will probably be dead). But at the moment, I agree that it's the best cleanse minion. It's also slightly tankier than the hatchling too.

I tested the apkallu some more and it does look like you are right in that it makes the attack aoe. I've faced some apkallu swarms a few times and they just melt away pretty much anything. I guess it's because each hit is like a hildy hit, but aoe. Luckily they can be out microed due to their low speed.

Well I'm glad that apkallu mystery is finally solved! I never got my ARR sightseeing log done as I only joined the game after Heavensward.

The other thing I noticed that perhaps you guys already know, is that minions with AoE autoattacks seem to have a slower attack interval than minions with single-target autoattacks. Based on some very cursory testing with a stopwatch, it seems like AoE minions have an autoattack interval of 5 seconds, and single target minions have a 3 second autoattack interval.

It's not big enough of a difference to sway existing minion choices I think, and probably done for balance purposes since AoE attacks can potentially add a lot of extra damage. I always did wonder why my AoE minions felt a little bit sluggish in combat, and perhaps that's the reason. It would also explain why the apkallu is unusually strong when their LB is activated - maybe they keep their 3 second interval when their LB converts their attacks to AoE, so like you said they pretty much become hildy on crack (if you let them catch up to you that is...)

I happened to record a random tournament match I played recently for someone, and I thought some of you might find it interesting to watch. I hope no one minds that I didn't black out any names, frankly I don't know how/don't have the software to do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOmn...ature=youtu.be

It's actually a little embarrassing because my play in the first quarter was quite sloppy, but I think it gives a rough overview of how I approach matches. Abuse coeurl kittens and constantly pressure the search eye, produce tech minions as required (in this case, bats to counter coeurl kittens), while making sure to have one super-effective unit harassing other infrastructure at all times. I personally prefer a slightly oblique camera angle as well, I feel it makes it a bit easier to watch the corners without moving the camera - I try to avoid having to move it at all if possible unless I'm doing something that requires more precision.

I find proactive strategies are much stronger than reactive ones in general, because it's very easy for me to order a minion to walk to an objective, but more taxing for your opponent to pay attention to it and respond appropriately. Often people will be distracted defending their search eye at the start and you get tons of chip damage in - and it becomes very hard to swing the momentum back in your favour even if you successfully repel the kittens.

Cool match! I need to find some more good swarm opponents that can multitask well to practice against.

Gave them a try and appreciate the guides, but I completely lost interest when I seen people win trading for ranks on the tournament rankings. Sigh.

Unfortunately there always are, in both TT and LoV. SE isn't really good at or interested in dealing with it. Some days I can't even get 1st in the tourny despite winning all 30 legit games because of a few win traders. I have way too much MGP anyway so I don't really care, I just play for the fun of it.

So how are you guys feeling about the viability of the new minions in Stormblood? From what I can see, none of them really seem like they have the potential to be meta defining.

The tiny tatsunoko will probably find a spot on my bar though, as a replacement for the wind-up nero if I need to tech swap into the utility it has (blows up opponent's trap and it deals damage as if it was yours). It seems almost strictly better for that purpose as it only costs 10.

Magitek Avenger F1 has a fairly strong special ability too with the potential for extreme amounts of burst - but with only 3 speed and it lasting 6 seconds (plus being situational to use, you have to be half dead), it doesn't seem very consistent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Myon88

So how are you guys feeling about the viability of the new minions in Stormblood? From what I can see, none of them really seem like they have the potential to be meta defining.

The tiny tatsunoko will probably find a spot on my bar though, as a replacement for the wind-up nero if I need to tech swap into the utility it has (blows up opponent's trap and it deals damage as if it was yours). It seems almost strictly better for that purpose as it only costs 10.

Magitek Avenger F1 has a fairly strong special ability too with the potential for extreme amounts of burst - but with only 3 speed and it lasting 6 seconds (plus being situational to use, you have to be half dead), it doesn't seem very consistent.

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Nothings has changed, as long as the str buff monsters are still strong nothing will change.

I stopped trying to be fancy in taking down the zerg or playing in general, now may strategy is clean and efficient. Open with 6 crystal busters 2/2/2 , 1(10c) eye buster , 1(10c) shield buster, by the time I have my opener set, i can tell if my opponent will zerg. If I see even 1 Succubus,Fenrir,Wolf pup, or any other str buff I will react with a Fenrir or a Pup, if they do not summon any I will bring 4 pandas and 4 pups. I still win most of my matches, but now its more fast and efficient.

Random question for the few of us who play, but does anyone know if minion LBs are triggerable via macro command or something like that? Clicking the button manually is of course way too clunky, and I'm guessing most people either box select their minions, or direct select them from the minion grid before hitting the LB hotkey. The latter option because sometimes box select won't select a minion with a ready LB (if there are 5 for example, and only 4 have LB meters charged and you get unlucky and the box select chooses the minion that isn't ready yet).

I met a player today who was triggering LBs really quickly (to the point where the sound effect was really distorted as 4 or 5 of them were playing simultaneously), and I'm curious how they did it. Even with excellent execution, it seems like a stretch that you can do it that manually that quickly.

You can keybind the LBs, I believe it's hotbar 3 position 1, 2, and 3 for the actions LB, trap, and withdraw respectively. I keybind all 3, LB and trap for obvious reasons, but keybinding withdraw allows you to click-withdraw to clickly refresh low-health minions.

Yeah you can keybind them - I do that as well. It was far faster than you can use them even that way though, practically simultaneous.

I still haven't figured it out anyway, unless it's a console-only command I'm not aware of since I don't have a ps4. I haven't seen that person again since then.

Hmm I'm not sure then, I've never seen that. However I can get off my LBs off very fast too, I basically mouse click on the grid of minions and use the hotkey. So it's just click-hotkey-repeat, and it's really fast.

https://i.imgur.com/f4qfFhD.jpg

I thought I'd share my current list of used minions since most of us are on different datacenters anyway. Besides, the nature of the game means knowing what minions to use and knowing how to control them are very different things. I'm curious if anyone uses minions that aren't on my list.

Top row: Mainly minions with utility that you won't produce a lot of.

Anti-arcana stone minions: The cheapest one from each species, generally you'll only make a handful and use them to harass. One from each species because sometimes tournaments disallow certain species - normally I'd just use the mammet by default.
Tiny Tatsunoko: Best source of anti-trap utility, only produced reactively.
Anti-shield type minions: The three fastest from each species. If I want to harass their shield I'll just make one and send it over as a distraction.
Self-destruct type minions: Only used in dire circumstances to reverse a losing game. Robonyan is cheaper but only 3 speed, Wind-up Gilgamesh is there if I really need a 4 speed option.
Plush Cushion: Best source of esuna in the game.

Bottom row: Mainly minions good at combat that will be produced in bulk.

Coeurl Kitten and Baby Bat: Needs no explanation, they're unequivocally S-tier, the best minions in the game by far.
Wolf Pup and Fenrir Pup: Best supporting minions of their respective species if you want an ATK buff. Coeurl Kittens almost always take precedence over Wolf Pups if you want critters, Fenrir Pups are ok to spam on their own if you need an offensive oriented monster type.
Black Coeurl: Best source of arcana stone direct damage limit break in the game, can be useful to finish off turtling opponents.
Cloud of Darkness, Hildy, Cid: Useful if you just need a large amount of stats in an expensive tanky minion - generally only needed in the early game to quickly defend against small groups of minions. There's no need for a critter version, as if you want critters, you almost always want Coeurl Kittens.
Rikku: Best trap-type limit break in the game. I don't really like trap oriented strategies as they're too reactive, but this minion is too unique to ignore even if I don't use it often.

I have mine set up as follows:
Attackers: Hildy, Nutkin, Puff of Darkness, Odin
Siege: I just use page 63. Since it is small and darker, the enemy sometimes doesn't see them in the heat of battle.
Buffer: Fenrir, Wolf
Swarm/LB spam: Coeurl Kitten
Bomb: Robo, Gilg
Anti-trap: Mammet #001, Tiny Tatsunoko, Nero
Healer: Louisox
Trap: Rikku, Cid
Shield Attacker: Panda, A single Serpent Hatchling (still waiting for 4 speed 10 cost shield breaker)
Defensive: Airship
Other: Cushion

I mainly do Rikku and bomb-type play, as it allows for good zone control. However it takes a bit of micro. I mostly use kittens as an opener or to use single ones to go for the eyes. I don't actually ever use bats.

Yeah I can see why you wouldn't have as much use for the bats if you opt for bomb-oriented strategies. Since I don't, it's difficult for me to punish deathballs without them. On a side note, I also learned recently that the 200 potency/-200 hp (1 potency = 1 hp) DoT from their limit break stacks with itself.

Critter only this week is extremely annoying.

Yeah all the 'X race only' rules are pretty annoying to be honest, and so are the rules like 'C20 and below' that change what minions you can field. It tends to lead to a lot of degenerate gameplay if a certain important counter is unable to be fielded.

That said, 'critters only' is probably the one I dislike the least, since while you end up seeing a lot of coeurl kittens and wolf pups, the swarm nature of those strategies still rewards good micro and situational awareness.

Last week's poppets only tournament is probably the most boring ruleset in my opinion. Apart from Rikku, most of the great poppet minions are expensive ones, so when theres's just 8 hildies on the field (for example) there isn't much room for the same depth of gameplay. And 'monsters only' is almost as bad as there is no monster counter to baby bat spam in my opinion - so you just see bat spam on both sides.

My strategy is very simple as I'm still kinda new to this:

3x 10-cost 4-speed gatecrashers (Dust Bunny, WU Estenien, etc.) up the sidelines to start
4x WU Yugiri/1x Flames poppet OR 4x Kidragora OR 2x WU Edda up the middle
(if gates not defended)
5x Flames OR 4x Kidra OR 2x WU Edda up sidelines to A/C crystals
(if gates defended)
Same as previous, but reinforce mid after gatecrashers ded
Replace ded with situation-appropriate counter

I haven't had the opportunity to test it much, but last tournament the strat went 4-4 (albeit against decidedly disorganized competition).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Myon88

Last week's poppets only tournament is probably the most boring ruleset in my opinion. Apart from Rikku, most of the great poppet minions are expensive ones, so when theres's just 8 hildies on the field (for example) there isn't much room for the same depth of gameplay. And 'monsters only' is almost as bad as there is no monster counter to baby bat spam in my opinion - so you just see bat spam on both sides.

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Really? I loved PO! What do you think of combined forces? Like, groups of minions that raise all allies' attack paired with an action party that raises defense? Or perhaps a support wing that inflicts a weakness to monsters?

By PO did you mean poppets only? Most people I saw in that tournament fielded the usual suspects (hildy, cid). Personally I opened with 4 Rikku's to harass the search eye and then just pumped out nothing but wind-up amal'jaas. Cheap swarms have an innate advantage over small groups of expensive minions, as you have more bodies on the field to harass multiple targets. They're countered by AoE limit breaks like the ones coeurl kittens and baby bats have - but in a poppet only tournament you don't have access to those, and there are no good poppet minions with such limit breaks.

Anyway, as for combined forces, I think the weakness of such strategies with minions that buff each other is that nothing's stopping your opponent from just running away from you. The win condition is to destroy your opponent's arcana stones and not necessarily kill their minions, so as long as they have 4-speed minions they never have to commit to fighting your minions. You could split your army up to deal with them, but you'll then lose the synergy your composition had. Also, baby bats are the bane of any strategy that relies on a big deathball of minions that buff each other - as their LB is extremely large and good for cutting down big swarms.

Which isn't to say it's a bad strategy, it just more of a bonus than something to make the primarily gameplan in my opinion. 20 coeurl kittens and 4 wolf pups to buff them, for example, are way stronger than 24 coeurl kittens.

Notable minion alert: Wind-up Kojin

Now the only minion in the game that's strong against arcana stones and does not have 1 speed, it has 3! It does cost 15, but as arcana stone specialty attackers tend to only be produced in small amounts, it shouldn't be much of an issue. It's also good against shields which is a nice bonus - though there are better minions for that purpose and anyway, being strong against arcana stones is the main draw of this unit.

I'm quite surprised they broke this rule as I always assumed arcana stone attackers were locked to minimum speed for balance reasons. You now have units that can get to arcana stones very, very quickly which is a big buff to people that use these particular minions aggressively.

I tried the Kojin a few times and it is extremely good. I'm pretty surprised too by this break in the meta. Poppets were already pretty OP, maybe this should have been something like a monster type instead so it could easily get run over by hildies to counter. As of now a bunch of rikku/hildy/kojin is insanely strong even if the opponent runs critters.

Yeah the wind-up kojin has really shaken up the metagame in my datacenter too, although for different reasons. People really like baby bats here as I mentioned before, and being a poppet that's good against arcana stones, I finally have a good poppet counter to them. I used to rely on hildies, but lately I've realized that when you start facing an extreme amount of bats, they actually counter hildibrands instead because hildy's 400 hp is at the perfect range to be 2-shotted by two baby bat LBs (which can stack and tick simultaneously).

If you stick them on your opponent's stones, the bats can come in to LB them and run away as per their usual hit and run strategy, but then they'll be letting them accumulate damage on the stones. The DoT nature of the bat's LB is a disadvantage here too, and to make things better the kojin's LB is a heal which nicely counters it. So they're forced to stick around and fight to deny damage to the stones - but baby bats are terrible at actually fighting and being monsters they're at a disadvantage. All in all it forces my opponents to have a game plan beyond just spamming bats, which I'm very pleased to see.

But yeah their 3 speed is probably the biggest game changer. It used to be that you could see any arcana stone attackers coming from a mile away and prepare accordingly, because they would take ages to walk over. With 3 speed however, they can arrive extremely quickly which means even a few seconds lapse of concentration can be enough for you to miss them and start taking massive damage.

Hey Momoko, I happen have an alt on aether now so hit me up if you want to play some games. Same for anyone else on aether.

I'll have to give myself a bit of a handicap though, while most of the minions I use are obtained by level 15 (strangely enough), I have no intention of leveling any further so that means no wind-up hildies and kojins for me.

Oh sure! Sorry about the late response, the holidays and my computer breaking halfway through kinda had me busy, but I'm back now. I'm on Sargatanas and usually on late afternoon EST time. Feel free to msg/friend me and we can set up some games c:

That's good to hear. Anyway, in case we don't happen to run into each other, I'll be showing up regularly during tournament periods so you can always find me there.

Those were some fun matches Myon! I haven't had an exciting match since like last Spring. Maybe next time I can stream some games, it might get some more people interested.