VOIP Solo Que - Cheating?

Since I started PvPing again I\\'ve become a little more active in one of the more well known PvP Discords "Team Tryhard" and I like most of you have been adjusting to the recent removal of Chat.. n lately I\\'ve noticed alot of players mostly from the Primal DC that have been hopping on Voice chat if they luckily get Que\\'ed into a Solo 4v4 match together..

While I understand that VOIP is NOT against the TOS, n to be honest I\\'m all for implementing voice chat into the game client since Communication / Coordination is essential in high level Feast Matches.. i personally think that the players that I refrenced earlier are purposely seeking out an advantage (VOIP) to help them win and imo it\\'s just as bad as Cheating or using ACT Callouts

I\\'m curious what everyone\\'s opinions are on this?

Party voice chat is done in other pvp games like online shooters and its integral part of these games. Like in Battlefields you can que 'solo' but can talk with your random party members. Or not talk, the choice if you need that advantage is yours. Just because this game doesn't have this feature built-in doesn't make it any more cheating. It's not there for the same old 'possible harassment' reason or just not enough budget/PS3 limitations.
PvP Discord is available to everyone, even for Playstation players who can use it on mobile phone, so if they want voice communication is up to them. The advantage is overrated though, even if you get all 4 players in voice chat you'll still lose against a better team without it.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

PvP Discord is available to everyone, even for Playstation players who can use it on mobile phone, so if they want voice communication is up to them. The advantage is overrated though, even if you get all 4 players in voice chat you'll still lose against a better team without it.

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I disagree, I think it's a pretty significant advantage.. otherwise the players abusing VOIP wouldn't be doing it in the 1st Place.

Yes the Discord is available to everyone.. but that is a silly arguement lol not EVERY single person is going to join the Discord or even knows about it lol where the real problem lies is that the players abusing this are knowlingly Using VOIP to gain an advantage over players they're facing.. that arent using it lol

We wouldn't have to 'get around' the chat restriction like this if it hadn't been removed in the first place.

People wanting to communicate effectively in a team based mode of competitive play isn't cheating--it's common sense.

All you're getting out of VOIP is what you'd get out of party chat anyway.

Well I already saw 4 top players from aether all on soloq voip in the same team and still lost against a so called "meme healer" but yea the advantage is there and idm it when there was a ingame voice chat or at least a chat to use. Yes everyone can get discord but for ppl who got kicked from it its not a option.

I hope VoIP stays around even if they undo the chat change. Matches are must more enjoyable with team communication. I'm using VoIP to enhance my gaming experience, I play team games to play with a team, not a bunch of AI. If I only cared about winning matches, I wouldn't constantly be swapping jobs 3 times a night. Matches where 2-3 people on each team are using VoIP have been more interesting than most matches I have ever played in soloq. Players should be rewarded for good teamwork, and that is exactly what VoIP does. A team of lesser players can beat a team of stronger players because the lesser players actually play as a team.


Let's punish teamwork in a team game and call it cheating.
Replace players with AI, I'm sure most of the community would have more fun that way.

tl;dr A team using VoIP that wins because they are using VoIP deservers to win. Said team is functioning as a team better than a non-VoIP team in a team game.

Edit: Comparing it to callouts is pretty unfair too, callouts are using an electronic response to parsed logs. Parsing logs with 3rd party tools is directly against the ToS. VoIP is using player skill to help awareness, it is actually promoting more teamwork. Even just listening is extremely helpful, which even people with social anxiety can do, and I have done on occasion. The only time I would consider it maybe unfair is if an opponent is deaf, but losing sound queues is already putting that player at a disadvantage. Calibrating for that would be impossible unless all players muted their sound, in which case the deaf person would have an advantage.

With or without this asinine chat restriction, VoIP usage for PvP is no less fair than it would be for raiding or simply socializing with friends you enjoy playing with. This really shouldn't even be brought into question, especially in the wake of the terrible hinderance to effective team communication that Quick Chat is.

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Originally Posted by Pyrali

All you're getting out of VOIP is what you'd get out of party chat anyway.

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Not quite - VOIP is an advantage over typing because when you type in chat, your hands are focused on hitting the keys for the words you want to say. When you use VOIP, your hands are still focused on actual gameplay and you don't stand around awkwardly in the middle of a match.

Thus, strictly speaking, it's an advantage over typing and even more so over chat macros. And since that advantage is not built into the actual game, but rather makes use of third party software, it's technically an unfair one. If this game would take competition serious, it would have to ban it and work on a version built into the game instead, which would then become the only legitimate one.

Luckily, it doesn't really take competition all that serious, so it's safe to say it's fair game. Honestly, I don't think even League of Legends takes it "that" serious either outside their hosted tournaments and they're as serious as it gets in online gaming.

Discord has been used by PvPers even before the chat ban, if you've watched any of the fights that have been broadcast you'll see that when friends happen to get on the same team they'll jump into Discord and coordinate their bursts very well. It is a HUGE advantage and to pretend that chat is just as good is being purposefully obtuse. The question from the OP though is what's your opinion / is it cheating / is it as bad as ACT call-outs?


Let's address the ACT call-outs first. The ACT parser call-outs keeps a constant watch on everyone and immediately gives the call-out when anyone buffs for burst. Even with a couple of talented players using Discord (or even chat before it was restricted), there is a delay between noticing the burst and notifying their teammates. ACT doesn't have this limitation. ACT doesn't get distracted. 100% of the time, the call-out is as soon as the client receives the information. This is an unfair advantage in that players no longer have to watch out for bursts since ACT will notify them and this gives a HUGE advantage to PC players because PS3/PS4 players can't use the same tool.

Discord is a free app available to anyone with a smartphone or PC. It's possible that some players don't have a smartphone that would allow them to use Discord and they'll be at a disadvantage much like PC ACT users vs Console. However, because Discord is available to both PC and Console, this is a fairly even playing field for all players. Even if users in solo queue chose to use Discord; they still need to have full battle awareness in order to catch and stop enemy bursts. It is easy to get caught up in the action and miss an enemy burst and even with Discord a missed burst can't be relayed. Before the chat restriction, communication about enemy bursts could also be done in chat and people would usually macro a warning. This was more advantageous than a couple of people using Discord because the message is relayed to the entire team and not just the 2 friends in Discord so those people using macro call-outs in chat had the advantage in this situation.

So, is using Discord cheating? Is it as bad as ACT call-outs? What's my opinion?

Discord is not cheating. What's to prevent two friends from calling each other on their phones or using PS4's built-in party chat or any number of other communication channels to talk with each other when they're on the same team? The real issue here is that SE doesn't provide a built-in VOIP option for the game and that should be addressed; both for raids and PvP

Is Voice Chat (Discord or other) as bad as ACT call-outs? Not at all. Voice chat still requires focus and battle awareness to catch all enemy bursts; with ACT you don't have to worry about keeping an eye on everyone else as ACT will never miss telling you about a burst.

I personally don't use VOIP or other Voice Chat during PVP, however if a VOIP channel were offered in-game I would at least listen in order to coordinate better with my teammates. In my opinion, full chat functionality should be restored and a VOIP channel should be made available. This is a competitive team play mode that requires communication to coordinate and the more you can communicate with your team the more likely you are to get a win.

alot of players mostly from the Primal DC???

If they are, they are not in the matches I played after the chat ban. It has been mostly spamming the pvp chat macro and during matches and before matches and hoping for the best.

Short answer: no, nothing is wrong with using voip.

SE continues to try and move the playerbase back into the Stone Age, so it's up to the players to find better ways to communicate in this TEAM BASED COMPETITIVE GAME MODE WITHIN AN MMORPG.

wait it's a mmorpg and players communicate and use vocal ? what a shame.
it's not cheating, it's up to anybody to get to this discord or even use a other voip.

I think my view mostly echoes Llus' post:

ACT is inherently better than voice in detecting/calling out bursts as well as tracking DRs and is fully automated. Furthermore, it is strictly limited to PC players. It has specifically been designated by the developers as "cheating".

VOIP surely gives an advantage but it is widely available to just about anyone who wants to use it, even if just to listen. Besides that, the advantage it yields is generally in proportion to the people using it. Bad players using VOIP don't gain as much of an advantage (generally) as good players using it, and many times (but not all the time) the team with better players will win regardless of who has more (if any) players in VOIP. But even if we did want to restrict this, how could we? Would you somehow prevent other players from using any number of voice programs? Or from making a telephone call while playing? Or from playing in the same room?

Instead of limiting the ways for players to communicate, SE should be expanding it. It would help level the playing field if they brought back chat so that even players outside of VOIP could use basic chat macros to quickly communicate with their team. To go even further, adding an in-game voice option would greatly enhance the player experience for everyone I think.

You aren't really solo queuing if you and your friends queue in already using voice together though. I think people are derailing the point of the thread being for solo queue. It's an unfair advantage when you are against random groups that almost certainly have just the basic PvP quick chat macro's. At this point people might as well queue 'solo' in pairs or in pre-made groups.

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Originally Posted by ArianneMartellMateus

You aren't really solo queuing if you and your friends queue in already using voice together though. I think people are derailing the point of the thread being for solo queue. It's an unfair advantage when you are against random groups that almost certainly have just the basic PvP quick chat macro's. At this point people might as well queue 'solo' in pairs or in pre-made groups.

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https://discord.gg/fJRQ66X - there, you're aren't at a disadvantage anymore

Play an AST and no VOIP team can beat you - I learnt this in one of the threads made here. It's not an "unfair advantage" or "cheating" if you don't lose.

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

Play an AST and no VOIP team can beat you - I learned this in one of the threads made here. It's not an "unfair advantage" or "cheating" if you don't lose.

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I mean, I disagree that it is cheating or an unfair advantage because anyone can do it. This point is a little iffy though. If I took a bunch of steroids, and then lost the tour de france I would still have been cheating. The state change between winning or losing doesn't change the state of cheating.

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Originally Posted by TiramisuMacaron

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Perhaps not, but in current society, 'losers are not cheaters'.
Steroids and losing the Tour de France can have an effect on your career or generally just affect your health at a later date (for some). Using VOIP and losing as any rank is not going to get you into trouble with any authority that will ban you from Feast for the following seasons. In fact, many do not even care and its a non-issue.

Not so for steroids, however.

Winning or losing in Feast actually doesn't change the state of anything, it doesn't matter VOIP or ACT because those groups of people still exist and have existed for 3 full seasons now. They still lose games, they will not be looked at for their behaviour and they will continue along normally just like a person who has never used them.

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Originally Posted by ArianneMartellMateus

You aren't really solo queuing if you and your friends queue in already using voice together though. I think people are derailing the point of the thread being for solo queue. It's an unfair advantage when you are against random groups that almost certainly have just the basic PvP quick chat macro's. At this point people might as well queue 'solo' in pairs or in pre-made groups.

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This is part of an entirely different and bigger issue. Before, even a team of random people could chat and strategize:

"Hey, I've fought that [job] over there before. They tend to [insert assessment of player strategy here]."
"Hey, let me build stacks on the offense box, [BRD/MCH] you can have the buff."
"I'll force out the healer's Attunement right away, then let's all focus on the DPS without the defense buff."

They didn't need VoIP for this. Many times it WASN'T used. But under this asinine and terrible quick chat system, there is no macro that can perfectly mimic any of the above examples. So people who are serious about wanting to work together and win will offer it where available. Discord is versatile in that you can temporarily invite people or make servers on the fly. I have a server I use purely as a glorified memo pad.

Fact is, before this quick chat, VoIP wasn't as necessary because you could type and communicate fully with your team, whether fully random, or if you happened to be paired up with a friend or player you know. Now? If you really want to coordinate, it's still an option, but almost now a necessity.

Back in my day, people talking while playing video games isint consider cheating..

Nailed it with the first post. Voice communication isn't against the user agreement. Parser's are. So no, its not the same at all.

Cheating? No. Scummy? Yes.

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Originally Posted by ArianneMartellMateus

You aren't really solo queuing if you and your friends queue in already using voice together though. I think people are derailing the point of the thread being for solo queue. It's an unfair advantage when you are against random groups that almost certainly have just the basic PvP quick chat macro's. At this point people might as well queue 'solo' in pairs or in pre-made groups.

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My thoughts exactly.

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Originally Posted by Hana_Shizuka

Cheating? No. Scummy? Yes.
My thoughts exactly.

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What's scummy about being able to communicate effectively with your teammates?

7000000000 of humans is able to communicate, and offcourse... be potential cheaters...
more seriously this tread is about use or not a tool. If you think it's a big advantage try to use the tool in question.
In a frontline for exemple there are some point to see to be potential winner :
A balanced Alliance, 2 tanks, 2 heal, 4 dps by team for exemple
Coordination Vocal or not,
Some call can help too, vocal or not.
Vocal let you know what others is up too, without the vocal you need to watch more what others is doing to bring good coordination.

If SE wants to remove their method of communication for players, then we're going to find a way around it. Simple as that.

Upset that you're up against players coordinated on voip? Join Discord.

Don't like it? Blame SE for putting us into this position. I wasn't a big fan of voip in solo queue matches before but now it's a NECESSITY so I will not blame people for taking advantage of it.

I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond, n I think a lot of valid points were made through multiple posts..

I encourage ALL types of communication in ANY competitive team based game n personally I think SE should allow BOTH Text and Voice for Competitive PvP

Comparing ACT and VOIP wasn't my initial idea for this post.. Clearly ACT is a 3rd party program that is 100% against TOS so comparing the two is silly.. I think what I was more trying to say is that between the two there's one thing in common.. The player is looking for a competitive advantage over his opponents n is looking to improve his chances at gaining that Precious +25 MMR..

I think what it comes down to are a few simple questions..

1. Do the players using VOIP in Solo Queue while their opponents aren't gain a competitive advantage?

2. If so how significant of an advantage?

3. Should it be looked down upon regardless of if it's not technically "cheating" or against TOS

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Originally Posted by Praesul

If SE wants to remove their method of communication for players, then we're going to find a way around it. Simple as that.

Upset that you're up against players coordinated on voip? Join Discord.

Don't like it? Blame SE for putting us into this position. I wasn't a big fan of voip in solo queue matches before but now it's a NECESSITY so I will not blame people for taking advantage of it.

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This exactly. If you aren't able to effectively communicate through official channels, then you're going to find a way to do it anyway if you want to win.

Also a lot of people have said "it's not an advantage because Voice Chat is free for anyone to use" While this is true I think it's a dumb argument.. and is just being said to try n justify their actions by saying "but.. hey.. they could do it to"

What it comes down to is that since Voice Chat isn't available in the Game itself and That only a portion of the PvP player base is in the Discord channel that has been refrenced.

Yes the channel is free to join but it's a fact that not EVERY player has access to it right now and the players that are in it and choose to use VOIP are at a significant advantage.. so what's the solution to all of this? Spam the Discord Channel so that every single PvP Player is in it? lol or Implement Voice chat in the game client? (Pigs are going to fly" or just turn the other cheek?

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Originally Posted by Makavelii

I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond, n I think a lot of valid points were made through multiple posts..

I encourage ALL types of communication in ANY competitive team based game n personally I think SE should allow BOTH Text and Voice for Competitive PvP

I think what it comes down to are a few simple questions..

1. Do the players using VOIP in Solo Queue while their opponents aren't gain a competitive advantage?

2. If so how significant of an advantage?

3. Should it be looked down upon regardless of if it's not technically "cheating" or against TOS

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A 1.) Yes they do. So did players that made effective use of chat while that was still a viable option. Those that didn't typically ended up on the losing side.

A 2.) This depends on the situation and composition of the people using chat and their team composition. You could have a great tank and healer in chat with horrible DPS and your chances don't improve much. Same with 2 great DPS in chat, but horrible healer or tank and your chances of winning are still going to be pretty low. The major advantage that you're going to get is a bit more coordination between the players using chat, but i don't think it's a huge advantage against an equally skilled team.

A 3.) I don't believe communication in a team environment should be looked down upon no matter how you communicate with each other.

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Originally Posted by Makavelii

Also a lot of people have said "it's not an advantage because Voice Chat is free for anyone to use" While this is true I think it's a dumb argument.. and is just being said to try n justify their actions by saying "but.. hey.. they could do it to"

What it comes down to is that since Voice Chat isn't available in the Game itself and That only a portion of the PvP player base is in the Discord channel that has been refrenced.

Yes the channel is free to join but it's a fact that not EVERY player has access to it right now and the players that are in it and choose to use VOIP are at a significant advantage.. so what's the solution to all of this? Spam the Discord Channel so that every single PvP Player is in it? lol or Implement Voice chat in the game client? (Pigs are going to fly" or just turn the other cheek?

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Restore feast chat and implement in-game VOIP.

I'm not 100% sure why people are scared to chat. This is not a troll post, everything I'm about to say is 100% serious.

There is a player on Primal datacenter with autism, not like toxic calling someone autistic, but real doctor diagnosed autism. He has had social problems he has had to deal with entire life. I invited him to VoIP with me on stream one game, dude comes in, talks to me the whole game, we lose, but he is a champion of the light in my eyes now for having the courage to do that. I'm not sure why people are calling it scummy when the only people who are activly prevented from using it are deaf players.

Everyone can use it is a fine argument, it not being against the TOS is a fine argument. VoIP is the new meta for high tier play for players who win by communicating rather than having top mechanical skill, embrace it or avoid it. You can pick ninja everygame too, just because some dude is picking monk doesn't mean it is scummy.

Maybe this means in the future they will get rid of solo rank que and just have team que. Would solve a lot of problems. No need for reporting team mates. Teams could coordinate how they chat as well. Teams could all go ast mnk.

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Originally Posted by Llus

What's scummy about being able to communicate effectively with your teammates?

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Don't misunderstand me. There is nothing scummy about communicating effectively with your
team. The scummy part to me is like it's taking advantage of the general player base that is at a
disadvantage not using voip, when most know a lot of people don't use voip, it's not in-game and
there is now no chat.

If SE were to implement their own voice chat I'd fully support it but I personally do not feel it very
sportsmanship like when odds are they aren't using voip.

That it's scummy is just my unfiltered opinion in response to op.

The scummy part is circumvented by the fact that VoIPs are freely available to all but hearing/speech impaired players, and that people who don't use it do so by choice. Maybe some truly don't know it's an option, and that's unfortunate, but there's a large number of players that willfully refuse or avoid using voice chat for all kinds of reasons.

Honestly, that's on them.