Positioning questions for tank in training

Heya! I'm still trying to pick up the finer points of tanking (wanting to be a better healer so I've picked up tanking, PLD for now).

I'm having trouble with some more advanced positioning questions. I fully get the "spin the enemies away from you" technique, but there are a few other questions that come up:

When I do spin the mobs, sometimes there is that player that is on my side that doesn't have positionals. Should I try to reposition, or just say "screw it" and it is their fault for getting hit (I had a BRD do this. Seemed odd).

When I lose aggro on ONE enemy I usually provoke/shield lob so I don't cleave the group, but if more than one got lost due to my healer going gunho on Medica 2 and regen right at the beginning of a pull, do I risk cleaving the group to try to go over to them and Flash a few times?

Thanks!

generally you should always run in front throughout the mobs (flashing) until you get to a proper spot with enough space to tank the mob-grp. most likely you'll run through the mobs and than spin yourself looking at the mob and your following members. if you stick them on one place, its generally the DDs task to positioning theirselves, especially rang DDs shouldn't have problems with that - your Brd was either lazy or just a noob hisself. But keep in mind that several DDs change their positioning in a fight due to their skill-toolkits f.e. Monks. Don't get confused they should know what they do, either they don't it's not your fault, just stay your ground.

If you lose hate on a mob because a overgeared healer throw out some aoe-heals, don't worry try to get them with shield & provoke followed by flash if they are in range. If you got the feeling that to many will break out of your control move and flash them right away. Most of the player will come straight for you if they got a mob, unexperienced player may run away... whats bad try to get them with shield/provoke - if you run to far you'll maybe lose the rest of the mob too.

Beware of provoke, because in comparison to shieldthrow (which generates hate on the mob itself), you have to give it a following punch because it will only set you on top of the enmity bar without generating additional hate. Most of the novice-tanks wonder why they lose a provoked mob instantly... - especially on bosses with tank swap mechanics this can end in pure chaos if you don't generate extra hate right after provoking them ^^'

Best bet is to tell them right away that your still in training and they should be focused a bit more than on an usual daily speed run. =)

cheers
Neela ^^

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Originally Posted by Skatedudeguy

Heya! I'm still trying to pick up the finer points of tanking (wanting to be a better healer so I've picked up tanking, PLD for now).

I'm having trouble with some more advanced positioning questions. I fully get the "spin the enemies away from you" technique, but there are a few other questions that come up:

When I do spin the mobs, sometimes there is that player that is on my side that doesn't have positionals. Should I try to reposition, or just say "screw it" and it is their fault for getting hit (I had a BRD do this. Seemed odd).

When I lose aggro on ONE enemy I usually provoke/shield lob so I don't cleave the group, but if more than one got lost due to my healer going gunho on Medica 2 and regen right at the beginning of a pull, do I risk cleaving the group to try to go over to them and Flash a few times?

Thanks!

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The finer parts are the most challenging ones in any game. Be it healers, tanks and DPS, they all have their own small details to pay attention to if you are pushing the limit.

That said, for any tank that is, every single position you take matters a lot in the larger scheme. In normal dungeons, it's easier to position yourself and the rest should follow how the tank does it. If someone stacks on you and get cleaved, very high chance that they deserve it so you shouldn't feel obliged to reposition again (obviously you can try to, but the player is at fault for doing so).

With regards to taking back aggro, cleave happens in an interval for the most part, that's your job as a tank to recognize if there is one soon. It's usually easier for tank to move and take back aggro, it sometimes gets really annoying to keep chasing the mob because that someone decides to shuffle around. When you lose aggro to anything, you should stay calm rather than trying to get the aggro ASAP. For multiple mobs, area skill aggro is the easiest to do, DRK and WAR has a lot of benefit to spam over other skills unlike PLD with the Flash spam (gets the job done but 0 damage = not optimal by any measurement). For boss fights (single target), you often want to get into the aggro combo before using Provoke to secure the aggro back, meaning you don't want to Provoke when you don't have anything prepared because aggro will keep bouncing off you and the other person, also how OT/MT swap works for the most part.

There are obviously more parts to the end of it but those depends heavily on your team mostly/partly because of damage optimisation, DPS checks aren't imposed in most contents, so those finer parts should never be discussed until you are ready.

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Originally Posted by Skatedudeguy

Heya! I'm still trying to pick up the finer points of tanking (wanting to be a better healer so I've picked up tanking, PLD for now).

I'm having trouble with some more advanced positioning questions. I fully get the "spin the enemies away from you" technique, but there are a few other questions that come up:

When I do spin the mobs, sometimes there is that player that is on my side that doesn't have positional. Should I try to re position, or just say "screw it" and it is their fault for getting hit (I had a BRD do this. Seemed odd).

When I lose aggro on ONE enemy I usually provoke/shield lob so I don't cleave the group, but if more than one got lost due to my healer going gunho on Medica 2 and regen right at the beginning of a pull, do I risk cleaving the group to try to go over to them and Flash a few times?

Thanks!

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As a tank you have to sometimes take charge of the run and ask for assistance when needed. here are some samples; DPS won't always position them selves unless they have some tanking experience , set your rotations to were you have control over and keep an eye on what you can stun, I find moves facing edge or walls help a lot. Side step is your friend and in some cases walking through them and back helps alot, just time their aoes patterns..and lastly, Tell your healer not to put healing dots on until you have pulled to avoid agro going after them. It's a basic 101 for healers but some still need a reminder specially if your a tank. Say pls and thank you will get you long ways in party morale. Raids however you pretty much have to be on your toes.

Neela, I'm a bit past those points now (need more finer points), I appreciate it though very much! With provoke, I usually try to go Provoke > Shield lob if they are far away (or proc'd second or third combo hit if close). I usually throw a flash in afterwards since I spent a few GCD time working on that mob. Any advice to clean that up?

Sarcatica, I can usually time out well when a cleave is going to happen, but seeing as I'm looking at this visually from a tank perspective it seems the priority is 1: Don't hurt anyone else in group if I move (maybe take it and use a CD if I absolutely must for just that hit versus saving for general mitigation rotation of CDs). 2: If I can move, I should have positioned myself that the melee DPS can have one flank and I spin the other way to avoid, then get right back in position.

Cont...

Lastly it seems that being calm and staying in one spot after losing aggro on one mob I should let the player react first (are they going to bring to me?), and then decide if I need to risk moving to get aggro back or not. I usually try to let my group know if we can adjust playstyle to make the run smoother, but I want to make it easier for them too!

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Originally Posted by Skatedudeguy

Lastly it seems that being calm and staying in one spot after losing aggro on one mob I should let the player react first (are they going to bring to me?), and then decide if I need to risk moving to get aggro back or not. I usually try to let my group know if we can adjust playstyle to make the run smoother, but I want to make it easier for them too!

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Honesty is the best policy, let them know your concern if your seeing to much, unless they lack common sense they should be understanding. I usually give them a warning if I see it to much or pls ask if you happen to lose hate not to run around but come near you.

As a monk, I usually just adapt my positioning to what the tank is doing. Very rarely have any problems with that.
The only thing being tanks, who keep the backs of mobs either in danger!puddles, or in AoEs (Gubal Library hard, boss1 comes to mind). We need both a rear and a flank, dangit. T.T
In general, based on what I see here, seems like you're well on your way to good tanking, buddy ^v^

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Originally Posted by Skatedudeguy

Neela, I'm a bit past those points now (need more finer points), I appreciate it though very much! With provoke, I usually try to go Provoke > Shield lob if they are far away (or proc'd second or third combo hit if close). I usually throw a flash in afterwards since I spent a few GCD time working on that mob. Any advice to clean that up?

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i would do it the other way around taking shield > provoke because like i said shield additionally increase aggro on the mob giving you more time to focus on the other mobs as well. Personally i just use provoke in an emergency matter. Also even if you got all mobs safe i would suggest to throw a flash here and there between your normal enmity rotation -> which will help to hold them all at once. Just mention that because there are still DDs who don't give a fuck which target in the mob has prio to be killed first. Oh and just wait for an high cls Blm or Smn... than there is no other option aside of buttonsmashing your flash skill ^^'

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Originally Posted by Skatedudeguy

Sarcatica, I can usually time out well when a cleave is going to happen, but seeing as I'm looking at this visually from a tank perspective it seems the priority is 1: Don't hurt anyone else in group if I move (maybe take it and use a CD if I absolutely must for just that hit versus saving for general mitigation rotation of CDs). 2: If I can move, I should have positioned myself that the melee DPS can have one flank and I spin the other way to avoid, then get right back in position.

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yeah this would be the way to go priority should be you > heal > melee > range. Sometimes it's worth to take a hit with or without a cd, or even to "sacrifice" a DD in the worst case - cause you musnt forget if you lose mob control or die it effects the whole party way more than the case only a DD would kiss the ground. And aoe =/= you will learn which aoe could be tanked without problems and which one will make it harder for the healer to compensate (f.e debuffs, heavy shots, etc).

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Originally Posted by Skatedudeguy

Lastly it seems that being calm and staying in one spot after losing aggro on one mob I should let the player react first (are they going to bring to me?), and then decide if I need to risk moving to get aggro back or not. I usually try to let my group know if we can adjust playstyle to make the run smoother, but I want to make it easier for them too!

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i would like to quote Aosha here "In general, based on what I see here, seems like you're well on your way to good tanking, buddy ^v^" - true : D


edit: oh and as a sidenote you can workaround the 1000 letter cap in this forum by just editing your post after reaching the maximum ^^

so long
Neela ^^

As a bard myself sometimes i have to position myself close to the group in order to get all the mobs into my quick nock aoe. So once you have the mobs in position try not to move them too much. ^^

yeah but actually you would spread quick nock from behind not from next to the tank ; )

Depends ob how the mobs are grouped up, some of the bigger mobs don't always cooperate. but yeah ideally.

Also depends on the tank. 2/3 have a radial aoe hate grab as their primary. If a tank is likely to lose hate being positioned behind them infront of the pack just outside of cleave range is ideal to allow easier recovery on hate and or keeping the pack together, as the mobs then never leave hate grab range even if they are stripped. They way to look at it is the dps location isnt your problem to worry about as a tank, its the mob location that matters to you. As others have stated keep them together, out of puddles of death, pointed away from the direction the party approached from, and where possible with exposed flank and rear.