The Red Mage Video Analysis and Theorycrafting thread.

Introduction

Welcome to my lengthy Red Mage Video Analysis and Theorycrafting thread. Although there appear to be other threads that discuss the reveal, I want to get more into the nitty-gritty details on what was revealed and the possibilities how the RDM could designed for Stormblood. As well as providing a bit of info on the history of the Red Mage job in various Final Fantasies.


Video

Right from the start of the video we get a panning push-in shot of the red mage starting right from his shoulder with a black and silver crest. In terms of lore, this crest has - as of yet - no known association revealed to us, however, there's a fairly good possibility that the red mage may have originated in one of Eorzea's past civilizations.

Seconds later, we see the red mage's weapon, a scarlet rapier and a red crystal. The weapon itself may be based off existing Final Fantasy weapons like the Madu. What's interesting here is the crystal ties into the existing lore behind black magic and thaumaturgy. Despite this, however, the video doesn't appear to show anything on the weapons indicating a 'natural' implement needed for conjury. Perhaps the sword is fitted with some core on its hilt or crossguard or pommel?

The video switches scenes and we quickly see a giant enemy scorpion and what appears to be the emote for the red mage's battle stance or /bstance. We know that /bstance differs depending on the gender, so I wonder what will be the female's /bstance be like?

We quickly see how the Red Mage utilizes the weapon(s) they wielding, combing the crystal into the hilt of the sword to form a staff and casting a quick spell. Unfortunately, we don't know what kind of spell this is, but we can assume its a thaumaturgy or black magic spell based on the color of the magic. This is followed by a quick cut to the rear of the red mage and the casting of another spell with a similar cast time. The next spell is an instant cast spell with a white glow, indicating a white magic spell. The spell seems to draw a beam of lighting directly at the enemy, but cut between the spell cast and the next sequence doesn't give us a very clear understanding of what happened.

What we do see, is the red mage holding the crystal, disconnected from the sword, and a beam of light eminating from the crystal to the enemy scorpion. Followed from there, a brief blue flash of light, indicating an instant ability is activated and the red mage lunges straight at the enemy sword, canceling the effect of the beam upon impact and then following up with a weapon skill that appears to show multiple thrusting attacks. A quick cut shows us a brief blue flash. again indicating an instant ability, the red mage back flips backward and at the apex of the jump, slices the air and sends a red arc of energy back at the enemy before landing. Then, reconnecting the sword with the crystal, activates a black magic spell triggering a number large and small explosions around the target.

The video ends after the red mage executes his victory pose emote or /vpose.

Analysis

So there are several things we can take from this, but most of what we saw highlights what the red mage slides have shown. A ranged DPS class with a hybrid of melee fighting and spellcasting abilities. With some abilities using high-speed positioning to quick get into and out of melee range. Capable of dealing massive damage by combing spells with Chainspell.

So to answer a basic question, "Why does the red mage need to fight at a distance?", the answer is fairly simple if you've ever played a mage class, and that's basically to avoid spell interruption. As any mage can tell you, it's much safer to have some distance from an enemy target to avoid melee cleaves and AOEs and auto-attack damage in order to safely cast spells and avoid the issue of interruptions while trying to cast. So the red mage's ability to move in and out through unique abilities gives him an edge in keeping his distance when he needs to cast and move in when he wants to engage the target.

So is the red mage more of a mage or a melee combantant? While the slides indicate that the red mage may be a ranged DPS, this may simply be for classification only. As the video gave us an equal number of ranged and melee abilitie (though one can argue that one of those melee abilities put a large distance between the mage and the target). I suspect that the RDM will have an equal number of both melee and magical abilities, but will be required to utilize both to be effective. I suspect that an effective RDM may start at a distance, and then close in to finish the opponent off, but I also believe they could be flexible enough to do the opposite and be just as effective.

So did the video give us an indication of the Chainspell ability? That's hard to say, but I don't think we saw it. From what was described in the slide, I get the sense that Chainspell may end up being something similar to a Machinist's Wildfire ability in that Chainspell is cast and places a buff on the caster. Then the RDM casts several spells over a fixed duration as "prep" or "storage" and then activates those spells through another ability or through the same ability. Still, I could be wrong.

So how will the red mage play in more detail? Is it weapon skillchain oriented like dragoons, ninja, dark knights and paladins? Or do they play more like the casters? My guess is that the RDM may play more like the BRD and the MCH with some mix of the traditonal melee. I suspect they will have one skillchain, but I also believe that their spell-line (and most abilities) will be function with proc-chances with different combinations with triggers that force melee or spellcasting to maximize damage. Keep in mind the FF14 is very much structured under the idea of managing rotations, and/or resources and I don't see the red mage trending too far from that style.

What sort of abilities will the red mage have? I suspect the usual; at least two dots, two to three area effect abilities, and at least two to four utility/defense abilities. Since the red mage will have to engage in melee range, I also suspect some form of health recovery (whether self or free-target), and is a mage, some form of MP recovery. There's a lot here they can work with despite some core necessities.

Legacy/signature abilities? That would depend on what some would define the red mage to be. In the past, when it came to developing and strengthening the red mage's uniqueness, SE often focused on its ability to cast spells, and more specifically, how quickly it could cast them. Red mages were prided not just on their versatility, but their ability to cast several spells at once through abilities like Double-cast or Dual Cast. Whereas black mages could cast a greater number and more powerful versions of spells, the red mage stuck to a limited set of core spells and could weave them together quickly and effeciently. In the time it'd take a BLM to cast Flare or Meteor, a RDM could cast two fires, heal two seperate allies with a single-target powered cure, and have Ramuh and Shiva dishing out Ice-cold lightning. A red mage was prided on the quality of doing a lot with little. And that can translate pretty well into FFXIV.

So I imagine we could see a red mage picking spells like Imperil to give other mages the benefit of Disembowel for casters. I could see the red mage speed casting through Chainspell Magic Burst, Quake, and Water and unleashing that to a small group of enemy targets. I could see the red mage being a good ally to have for speed runs and trials. All in all, I could see the RDM carving its own little niche with many players, but I don't think it'll be a popular job with everyone. And that's okay.

Lore

So we're told the RDM will appear in 2.0 areas and players can pick up the class as early as level 50 (tentative). We don't have much on the lore or the origins of the red mage, but given that the job has historically been a wielding of white and black magic, it makes me think that the red mage originates from one or two places in Eorzea.

That's Nym, or ancient Allag.

We saw that Nym was a victim of the Black Mages of Mhach and we saw the Amdapori had their own empire focusing on White Magic, but Nym, apparently existing at the same time as these two major nations utilized Scholars and Arcanima as their focus of magical study. It led to me to think that maybe Nym did study black and white magics, but under an umbrella coin term of red magic. Red magic may not be a strict form of conjury and thaumaturgy, or black and white magic. What Nymians discovered or researched, to them, may not even fit those descriptions. To them, red magic is similar, but altogether completely different from the black and white magic Mhach and Amdapor knew.

The other possibility, is that red mages are a lost art originating from Allag much like summoners, and researchers are only now discovering its secrets. Allagan research covered a wide variety of study, so it stands to reason they would try to know more about white and black magic and the efforts to combine the two forms.

Another, less developed possibility is that red mages are a relatively new idea of research, study, and experimentation and only know are the effects being studied. Or red mages are just slackers who never bothered to focus on one field of study and just picked up a smattering of knowledge from everywhere and ran with it.

We'll find out someday.

More to come...

i'm gonna take the lazy and effective route by waiting for the actual game to come out.

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Originally Posted by Dynza

So did the video give us an indication of the Chainspell ability? That's hard to say, but I don't think we saw it. From what was described in the slide, I get the sense that Chainspell may end up being something similar to a Machinist's Wildfire ability in that Chainspell is cast and places a buff on the caster. Then the RDM casts several spells over a fixed duration as "prep" or "storage" and then activates those spells through another ability or through the same ability. Still, I could be wrong.

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While this seems likely given what we've been told, it'd probably give the job terrible pacing, since Wildfire at least manages to flow into the MCH rotation (nevermind how restrictive it is and how much I dislike Wildfire). This sort of forces you slow down/stop just to start a Chainspell. Not to mention that dealing with mechanics would make it a pain since you'd have to stop to cast spells.

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So how will the red mage play in more detail? Is it weapon skillchain oriented like dragoons, ninja, dark knights and paladins? Or do they play more like the casters? My guess is that the RDM may play more like the BRD and the MCH with some mix of the traditonal melee. I suspect they will have one skillchain, but I also believe that their spell-line (and most abilities) will be function with proc-chances with different combinations with triggers that force melee or spellcasting to maximize damage. Keep in mind the FF14 is very much structured under the idea of managing rotations, and/or resources and I don't see the red mage trending too far from that style.

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The demo showed us a total of 7 skills (three casts, Lunge, Million Stab, gap opener, nuke at the end), which is 1/4 of the skills available to a job at lv60 (28 skills, 18 regular abilities and 10 quested abilities), so there's some room for stuff. That being said, something seems to proc when the RDM used Million Stab. I don't know if it's connected with the nuke at the end, but that was the only ability that procced anything out of what that RDM used. Which would mean nothing is proccing off combos (since no combos were shown).

I personally don't think the job would have much in the way of melee, as otherwise the keynotes would have emphasized the job having mobility instead of making up a term like fast positioning and describing the use of the sword as if it were secondary.

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Legacy/signature abilities? That would depend on what some would define the red mage to be. In the past, when it came to developing and strengthening the red mage's uniqueness, SE often focused on its ability to cast spells, and more specifically, how quickly it could cast them. Red mages were prided not just on their versatility, but their ability to cast several spells at once through abilities like Double-cast or Dual Cast. Whereas black mages could cast a greater number and more powerful versions of spells, the red mage stuck to a limited set of core spells and could weave them together quickly and efficiently. In the time it'd take a BLM to cast Flare or Meteor, a RDM could cast two fires, heal two seperate allies with a single-target powered cure, and have Ramuh and Shiva dishing out Ice-cold lightning. A red mage was prided on the quality of doing a lot with little. And that can translate pretty well into FFXIV.

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This sort of went out the window when they decided to invent Red Magic. They seem to want it to be its own magic school instead of playing on the fact that, as you said, RDM has "less" to work with due to limited access to black and white magic.

I also think the keynotes would have emphasized RDM's versatility instead of banking on the melee-ranged thing.

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Lore

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Looking at the AF, I noticed something interesting. A sort of dragonish motif in the embroidery on the outfit. The crystal itself also has a similar motif, which for some reason made me think of Hraesvelgr in Sorh Khai ("Dragons fight with both clawsword and spell"). It's certainly a stretch, but yeah.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The demo showed us a total of 7 skills (three casts, Lunge, Million Stab, gap opener, nuke at the end), which is 1/4 of the skills available to a job at lv60 (28 skills, 18 regular abilities and 10 quested abilities), so there's some room for stuff. That being said, something seems to proc when the RDM used Million Stab. I don't know if it's connected with the nuke at the end, but that was the only ability that procced anything out of what that RDM used. Which would mean nothing is proccing off combos (since no combos were shown).

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Based on the video we saw, my current guess is that the endgame rdm rotation will open with some DoT/debuff spells (debuffs that may or may not increase the amount of damage taken from the rdm's melee attacks) at the very beginning of it's rotation at which point they use their gap closer and get in to use their melee attacks which ends with the leap back/escape move (I think their melee moves will apply some sort of magic damage taken debuff along with the resources built up by using their melee attacks), at which point they switch to casting their big spells as a "finisher" to their combo. Then they reapply their DoTs/debuffs and go back to melee range.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Based on the video we saw, my current guess is that the endgame rdm rotation will open with some DoT/debuff spells (debuffs that may or may not increase the amount of damage taken from the rdm's melee attacks) at the very beginning of it's rotation at which point they use their gap closer and get in to use their melee attacks which ends with the leap back/escape move (I think their melee moves will apply some sort of magic damage taken debuff along with the resources built up by using their melee attacks), at which point they switch to casting their big spells as a "finisher" to their combo. Then they reapply their DoTs/debuffs and go back to melee range.

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i guess you're missing the fact that all RDM skills will be magic, since it's caster job (even the melee skills)
don't expect any mag vulnerability debuffs from combo, like there is with melee jobs...that would make foe req obsolete, and make casters OP as fck, since they already have the highest damage potential; imagine adding another semi-permanent 10% damage boost on top of that.
at most you'll see a bit of potency increase when using spells in order in spellchain combo. Maybe something along the line of Ruin III costing less MP in DW stance.
maybe melee skills cost TP while spells cost MP, so you can swap resources, a bit like DRK. or since apparently in SB jobs will get a new job-specific UI element, at high levels, it will be something new.
I'd say melee skills have stuff like slow/stun/knock

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Originally Posted by Radacci

i guess you're missing the fact that all RDM skills will be magic, since it's caster job (even the melee skills)
don't expect any mag vulnerability debuffs from combo, like there is with melee jobs...that would make foe req obsolete, and make casters OP as fck, since they already have the highest damage potential; imagine adding another semi-permanent 10% damage boost on top of that.

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Oh sorry, what I meant in my post was that the debuff applied would be increased damage taken from the individual RDM's spells/abilities or it would be some kind of personal buff like Heavy Thrust.

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Originally Posted by Radacci

don't expect any mag vulnerability debuffs from combo, like there is with melee jobs...that would make foe req obsolete,

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There is precedent. NIN's Dancing Edge has reduction to slashing resistance, and it did not make WAR's Storm's Path obsolete. I see no harm in adding another potential source to the game for reduction to magic resistance, so you don't feel obligated to bring along a BRD every time you have a magic heavy party. It would open up the game a bit for MCH, who fill most of the same niches a BRD does but don't bring the magic resistance reduction.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

While this seems likely given what we've been told, it'd probably give the job terrible pacing, since Wildfire at least manages to flow into the MCH rotation (nevermind how restrictive it is and how much I dislike Wildfire). This sort offorces you slow down/stop just to start a Chainspell. Not to mention that dealing with mechanics would make it a pain since you'd have to stop to cast spells.
The demo showed us a total of 7 skills (three casts, Lunge, Million Stab, gap opener, nuke at the end), which is 1/4 of the skills available to a job at lv60 (28 skills, 18 regular abilities and 10 quested abilities), so there's some room for stuff. That being said, something seems to proc when the RDM used Million Stab. I don't know if it's connected with the nuke at the end, but that was the only ability that procced anything out of what that RDM used. Which would mean nothing is proccing off combos (since no combos were shown).

I personally don't think the job would have much in the way of melee, as otherwise the keynotes would have emphasized the job having mobility instead of making up a term like fast positioning and describing the use of the sword as if it were secondary.
This sort of went out the window when they decided to invent Red Magic. They seem to want it to be its own magic school instead of playing on the fact that, as you said, RDM has "less" to work with due to limited access to black and white magic.

I also think the keynotes would have emphasized RDM's versatility instead of banking on the melee-ranged thing.
Looking at the AF, I noticed something interesting. A sort of dragonish motif in the embroidery on the outfit. The crystal itself also has a similar motif, which for some reason made me think of Hraesvelgr in Sorh Khai ("Dragons fight with both clawsword and spell"). It's certainly a stretch, but yeah.

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Suppose the first spells at the beginning of the combat roll, were Chainspell and the two spells that would be connected to it, and then suppose that the final spell in the roll (the magic burst) was the Chainspell activation. That's sort of how I'm imagining the ability works.

As for the proc-effect on the thrusting weapon skill, I believe the debuff there is heavy or some other debuff.

As for magic vulnerability, as mentioned, there's already precedent. Both the MCH and the BRD have abilities that weaken defenses against spells. The MCH also has an ability that reduces physical defense (or adds physical vulnerability) on enemy targets. So it is certainly possible for the red mage to pick up something similar.

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Originally Posted by Radacci

i guess you're missing the fact that all RDM skills will be magic, since it's caster job (even the melee skills)
don't expect any mag vulnerability debuffs from combo, like there is with melee jobs...that would make foe req obsolete, and make casters OP as fck, since they already have the highest damage potential; imagine adding another semi-permanent 10% damage boost on top of that.
at most you'll see a bit of potency increase when using spells in order in spellchain combo. Maybe something along the line of Ruin III costing less MP in DW stance.
maybe melee skills cost TP while spells cost MP, so you can swap resources, a bit like DRK. or since apparently in SB jobs will get a new job-specific UI element, at high levels, it will be something new.
I'd say melee skills have stuff like slow/stun/knock

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DO casters have the highest damage potential? I thought the ideal group composition was to actually just not take them.

I just wanted to point out, the fire skill the red mage is using in the video has the same animation as Flare Star from FF9

The Lore analysis hasn't included the Sharlayan Theory.

Essentially, given that Sharlayan has been characterized as the most advanced magical nation in Eorzea to the point the Garleans knew to fear them (Minfilia's words), and that we've seen examples of both Mhachi and Amdapori disciplines at work in the Sharlayan ruins (bound voidsent guardians in the Great Gubal Library, for example), as well as feats of magic from Sharlayan characters which broaches these fields (Y'shtola using a very White Magic looking spell fighting off Goblins in the Maker's Quarter during the MSQ), there is enough evidence to speculate that Sharlayan either discovered and revived the old arts of White and Black Magic in secret, or that Sharlayan was founded by White and Black Mages who survived the War of the Magi. A popular theory on that note is that the nation was founded by dissidents who fled the continent to study magic in peace, together, and that this is why Sharlayan is very set on not interfering in the course of history, but instead chronicling it.

The Red Mage outfit also bears strong resemblance to Sharlayan styles and themes, if you compare it to the dungeon gear from the Great Gubal Library, Shire Gear from Idyllshire, and the newer outfits of the Archons like Y'shtola, Alphinaud, and Alisae. The Magicked Crystal Medium will be the second weapon in the series that has a floating component, with the other weapon belonging to Astrologians, who also hail from Sharlayan.

A lot of players have also drawn parallels between Alisae's combat style and powers in 3.4 and similarities to Red Mage.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

A lot of players have also drawn parallels between Alisae's combat style and powers in 3.4 and similarities to Red Mage.

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A lot of players (including yourself) are grasping at straws, which is nothing new. Alisaie has nothing to do with Red Mage.

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Originally Posted by GMERC

A lot of players (including yourself) are grasping at straws, which is nothing new. Alisaie has nothing to do with Red Mage.

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A lot of players, including myself, would love to hear -YOUR- grand, 100% correct, factual, and unbiased view on what job best fits Alisae, given the use of magic with a sword as a weapon, no shield, and only one job using that combination at this time (RDM). Please do enlighten us pitiable fools who are so easily deluded by not sharing in your monumental intellect. Please do sprinkle your wisdom upon our ignorance, that we may attain the level of understanding only YOU, and YOU alone, have embraced.

Or I suppose you could quite being a passive-aggressive troll and actually contribute to threads you post in besides calling people wrong in a condescending manner, without any substance to your point of view.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

A lot of players, including myself, would love to hear -YOUR- grand, 100% correct, factual, and unbiased view on what job best fits Alisae, given the use of magic with a sword as a weapon, no shield, and only one job using that combination at this time (RDM). Please do enlighten us pitiable fools who are so easily deluded by not sharing in your monumental intellect. Please do sprinkle your wisdom upon our ignorance, that we may attain the level of understanding only YOU, and YOU alone, have embraced.

Or I suppose you could quite being a passive-aggressive troll and actually contribute to threads you post in besides calling people wrong in a condescending manner, without any substance to your point of view.

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Projecting much?

http://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/lds/p...png?1481871595
All I'm getting at is that Alisaie summons this sword from a book (only it's pink and glowing) and fights as a Paladin without a shield, not as a Spellcaster. Literally nothing she did had anything to do with the Red Mage we very clearly saw in action. Some folks are just way way way too fixated on "Sword + vague magical theming MUST = RED MAGE!!!"

As a reminder, I seem to recall folks swearing up and down back in Before the Fall that Ilberd MUST be a Red Mage / Mystic Knight just because he used Enfire in a cutscene. Don't forget the even sillier ones thinking Raubahn was going to have something to do with Dark Knight, either.

Thancred used to fight with a dagger, no shield, as a Gladiator. Then they added Rogue and suddenly he's dual-wielding daggers and performing feats of acrobatics we had not seen prior to that. Alisae was introduced to us as an Arcanist, holding a book much like her brother does. Then she summons a sword and starts combining swordsmanship with magic. Somehow you seem to think this constitutes a leap of logic. It's called, 'Speculation,' and, 'Deductive Reasoning.' Even the twins make note that while Alphinaud is a back-line combatant Alisae prefers to get up close and personal with her foes, not unlike how we've seen Red Mages will close gaps to make melee strikes.

But like I said, please do enlighten us as to which job you think Alisae is. I'd love to hear your reasoning.

http://www.omnibusjournal.com/wp-con...ie-960x540.jpg

Palace of the Dead weapon for Red Mage? Please Yoshi-P, it's a nice color. :D

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Palace of the Dead weapon for Red Mage? Please Yoshi-P, it's a nice color. :D

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As previously stated, that is a Gladiator sword, available to Twin Adder members. Additionally, even if they were to recycle that as a model for a RDM weapon (which they can't), Palace of the Dead Weaponry does not have textures, so it wouldn't look the same anyway.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

Thancred used to fight with a dagger, no shield, as a Gladiator. Then they added Rogue and suddenly he's dual-wielding daggers and performing feats of acrobatics we had not seen prior to that. Alisae was introduced to us as an Arcanist, holding a book much like her brother does. Then she summons a sword and starts combining swordsmanship with magic. Somehow you seem to think this constitutes a leap of logic. It's called, 'Speculation,' and, 'Deductive Reasoning.' Even the twins make note that while Alphinaud is a back-line combatant Alisae prefers to get up close and personal with her foes, not unlike how we've seen Red Mages will close gaps to make melee strikes.

But like I said, please do enlighten us as to which job you think Alisae is. I'd love to hear your reasoning.

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NPC characters, especially the more unique ones, have always played extremely fast and loose with the class / job system. You know this. I suppose I should next ask you to tell me which job Raubahn is.

I'll humor you even though these are different situations entirely, though. Thancred changed to rogue in a very clear, obvious call out to Ninja. He also employed Ninja animations and abilities, neither of which Alisaie did-- despite in so many silly eyes being the "hint" to Red Mage they believe parallels Thancred. The idea that Alisaie being a close quarters fighter is somehow part of this tie to RDM is also pretty misguided, now that we know Red Mage is in fact a spellcaster that fights predominately from range, only entering melee range for short bursts.

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Originally Posted by GMERC

The idea that Alisaie being a close quarters fighter is somehow part of this tie to RDM is also pretty misguided, now that we know Red Mage is in fact a spellcaster that fights predominately from range, only entering melee range for short bursts.

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Because all of the Red Mage skills are not only done, been added to the live servers, and are ready to go, but SE would also like to spoiler them by having an NPC use them before the PC gets a chance to even try them out? I mean, its not like Yugiri wasn't popping out Ninjitsu every other second. Oh, wait...

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Originally Posted by GMERC

... even if they were to recycle that as a model for a RDM weapon (which they can't)...

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Why can't they? Isn't that exactly what was done for several DRK weapons when they first came out? Just resized PLD weapons?

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

Why can't they? Isn't that exactly what was done for several DRK weapons when they first came out? Just resized PLD weapons?

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Hint: RDM Weapons come in two pieces.

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Originally Posted by GMERC

Hint: RDM Weapons come in two pieces.

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So... they use the base gladiator sword, and toss a crystal on. Doesn't seem impossible.

Also still waiting to hear your thoughts on what Job/Class Alisaie is, and your reasoning for it.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

So... they use the base gladiator sword, and toss a crystal on. Doesn't seem impossible.

Also still waiting to hear your thoughts on what Job/Class Alisaie is, and your reasoning for it.

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Gladiator or None. She doesn't adhere to any particular Class or Job in the game beyond using exclusively Gladiator abilities and animations. What Job is Y'shtola?

As for this strange desire for the devs to be willingly lazy about RDM weapon design, let's hope they know better.

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Originally Posted by GMERC

Gladiator or None. She doesn't adhere to any particular Class or Job in the game beyond using exclusively Gladiator abilities and animations. What Job is Y'shtola?

As for this strange desire for the devs to be willingly lazy about RDM weapon design, let's hope they know better.

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Wasn't so hard to express your speculation. Its logical and well reasoned. You should do that more often.

As for a, 'Strange desire for the devs to be willingly lazy about RDM weapon design,' I wouldn't say its a desire, just an option. Look at the PotD weapons. It's just existing items without textures and some color. I don't know what's lazier than that.

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Originally Posted by GMERC

As for this strange desire for the devs to be willingly lazy about RDM weapon design, let's hope they know better.

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Its not a desire for laziness, its an expectation of laziness. Completely different argument.

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Originally Posted by GMERC

As for this strange desire for the devs to be willingly lazy about RDM weapon design, let's hope they know better.

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What's lazy? Red mages have used swords forever. The crystal focus is to help distinguish them from gladiator swords and give a power source for their magic. Why is any of that lazy?

I honestly doubt that red mage will use gladiator swords due to the nature of how the Job system works, unless they intend on reintroducing the idea that Jobs come out of classes, which they didn't do for Heavensward (though this doesn't disqualify it as a thought). There's also no class that operates in a similar way. One might argue that summoner and scholar, kind of sort of do, but once the arcanist hits Job level, their weapons diverge. Yes, they're still books, but they're coded for specific Jobs. I doubt they would allow red mage, even with an off-hand, to borrow the gladiator mainhands in this way. My other personal issue with red mage using gladiator swords is that a red mage typically uses rapiers. While rapiers are indeed swords, and one-handed ones at that, they're pretty distinctly different from what gladiators use, which are implements typically intended for stabbing, not cutting. If we're to accept that a greatsword is separate from a shortsword due to not only their nature as weapons and their intended use, then surely we should also come to accept that a rapier should be distinctly be made different from gladiator weapons.

Also in regards to the NPCs, its rather clear that the major NPCs such as Raubahn, Ilberd, and any of the Archons operate on different principles than what we usually handle. It's to be expected, honestly, especially considering how the Archons all are experts in varying fields of magic that, Y'shtola for instance, carried a conjurer's wand and yet was able to cast an Astrologian spell. That being said, whatever Alisaie truly is should probably not be simplified into whatever we'll potentially get, nor should any of the other characters. While its true that Merlwyb had a gun, and we also got a gun, we're no closer to whatever Merlwyb is and she was completely irrelevant to machinistry as a whole. While I think it possible that characters can possess individual abilities that may foreshadow new content, I don't think we'll ever be given a straight up, this character is something you will possess in the coming expansion, before the mentor is even mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Amagiri

I honestly doubt that red mage will use gladiator swords due to the nature of how the Job system works, unless they intend on reintroducing the idea that Jobs come out of classes, which they didn't do for Heavensward (though this doesn't disqualify it as a thought). There's also no class that operates in a similar way. One might argue that summoner and scholar, kind of sort of do, but once the arcanist hits Job level, their weapons diverge. Yes, they're still books, but they're coded for specific Jobs. I doubt they would allow red mage, even with an off-hand, to borrow the gladiator mainhands in this way. My other personal issue with red mage using gladiator swords is that a red mage typically uses rapiers. While rapiers are indeed swords, and one-handed ones at that, they're pretty distinctly different from what gladiators use, which are implements typically intended for stabbing, not cutting. If we're to accept that a greatsword is separate from a shortsword due to not only their nature as weapons and their intended use, then surely we should also come to accept that a rapier should be distinctly be made different from gladiator weapons.

Also in regards to the NPCs, its rather clear that the major NPCs such as Raubahn, Ilberd, and any of the Archons operate on different principles than what we usually handle. It's to be expected, honestly, especially considering how the Archons all are experts in varying fields of magic that, Y'shtola for instance, carried a conjurer's wand and yet was able to cast an Astrologian spell. That being said, whatever Alisaie truly is should probably not be simplified into whatever we'll potentially get, nor should any of the other characters. While its true that Merlwyb had a gun, and we also got a gun, we're no closer to whatever Merlwyb is and she was completely irrelevant to machinistry as a whole. While I think it possible that characters can possess individual abilities that may foreshadow new content, I don't think we'll ever be given a straight up, this character is something you will possess in the coming expansion, before the mentor is even mentioned.

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I don't think the RDM will use GLD swords, I just expect that some of their blades will share models with them.

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

I don't think the RDM will use GLD swords, I just expect that some of their blades will share models with them.

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Fair enough, then. I must've misinterpreted what you meant. In that case, I agree. Some of their weapons may share models.

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Originally Posted by Amagiri

Fair enough, then. I must've misinterpreted what you meant. In that case, I agree. Some of their weapons may share models.

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I also expect GLD's few remaining Saber style weapons to be passed to, if not copied by Samurai if that class is added.

That will probably be the case, like how a lot of the ninja weapon assets also were from Gladiator back when they were introduced.

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Originally Posted by Amagiri

a lot of the ninja weapon assets also were from Gladiator

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I think fewer than ten.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

The Lore analysis hasn't included the Sharlayan Theory.

Essentially, given that Sharlayan has been characterized as the most advanced magical nation in Eorzea to the point the Garleans knew to fear them (Minfilia's words), and that we've seen examples of both Mhachi and Amdapori disciplines at work in the Sharlayan ruins (bound voidsent guardians in the Great Gubal Library, for example), as well as feats of magic from Sharlayan characters which broaches these fields (Y'shtola using a very White Magic looking spell fighting off Goblins in the Maker's Quarter during the MSQ), there is enough evidence to speculate that Sharlayan either discovered and revived the old arts of White and Black Magic in secret, or that Sharlayan was founded by White and Black Mages who survived the War of the Magi. A popular theory on that note is that the nation was founded by dissidents who fled the continent to study magic in peace, together, and that this is why Sharlayan is very set on not interfering in the course of history, but instead chronicling it.

The Red Mage outfit also bears strong resemblance to Sharlayan styles and themes, if you compare it to the dungeon gear from the Great Gubal Library, Shire Gear from Idyllshire, and the newer outfits of the Archons like Y'shtola, Alphinaud, and Alisae. The Magicked Crystal Medium will be the second weapon in the series that has a floating component, with the other weapon belonging to Astrologians, who also hail from Sharlayan.

A lot of players have also drawn parallels between Alisae's combat style and powers in 3.4 and similarities to Red Mage.

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It's certainly possible that Red Magic could be based on Sharlayan study, but it always felt, to me, that Sharlayan's were far more scholarly in magic study and probably wouldn't be the type to employ the same tactics as red mages.

That and... so much already seems to originate from Sharlayan study as is (Astrologian, notwithstanding), or that many current NPCs utilize Sharlayan practice of magic.


Equipment Thoughts

With so much talk about equipment, I went ahead and looked into legacy red mage equipment. While history has shown that red mages have been able to equip some of the strongest armor defense-wise (compatible with warriors of the past), I suspect that FF14's red mage may very well end up with DoW ranged gear classification. Meaning they would end up sharing some similar gear types as machinists and bards do.

The reason is simply because the current ranged group is shared only by two other jobs, red mage is classified as ranged DPS, and it seems the easist place for him to fit. All other classifications are still possible, but I feel like that SE might want to avoid bloating the equipment types any further given how many jobs will be in the expansion.

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Originally Posted by Dynza

It's certainly possible that Red Magic could be based on Sharlayan study, but it always felt, to me, that Sharlayan's were far more scholarly in magic study and probably wouldn't be the type to employ the same tactics as red mages.

That and... so much already seems to originate from Sharlayan study as is (Astrologian, notwithstanding), or that many current NPCs utilize Sharlayan practice of magic.

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Krill has the Red mage mark on her jacket, it's like a clasp. It's in the shape of the red mage aether crystal thing so probably Sharlayan origin

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Originally Posted by Dynza

The reason is simply because the current ranged group is shared only by two other jobs, red mage is classified as ranged DPS, and it seems the easist place for him to fit. All other classifications are still possible, but I feel like that SE might want to avoid bloating the equipment types any further given how many jobs will be in the expansion.

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There are 4 ranged dps jobs... 2 each of physical and magical dps. RDM seems to be both of those things but since their physical damage comes from melee strikes (or seems to anyway), I'd probably lump them in with BLM and SMN as a caster dps specifically.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

There are 4 ranged dps jobs... 2 each of physical and magical dps. RDM seems to be both of those things but since their physical damage comes from melee strikes (or seems to anyway), I'd probably lump them in with BLM and SMN as a caster dps specifically.

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I tend to agree with this. I mean ninja shares right side gear with brd/mch, so it makes sense to have rdm share with blm/smn, at least right side wise. I kind of feel rdm may have its own gear though, similar to ninja and how it's similar but separate from brd/mch.

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Originally Posted by Dynza

It's certainly possible that Red Magic could be based on Sharlayan study, but it always felt, to me, that Sharlayan's were far more scholarly in magic study and probably wouldn't be the type to employ the same tactics as red mages.

That and... so much already seems to originate from Sharlayan study as is (Astrologian, notwithstanding), or that many current NPCs utilize Sharlayan practice of magic.

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Well, that would be because Sharlayan is -the- magical nation on the planet at this point in time (that we are aware of). That isn't to say other nations don't have their own mages or various magical studies, but it seems that Sharlayan takes these fields, and brings them home as well, to study and learn and teach.

While Sharlayan is certainly a scholarly nation of mages, it is -still- a nation and would still require a force to protect itself. You can't just throw a bunch of WHM/BLM/SMN/SCH at an invading army, can you? You need someone capable of engaging the enemy at melee range as well. That's certainly not the highlight of the Red Mage job, but it is still a component nonetheless. The idea that Red Mages were conceptualized and brought into existence in Sharlayan as a means of protecting the Homeland seems fairly logical.

Might not be the case, of course, we'll have to wait and see, but there is some logic to it.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

Well, that would be because Sharlayan is -the- magical nation on the planet at this point in time (that we are aware of). That isn't to say other nations don't have their own mages or various magical studies, but it seems that Sharlayan takes these fields, and brings them home as well, to study and learn and teach.
While Sharlayan is certainly a scholarly nation of mages, it is -still- a nation and would still require a force to protect itself. You can't just throw a bunch of WHM/BLM/SMN/SCH at an invading army, can you? You need someone capable of engaging the enemy at melee range as well. That's certainly not the highlight of the Red Mage job, but it is still a component nonetheless. The idea that Red Mages were conceptualized and brought into existence in Sharlayan as a means of protecting the Homeland seems fairly logical.

Might not be the case, of course, we'll have to wait and see, but there is some logic to it.

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Of course, obviously.

Red Mage History

The red mage is one of the oldest and more iconic jobs in FF history. Though it's iconic look today identifies it as itself, this wasn't always the case. The original red mage design, and its gameplay were more akin to the DnD Bard and its art, based on that of a wandering minstrel or adventurer. Only in more recent incarnations has the red mage been given the designator as a warlock or fencer. Even then, these titles didn't appear until late in the series.

FF5 is the first game where the role of the red mage was expanded upon (because simply casting low to mid level magic wasn't enough) and given more specialization. The Dual Cast ability made its first appearance here and has since become the iconic red mage ability where applicable. In the Final Fantasy Tactics Advance games, Dual Cast or Double Cast abilities were among some of the strongest abilities worth learning, and through these games red mages became somewhat synomous with fencing weapons. In FF11, the red mage was a core starting job that balanced everything in equal measure, but more or less excelled in debuffs and support magic. Though red mages here could also utilize spells that were once Mystic Knight or Spell Fencer abilities, this wasn't a major focus for the RDM. Obviously, the red mage in FF11 used a number of fencing weapons, but weren't excluded from many other swords or weapons.

Finally, as the FF series saw more sequels and the red mage began to appear in more games, the job started moving away from generalized role and moved into a more specialized role. This also meant that the job that once had the ability to wield some of same weapons and heavy armor as warriors, became more focused towards spellcasting and lighter and more specialized equipment. While the job may have once been considered a jack-of-all-trades and master-of-none, that's not really true of the modern interpretations. That also holds true for FF14's red mage. Beyond its iconic look, don't expect the job to come packing too much of its legacy, and instead look foward to what a modern FF14-style red mage could bring to its legacy. It may not be able to heal, but it certainly could bring new inspiration for the future of the job in later sequels.

of all that you said id only slightly disagree with the FF version, but I agree with your entire rest of the argument that it doesnt matter, For one I have to put my foot in my mouth, SE finally did it, put RDM the classic line up is out, I am ok now with whatever weird jobs they want to toss at us. I figured RDM would be lore centric into being able to utilize both conjury and thaumaturgy but in a different way once, like thm was the use of altering energies to an elemental form where conjury was able to utilize elemental energy to form, and a red mage might be able to alter elemental energies into a desired effect or form by working with both concepts, possibly as constibles after the war of magi for refugees in both mhach and amdapori that came to the conclusion that neither were so righteous as to not pretty much cause calamity to the world. But even then Icant wait to see what iteration of this job they give us. the trailer looked awesome, and didnt show us all the skills