Lootmaster... is it cheating?

My FC leader just had a party in PF for a Ifrit Ex Farm and clearly had [Lootmaster] shown in the msg. After a run, the whistle dropped and as he was the one who formed the party (and was after the whistle himself) he took it, with the intention that the next whistle would go to the next person who joined. It was stated that was what the plan was before the run started.

However... he was accused of cheating and even had threats of reporting to a GM for such. How is it cheating.. when it was clearly stated in the PF msg, that Lootmaster was in use and that the whistles would be handed out in order of join? I've done that myself when I was farming the whistles and was never called a cheater or threatened...

Is there such a stigma with Lootmaster? Or is it just some people either not reading the PF msg or reading only want they want to?

The people didn't read and did not realize it was a lootmaster party. There is nothing wrong with them. I have done some pony farms in the past with lootmaster and gave out the ponies in join order with no problems.

As long as it was stated up front there is no problem with it.

While it's not cheating, i don't consider it moral and just pure greed.

The people who joined Lootmaster party were asking for it.

Then again the "Whistle distributed in order of joining" protocol for low droprate stuffs itself is dumb.

Cheating? No. Morally dubious? Yes.

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Originally Posted by Arielyanna

My FC leader just had a party in PF for a Ifrit Ex Farm and clearly had [Lootmaster] shown in the msg. After a run, the whistle dropped and as he was the one who formed the party (and was after the whistle himself) he took it, with the intention that the next whistle would go to the next person who joined. It was stated that was what the plan was before the run started.

However... he was accused of cheating and even had threats of reporting to a GM for such. How is it cheating.. when it was clearly stated in the PF msg, that Lootmaster was in use and that the whistles would be handed out in order of join? I've done that myself when I was farming the whistles and was never called a cheater or threatened...

Is there such a stigma with Lootmaster? Or is it just some people either not reading the PF msg or reading only want they want to?

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Reading is a hard skill, more people should do it.

As a moral perogative, for me personally, the Lootmaster should never get first pick. It builds trust if you have the power to allocate loot but you choose to receive it last. Taking it first is viewed as being a dick because people perceive it as abuse of power.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

Reading is a hard skill, more people should do it.

As a moral perogative, for me personally, the Lootmaster should never get first pick. It builds trust if you have the power to allocate loot but you choose to receive it last. Taking it first is viewed as being a dick because people perceive it as abuse of power.

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That's a ridiculous way of viewing it. For one, while this perception of trust is nice and all, the reasons of creating a group through PF is business, you are there to do a thing and get a thing. Which, secondly, anyone can make a group through PF. That people assume the one who went through the effort to make and collect the people for the group then has to put aside their own want, when everyone else merely joined, is some backwards logic.

I am ok with the party leader setting lootmaster and taking first drop on whistle and then resetting the loot to normal as long as the party stays together long enough for at the bare minimum a couple more to drop. From past exp I can say that it stinks to set up multiple pts and help 10s of people get the whistle when you cannot roll higher than a 10 yourself.

Weapons I can see lootmastering so 1 person doesn't get them all or a majority which happens often but it's honestly not worth it.

It's not considered cheating, but yes, lootmaster has huge stigma due to how many people create parties solely to guarantee the mount for themselves and ditch quickly (or immediately) once they get it. People tend to me more accepting of them for ponies since the drop rates are far more reasonable. Birds though...

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Originally Posted by Arielyanna

It was stated that was what the plan was before the run started.

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Assuming this is true, the fault lies with everyone who didn't read the rules before joining or anyone who read the rules but thought they'd complain until they were changed anyway. Too bad, so sad for them.

If it has been clearly advertised as being a lootmaster party in the description, then no, it wouldn't be considered cheating in the slightest.

People failing to read these is not uncommon but why would the blame fall onto the party leader in this case? If you don't accept the terms of the party, then don't friggin' join it.

It's just consider dodgy at best I meen it's like hey join my party help me get my mount and if I feel like it I might help you for a few runs then fake DC or say I have something else to do and yes that's happened to me in the past it sucks and I don't trust loot master party's for this reason best option is greed only party's or just normal loot rules

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

That's a ridiculous way of viewing it. For one, while this perception of trust is nice and all, the reasons of creating a group through PF is business, you are there to do a thing and get a thing. Which, secondly, anyone can make a group through PF. That people assume the one who went through the effort to make and collect the people for the group then has to put aside their own want, when everyone else merely joined, is some backwards logic.

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Which is why I said moral perogative lol, strictly moral, no business.
Seriously, do people to expect to trust a complete random stranger who has the power to control what they get rewarded to carry through with their promise? And it looks especially bad if the lootmaster is also the person who self allocated the loot. Its all a matter of perspective, I'm merely explaining the thought process of the people reporting that FC leader for cheating.

When I join a PF, I accept the rules. If I don't like the rules, I don't join. Plain simple.

If your master has accused and reported, he can make a good laugh at it, as long as PF master is king. The children that joined without read the rules but complaining about them later, that have to be reported for being so childish they don't meet the minimal age requirement of the game.

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

While it's not cheating, i don't consider it moral and just pure greed.

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How is it greedy (or immoral, as another post wrote) to get the first reward yourself in exchange for organizing the party and then giving the rest of the rewards first come first serve? That's pretty much the epitome of fair and the opposite of greedy.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

How is it greedy (or immoral, as another post wrote) to get the first reward yourself in exchange for organizing the party and then giving the rest of the rewards first come first serve? That's pretty much the epitome of fair and the opposite of greedy.

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Because like how there is a very obvious lack of ability to read in this community at times, so is there the lack of understanding what one has written as well.

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

While it's not cheating, i don't consider it moral and just pure greed.

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Nobody forces you to join parties with lootmaster rule. If it's clearly stated that it's lootmaster and you don't like it, make your own party. Ohh and hey, as the party leader; you have the right - morally and under the rules of the game - to choose lootmaster, greed only or normal looting rules.

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Originally Posted by Arielyanna

he took it, with the intention that the next whistle would go to the next person who joined.

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One of the most important questions could be:

Did he abadon/leave the party after this drop or did he continue for the others?

Originally, I was quite against lootmaster, but thinking back I've had people join my free for all parties, take the bird, and ditch asap which is just as bad because then you're going to have to fill that spot again (probably with someone else who doesn't have the mount and who might pull the same exact thing). The risk of doing free for all vs lootmaster isn't any more or less.

Honestly, PF is there to make your own rules, so whatever rules the Party Leader intends to set goes. By joining, you agree to those terms.

So yeah...don't join, make your own group with different rules and see which fills first.

I don't feel like it's cheating, but I do feel like motivation for others to join such a party once it's near full might be lower than one going by luck of the roll. Lots of people are likely to ditch once they get what they want, leaving the last few people to join out of luck unless the party leader continuously brings new people in, but it has to stop eventually, which means eventually the latest players to join will be SOL. Ideally the party intention from the start would be that no one leaves until everyone has one, but some people are greedy/dishonest, and for others life simply happens and they have to leave.

At least with rolling, everyone has an equal chance at each whistle, so even if the party disbands before everyone has it, they've had at least one solid chance at it (or at least a chance to have a chance at it assuming it doesn't drop on the last run ;p)

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

How is it greedy (or immoral, as another post wrote) to get the first reward yourself in exchange for organizing the party and then giving the rest of the rewards first come first serve? That's pretty much the epitome of fair and the opposite of greedy.

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You honestly believe they would stick around for all 8 people to get their mount?, some might sure but i doubt the majority would.

Fairness would be everyone has an equal chance of getting the mount aka normal loot rules, loot master on the other hand those who come last may as well not joined at all.

Hi everyone,
I'm the FC Leader that Arielyanna originally made the post about.
I appreciate all of the comments in regards to this. I was feeling pretty horrible last night after it all happened, as it was never my intention to cause any trouble.
I thought PF with Lootmaster would be the best way for me to finally get the last pony I needed. For several nights I've had pretty horrid luck getting them due to really low rolls.
My PF was listed as "Unsyced for your WT. Lootmaster in case Pony drops."
In hindsight, I guess I could've made it more clear or spoke up sooner. I figured if they joined, then they understood. I'm not the type to try and cheat anyone and spent 5 hours on Ifrit earlier trying to help others get the mount. I just hate being viewed as a douche, or a cheater, or morally dubious, because I was all ready to stick around to help the rest who joined, but people just dropped angrily and I was left not knowing what I had done wrong. =(

There was nothing dishonest or immoral about what you did. Would I join a lootmaster group? Maybe, maybe not. Probably not, but that doesn't change anything. You outlined your rules, people chose to not read them and that is on them.

So many people can't read party descriptions it's quite funny.

It is not cheating. It's your own fault if you consent to something like this. Learn how to read the party descriptions and learn how to check the loot rules on the pop up window when someone applies to a trial.

No it's not, if you put that loot master is in effect and when your duty pops it states that loot master is in effect and no one mentions, reads anything about the loot master and then carries on with the duty and completes it then it's there fault for not reading.

If you don't agree with it, don't join simple as. Too many people just see the instance and join and not reading.

Honestly, would you drive right past a stop sign? get pulled over by the police and then moan at them for pulling you over because you didn't read the stop sign?


anyway I loot mastered A1-A12 to help boost my sis up who just hit LV60. I put in PF and said in party before we went in and everyone was fine about it.

Why did I choose loot master? Because I don't trust randoms.

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

You honestly believe they would stick around for all 8 people to get their mount?, some might sure but i doubt the majority would.

Fairness would be everyone has an equal chance of getting the mount aka normal loot rules, loot master on the other hand those who come last may as well not joined at all.

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First come, first serve. You can't guarantee anyone will stay on normal loot rules, nor can you guarantee that the last player who joins on normal won't still get the loot last. That's the issue with RNG based systems, however with Lootmaster, you have the option of obtaining said loot, even if someone before you joins, the possibility of them quiting out and you moving up is still a likely possibility, yet you remain promised the next drop via rule set.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

Reading is a hard skill, more people should do it.

As a moral perogative, for me personally, the Lootmaster should never get first pick. It builds trust if you have the power to allocate loot but you choose to receive it last. Taking it first is viewed as being a dick because people perceive it as abuse of power.

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well in my case i've been after this exact pony for over 2 weeks now. every.single.group i've had more than half leave after the first one when no pony drops. wondrous tails has made farming parties that much harder thanks to people who don't follow the rules

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

You honestly believe they would stick around for all 8 people to get their mount?, some might sure but i doubt the majority would.

Fairness would be everyone has an equal chance of getting the mount aka normal loot rules, loot master on the other hand those who come last may as well not joined at all.

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My Bismark bird was from a lootmaster one where i was the last member. it took us less than 1 hour 20 mins to get all 6 (1 person already had 1)

Some good points raised... but there is a stigma to lootmaster obviously from those who were either burned badly in their own experiences or from word of mouth from friends etc. You'll get good and bad everywhere, specially in a MMO. As I stated in another thread about this... I ran Lootmaster Primal pony parties in the past myself, even took down the names of the people who join in order and when the Whistles dropped, sent them to the next in list. I look at it as, people joining to help me get something I'm after... I owe it to them to help them out as well.

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Originally Posted by Arielyanna

...I ran Lootmaster Primal pony parties in the past myself, even took down the names of the people who join in order and when the Whistles dropped, sent them to the next in list. I look at it as, people joining to help me get something I'm after... I owe it to them to help them out as well.

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Agreed. I myself was skeptical of them at first, but I tried them out and I never had a bad experience. Honestly, though, I only trust lootmaster farms for ponies, or bird farms for Bis or Rav. Most cases everyone will get one, and you can even go in with less than 8 people and make it even faster. But anything else is just silly; zurvan and sophia lootmaster are laughable - do you really think everyone will get one? I'll just try my luck with normal, and keep accumulating my tokens if I'm really unlucky :P

I joined a Lootmaster "ponies given in order of joining the party" farm exactly one time, and while I DID get my pony (I was second in line, after the party leader), only three ponies dropped after three hours of farming, after which the party broke up. This made me feel pretty guilty, and I now consider Lootmaster parties to be a very shady form of farming for these kinds of rare drops. I will not participate in them, even if I have a strong chance of getting the drop - because half or more of the party has essentially been tricked into helping the other half or less get their drops for very little chance of reward.

I do not consider it to be "cheating", persay, if it's clearly spelled out in the Party Finder, and it's certainly possible that the party leader FULLY INTENDS to stay long enough for everyone to get a drop (because they don't really understand just how bad the drop rates really are). Nonetheless, honest or not, those party leaders are fooling themselves, as are the folks who join the party after the fourth or so member.

I created a lootmaster party for birds this weekend and after the first bird drop I had a terrible emergency I had to attend to so I disbanded the party, I feel really bad but what can I do? It was a real emergency.

I ended up forming 3 more lootmaster parties and after the first bird drop I had the same emergency to attend to. Now I have 4/7 birds. Im happy.

It's not cheating. It was outlined clearly in the party description. I finally got my Ifrit pony after numerous low rolls in FFA groups in a Lootmaster party last week. It can work just fine if everyone understands how the rolls work and accepts the way the order is established. It is unfortunate that many have given it a bad name, as they loot and disband once they have what they wanted. But the feature itself is not against any rules.

I think its silly to get mad over as long as someone was honest about it.

People like to jump ship after a few runs, first come first serve is completely fair, so long as the people are willing to stick with the party until everyone gets one.

If they leave after, no, like forget you. I don't care if your house is on fire, sit down and do your job.

I have seen these party's pop up lately and on stuff like Sophia/zurvon ex which unless you get incredibly lucky your not going to get 8 birds so the parties sit up up at 6/8 for like 50 minutes because no one is going to join the last 2 spots.

Also had a group on Sophia ex try to sneak it in after the group filled up 5/8 were on the same server but they tried to act like they didn't know each other and act like they just decided this was the best way to farm it.

I just cant understand why does joining a party first give you more priority then someone else this makes 0 sense and is just the leader of the party trying to insure they get their drop.