AST Card cycles help

Hey guys,

I've been leveling my AST recently and I've been wondering what a good way of proceeding with cards would be.
There are many guides out there that will tell you what card to use on whom etc.. etc.. But there are many combinations and I was wondering what everyone's preferences were.
It's a bit of a nebulous subject for me and I'm guessing there are too many flavors to extrapolate a specific rule but basically here's how I've been proceeding:

1) redraw until I can combine full party royal road with speed or damage buff
2) if I fail the above because of RNG I feel like adding a draw cooldown to obtain 1) is still better than applying another buff to the group or a damage/speed buff to a single player. So I just wait for another draw
3) I'll only use TP/mana cards on users when they really need them. (usually longer fights). And often I'll prefer royal roading them if I feel like group wide buff outweighs the benefit for that one user (which I feel is almost always, short of a healer being OOM or there not being enough time in a fight to take advantage of another draw)
4) if I get a protection card I'll use it on a tank only if I can't redraw.

I feel like I'm painting myself in a corner but at the same time I have a hard time seeing how applying a card (even royal road buffed/longer) to a single player outweighs a group wide one.

I understand that speed on the group could mean increased use of mana/TP. But that's kind of a non-issue as it's still preferable to no buff at all.
Maybe it screws up some rotations? I'm not sure.

You're help in educating me would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

Balance: God card, save this or use it (if you already have a Balance saved pre-pull). AoE Royal Road in 8 mans, Extended/Enhanced in 4mans. You always wanna buff your saved Balance before using it, unless you're in a really awkward situation where you NEED the instant 20% damage boost to avoid a wipe. You need a parser to effectively use this card, and it is quite possible that a single player with enhanced/ext Balance will outweigh 7 others with half balance, depending on skill gap. I don't use a parser, so I just base my Balance usage on what I've seen throughout a fight. Tons of Fire 4s, Deathflares? Give it to the caster, they're actually doing something correctly.

Arrow: Mini balance, but apparently screws with melees, so I don't bother giving it to them. I give it to BLM, Bard/MCH, SMN, and myself in that order.

Spear: Complete garbage in the majority of situations. Only valuable if you get an extra use of a cooldown throughout an entire fight. Too much communication and foresight required for me to make use of it in 4 mans PUGs if I'm not with a friend.

Ewer: Royal Road or give it to the WHM/a BRD with low MP who is singing Foe/SMN (extra Ruin 3 is a DPS gain)/yourself (you shouldn't need Ewer unless people are dying a ton).

Spire: RR, or give it to an AoEing Melee/Ranged physical DPS.

Bole: I love this card, but my tanks don't seem to take advantage of it (by leaving tank stance after aggro's done with). I wouldn't save it in a raid, but I'm not afraid to take advantage of it in the rare instance that I could possibly need to heal in 4 man content. Spreading it in an AoE is stronger than Sacred Soil (because of the duration) but uh... questionable in practice.

Spear can always be thrown to BRD/MCH/SMN if you want to give it to someone without having to communicate. High changes they are going to use a cooldown.

Alright, some tricks I use:

1.) Card Dropping: If I draw Spire or Ewer, and I've already Burnt one and have my AoE set up, and if NO one needs the recovery, I'll just right click the buff and drop the card, I'd rather get rid of it than wait for it to expire so I can save the AoE buff.

2.) Drawing before Expanding: There aren't always situations where you can use a Expanded/Card effectively right away, so it's not uncommon to have Expanded ready and be Holding a card a then all of a sudden Draw's ready for use. When this happens I like to Draw again and hope for the same card or another good card, if I get it, I'll Expand that. This removes the possibility of me wasting a card. Say I have Expanded/Balance, if I cast that and then instantly draw, and come up with another Balance, I have maybe a 1-2 second window between Balance expiring and Spread coming off of cooldown, which can lead to just losing the card if it's an intense fight.

(Doubling, yayyy)

Quick note: An Astrologian that's throwing out some kind of buff regularly is better than one that fishes for a very specific combination of cards that they like.

Now, addressing the whole Expanded vs Enhanced & Extended, everyone tends to think Balance when these buffs are brought up. If a boss has some particularly tough Tank-Busters that go on for a while, I'm more than happy to give a Tank Extended-Bole, this is particularly useful in endgame content where bosses follow Tank Busters with some raid wide damage. Enhanced Bole could just as easily be used to cut a significant amount of damage off of skills like Tyrfing (From the lovely Zurvan boss,) pair it with Disable for added effect (the skill is underused really.)

So, when I'm thinking of Enhanced and Extended I do not think of Balance as being my only card, these Royal Roads are far better when paired with the other cards in your arsenal. I could describe every combo but post limits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EaMett

3) I'll only use TP/mana cards on users when they really need them. (usually longer fights). And often I'll prefer royal roading them if I feel like group wide buff outweighs the benefit for that one user (which I feel is almost always, short of a healer being OOM or there not being enough time in a fight to take advantage of another draw)

If you have physical DDs, you can throw Spire at them during trash pulls, before they need it.

Ewer on BRD, even if MP is almost full, is a thing if at least 1/3 or 2/7 of the other party members is magical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EaMett

I understand that speed on the group could mean increased use of mana/TP. But that's kind of a non-issue as it's still preferable to no buff at all.
Maybe it screws up some rotations? I'm not sure.

From 50 onward, a surprise Arrow on a BLM during trash mobs will throw him off and have him sitting there doing nothing for 3-6 seconds because of the cooldown on Transpose. If he's expecting the haste, he can avoid this by inserting a Freeze, but he has to expect it beforehand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EaMett

I feel like I'm painting myself in a corner but at the same time I have a hard time seeing how applying a card (even royal road buffed/longer) to a single player outweighs a group wide one.

In a light party, Extended Anything gives you the greatest effect per Draw out of any Royal Road effect. 200% effect on one optimal target is better than 200% effect distributed among the group including non optimal targets, and is 100% effect per Draw.

In a light party, throwing away even a single card to fish for Expanded Balance/Bole/Arrow reduces the effectiveness to 89% per Draw at best (292% effect with Celestial Opposition and Time Dilation, over three Draws). Extended Balance/Bole/Arrow is 100% effect per Draw, without blowing Opposition and Dilation. A single card with Opposition and Dilation is a whopping 183%(Balance/Bole/Arrow) or 266%(Ewer/Spire) per draw.

In a full party, if you throw away a single card while fishing for Expanded Balance/Bole/Arrow; this is 133% effect per Draw. Throwing away two cards would reduce this to 100% effect per Draw, in which case you might as well have used an Extended Balance/Bole/Arrow on an optimal target or even just a single card.

In a full party if you have Celestial Opposition and Time Dilation available, you can throw away three cards and still be at 112% effect per Draw; however, Extended Balance/Bole/Arrow with Opposition and Dilation is 141% effect per Draw, which beats Expanded Balance/Bole/Arrow if you throw away any more than one card while fishing.

So don't worry about that perfect setup. If you're out of combat and still getting ready to start, of course it's better to fish. But once combat has begun, you can get more out of the cards with less fishing and more using, even if the cards you're using are just single cards.

Here are some maths. A few combinations are not useful, or absurdaly situational, but they're included for completeness. Spear calculations are not included, and fall somewhere between the Balance/Bole/Arrow and Spear/Ewer effectiveness.

Light Party Maths

Code:

Any single card [100% effect] Extended (1 target × 200% duration × 100% potency = 200% effect) [100% per Draw] Expanded (4 targets × 100% duration × 50% potency = 200% effect) [100% per Draw] Enhanced (1 target × 100% duration × 150% potency = 150% effect) [ 75% per Draw] -- Balance/Bole/Arrow with Time Dilation Single card [150% effect] Extended (1 target × 200% duration × 100% potency + 1 target × 50% duration × 100% potency = 250% effect) [125% per Draw -- worse than single card] Expanded (4 targets × 100% duration × 50% potency + 1 target × 50% duration × 50% potency = 225% effect) [112% per Draw -- worse] Enhanced (1 target × 100% duration × 150% potency + 1 target × 50% duration × 150% potency = 225% effect) [112% per Draw -- worse] Ewer/Spire with Time Dilation Single card [200% effect] Extended (1 target × 200% duration × 100% potency + 1 target × 100% duration × 100% potency = 300% effect) [150% per Draw -- worse] Expanded (4 targets × 100% duration × 50% potency + 1 target × 100% duration × 50% potency = 250% effect) [125% per Draw -- worse] Enhanced (1 target × 100% duration × 150% potency + 1 target × 100% duration × 150% potency = 300% effect) [150% per Draw -- worse] -- Balance/Bole/Arrow with Celestial Opposition Single card [133% effect] Extended (1 target × 200% duration × 100% potency + 1 target × 33% duration × 100% potency = 233% effect) [116% per Draw -- worse] Expanded (4 targets × 100% duration × 50% potency + 4 targets × 33% duration × 50% potency = 266% effect) [133% per Draw -- equal to or worse than single card] Enhanced (1 target × 100% duration × 150% potency + 1 target × 33% duration × 150% potency = 200% effect) [100% per Draw -- worse] Ewer/Spire with Celestial Opposition Single card [166% effect] Extended (1 target × 200% duration × 100% potency + 1 target × 66% duration × 100% potency = 266% effect) [133% per Draw -- worse] Expanded (4 targets × 100% duration × 50% potency + 4 targets × 66% duration × 50% potency = 333% effect) [166% per Draw -- equal to or worse than single card] Enhanced (1 target × 100% duration × 150% potency + 1 target × 66% duration × 150% potency = 250% effect) [125% per Draw -- worse] -- Balance/Bole/Arrow with Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition Single card [183% effect] Extended (1 target × 200% duration × 100% potency + 1 target × 50% duration × 100% potency + 1 target × 33% duration × 100% potency = 283% effect) [142% per Draw -- worse] Expanded (4 targets × 100% duration × 50% potency + 1 target × 50% duration × 50% potency + 4 targets × 33% duration × 50% potency = 292% effect) [146% per Draw -- worse] Enhanced (1 target × 100% duration × 150% potency + 1 target × 50% duration × 150% potency + 1 target × 33% duration × 150% potency = 275% effect) [137% per Draw -- worse] Ewer/Spire with Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition Single card [266% effect] Extended (1 target × 200% duration × 100% potency + 1 target × 100% duration × 100% potency + 1 target × 66% duration × 100% potency = 366% effect) [183% per Draw -- worse] Expanded (4 targets × 100% duration × 50% potency + 1 target × 100% duration × 50% potency + 4 targets × 66% duration × 50% potency = 383% effect) [192% per Draw -- worse] Enhanced (1 target × 100% duration × 150% potency + 1 target × 100% duration × 150% potency + 1 target × 66% duration × 150% potency = 400% effect) [200% per Draw -- worse]

Full Party Maths (same as light party except for Expanded cards)

Code:

Any single card [100% effect] Extended (1 target × 200% duration × 100% potency = 200% effect) [100% per Draw] Expanded (8 targets × 100% duration × 50% potency = 400% effect) [200% per Draw] [Discard one card: 133% per Draw] [Discard two cards: 100% per Draw] Enhanced (1 target × 100% duration × 150% potency = 150% effect) [ 75% per Draw] -- Balance/Bole/Arrow with Time Dilation Single card [150% effect] Extended (1 target × 200% duration × 100% potency + 1 target × 50% duration × 100% potency = 250% effect) [125% per Draw -- worse] Expanded (8 targets × 100% duration × 50% potency + 1 target × 50% duration × 50% potency = 425% effect) [212% per Draw -- better] [Discard one card: 142% per Draw -- worse] Enhanced (1 target × 100% duration × 150% potency + 1 target × 50% duration × 150% potency = 225% effect) [112% per Draw -- worse] Ewer/Spire with Time Dilation Single card [200% effect] Extended (1 target × 200% duration × 100% potency + 1 target × 100% duration × 100% potency = 300% effect) [150% per Draw -- worse] Expanded (8 targets × 100% duration × 50% potency + 1 target × 100% duration × 50% potency = 450% effect) [225% per Draw -- better] [Discard one card: 150% per Draw -- worse] Enhanced (1 target × 100% duration × 150% potency + 1 target × 100% duration × 150% potency = 300% effect) [150% per Draw -- worse] -- Balance/Bole/Arrow with Celestial Opposition Single card [133% effect] Extended (1 target × 200% duration × 100% potency + 1 target × 33% duration × 100% potency = 233% effect) [116% per Draw -- worse] Expanded (8 targets × 100% duration × 50% potency + 8 targets × 33% duration × 50% potency = 533% effect) [266% per Draw -- better] [Discard one card: 177% per Draw -- better] [Discard two cards: 133% per Draw -- equal to or worse than single card] Enhanced (1 target × 100% duration × 150% potency + 1 target × 33% duration × 150% potency = 200% effect) [100% per Draw -- worse] Ewer/Spire with Celestial Opposition Single card [166% effect] Extended (1 target × 200% duration × 100% potency + 1 target × 66% duration × 100% potency = 266% effect) [133% per Draw -- worse] Expanded (8 targets × 100% duration × 50% potency + 8 targets × 66% duration × 50% potency = 666% effect) [333% per Draw -- better] [Discard one card: 222% per Draw -- better] [Discard two cards: 166% per Draw -- equal to or worse than single card] Enhanced (1 target × 100% duration × 150% potency + 1 target × 66% duration × 150% potency = 250% effect) [125% per Draw -- worse] -- Balance/Bole/Arrow with Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition Single card [183% effect] Extended (1 target × 200% duration × 100% potency + 1 target × 50% duration × 100% potency + 1 target × 33% duration × 100% potency = 283% effect) [141% per Draw -- worse] Expanded (8 targets × 100% duration × 50% potency + 1 target × 50% duration × 50% potency + 8 targets × 33% duration × 50% potency = 558% effect) [279% per Draw -- better] [Discard one card: 186% per Draw -- marginally better than single card] [Discard two cards: 140% per Draw -- worse] Enhanced (1 target × 100% duration × 150% potency + 1 target × 50% duration × 150% potency + 1 target × 33% duration × 150% potency = 275% effect) [137% per Draw -- worse] Ewer/Spire with Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition Single card [266% effect] Extended (1 target × 200% duration × 100% potency + 1 target × 100% duration × 100% potency + 1 target × 66% duration × 100% potency = 366% effect) [183% per Draw -- worse] Expanded (8 targets × 100% duration × 50% potency + 1 target × 100% duration × 50% potency + 8 targets × 66% duration × 50% potency = 716% effect) [358% per Draw -- better] [Discard one card: 238% per Draw -- worse] Enhanced (1 target × 100% duration × 150% potency + 1 target × 100% duration × 150% potency + 1 target × 66% duration × 150% potency = 400% effect) [200% per Draw -- worse]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrocco

Quick note: An Astrologian that's throwing out some kind of buff regularly is better than one that fishes for a very specific combination of cards that they like.

I highly agree with this. I feel that if you're not throwing out cards frequently enough, then what's the point of being an AST in the first place? That is unless you're in a double AST group because that is a mess to deal with without communication.

Not sure if this was said, but for regular dungeon runs it depends on the job, gear and skill for who gets what card, with balance if you have mages with a physical dps usually give it to the mages( if you see a mnk and blm mage, that's a tough question lol) if you have 2 mages, give it to smn when it's during mobs and give it to blm when it's during the boss

For 4 man dungeons I generally make use of my cards as I get them, RRing spear or arrow when I get them and they won't be of significant use to a party member, and using the extended RR on a balance or bole - rarely I'll use it on an ever if I or the tank really needs it.
I never burn ewer or spire for RR in light parties, the overall effect, imho, isn't worth the reduced potency. I either redraw if I don't need it or pop it on someone who does.
Sometimes, if the tank isn't taking much damage, I burn bole so I can fish for a more powerful balance, or bole if I expect the tank to be taking damage soon. Enhanced ewer or spire is usually a waste, though enhanced arrow on a BLM is incredible.

In 8 mans, in contrast, I almost always try to get an ewer or spire to burn for expanded. Expanded bole on a full party is very very satosfying, and expanded bole can be useful for aoe damage going out, like odin's bleeding spears. I almost never use expanded spear or arrow in 8 mans.

Did some more maths in response to a question from someone in the Novice Network regarding Extended Balance versus Expanded Balance with Celestial Opposition.

Code:

Let a, b, c, and d be the four party members' DPS values. Extended Balance, without Celestial Opposition (a DMG/s + b DMG/s + c DMG/s + 1.2 d DMG/s) × 30 s (Balance) + (a DMG/s + b DMG/s + c DMG/s + 1.2 d DMG/s) × 30 s (Extended) + (a DMG/s + b DMG/s + c DMG/s + d DMG/s) × 10 s (No buff) = 70 (a + b + c) DMG + 82 d DMG Light Party Expanded Balance, without Celestial opposition ( a DMG/s + b DMG/s + c DMG/s + d DMG/s) × 30 s (No buff) + (1.1 a DMG/s + 1.1 b DMG/s + 1.1 c DMG/s + 1.1 d DMG/s) × 30 s (Expanded Balance) + ( a DMG/s + b DMG/s + c DMG/s + d DMG/s) × 10 s (No buff) = 73 (a + b + c + d) DMG = 73 (a + b + c) DMG + 73 d DMG Extended Balance, with Celestial Opposition (a DMG/s + b DMG/s + c DMG/s + 1.2 d DMG/s) × 30 s (Balance) + (a DMG/s + b DMG/s + c DMG/s + 1.2 d DMG/s) × 30 s (Extended) + (a DMG/s + b DMG/s + c DMG/s + 1.2 d DMG/s) × 10 s (Celestial Opposition) = 70 (a + b + c + 1.2 d) DMG = 70 (a + b + c) DMG + 84 d DMG Light Party Expanded Balance, with Celestial Opposition ( a DMG/s + b DMG/s + c DMG/s + d DMG/s) × 30 s (No buff) + (1.1 a DMG/s + 1.1 b DMG/s + 1.1 c DMG/s + 1.1 d DMG/s) × 30 s (Expanded Balance) + (1.1 a DMG/s + 1.1 b DMG/s + 1.1 c DMG/s + 1.1 d DMG/s) × 10 s (Celestial Opposition) = 74 (a + b + c + d) DMG = 74 (a + b + c) DMG + 74 d DMG Should I Extended Balance (no Celestial Opposition), or Expanded Balance (no Celestial Opposition)? Extended Balance only: 70 (a + b + c) DMG + 82 d DMG Expanded Balance only: 73 (a + b + c) DMG + 73 d DMG ============================= + 3 (a + b + c) DMG - 9 d DMG The two are equal when 3 (a + b + c) = 9 d 3/9 (a + b + c) = d 0.3333 (a + b + c) = d Let T0 be total of party's DPS values. T0 = a + b + c + d T0 = a + b + c + 0.3333 (a + b + c) T0 = 1.3333 (a + b + c) d = 0.3333 (a + b + c) d = x T0 x = d / T0 x = 0.3333 / 1.3333 x = 0.25 Should I Extended Balance (no Celestial Opposition), or Expanded Balance with Celestial Opposition? Extended Balance only: 70 (a + b + c) DMG + 82 d DMG Expanded Balance + Opposition: 74 (a + b + c) DMG + 74 d DMG ============================= + 4 (a + b + c) DMG - 8 d DMG The two are equal when 4 (a + b + c) = 8 d 4/8 (a + b + c) = d 0.5 (a + b + c) = d Let T1 be total of party's DPS values. T1 = a + b + c + d T1 = a + b + c + 0.5 (a + b + c) T1 = 1.5 (a + b + c) d = 0.5 (a + b + c) d = x T1 x = d / T1 x = 0.5 / 1.5 x = 0.3333 Should I Extended Balance with Celestial Opposition, or Expanded Balance with Celestial Opposition? Extended Balance + Opposition: 70 (a + b + c) DMG + 84 d DMG Expanded Balance + Opposition: 74 (a + b + c) DMG + 74 d DMG ============================= + 4 (a + b + c) DMG - 10 d DMG The two are equal when 4 (a + b + c) = 10 d 4/10 (a + b + c) = d 0.4 (a + b + c) = d Let T2 be total of party's DPS values. T2 = a + b + c + d T2 = a + b + c + 0.4 (a + b + c) T2 = 1.4 (a + b + c) d = 0.4 (a + b + c) d = x T2 x = d / T2 x = 0.4 / 1.4 x = 0.2857

Noting that Extended Balance and serial Balance + Balance are mathematically equivalent, this leads to...

Summary

Code:

Is Celestial Opposition Available? | +-- Yes -- Is one person doing more than 28.57% of total party damage? | | | +-- Yes: Use Balances and Extended Balances on best DD | | | +-- No: Use Expanded Balance with Celestial Opposition | | +-- No -- Is one person doing more than 25% of total party damage? | +-- Yes: Use Balances and Extended Balances on best DD | +-- No: Use Expanded Balance

So as you can see, for Expanded Balance to be worthwhile in a light party, all four party members need to be doing pretty much equal shares of the party damage. As this is rarely the case, it's better to avoid Expanding your Balances in a light party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rongway

Did some more maths in response to a question from someone in the Novice Network regarding Extended Balance versus Expanded Balance with Celestial Opposition.

I've done something similar like 8 months back. I'll just drop a link here as an addition to yours. As I haven't compared expanded with Extended/Enhanced as expanded has significantly more variables due to it's AoE nature.
Original topic
Post with the spreadsheet in question
Or just click on this link for the spreadsheet if you can't be bothered to skim through the topic:
http://i.imgur.com/qFFxkTn.png

Here's some good info/discussion to look at as well pertaining to the card system of AST.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ayers_content/