OT WAR Rotation

I play a PLD and I recently joined a new static. It seems like in this static that the OT keeps pulling a stupid amount of hate. I used to be able to comfortably go into Sword Oath after the first RoH in my other static, but this one I can't seem to switch right away. He jumps up to 2nd in hate and quickly overtakes me if I'm not back in Shield Oath. Is this supposed to happen? He's the first WAR I've seen do this in my groups and I even have the higher ilvl weapon.

If there is no NIN, tell him not to do BB combo at opener, or when swap from him to you again. Else you have to keep doing Halone in SwO after the first one.

Naw, this is not supposed to happen, aggro-management is a group effort, and if the OT war is close to grabbing aggro from the MT, it's the OT's job to not use Butcher's Block, but rather spam the Storms eye Combo repeatedly. Butcher's Block in the OT role should be an exception and really only used in the Offtank role if you are sure you wont steal aggro from the MT. Most top Warriors in good statics with good killtimes use way more storm's eyes than butcher's block, but that information hasnt reached every warrior out there yet.
Everytime their Butcher's block forces a halone from the pld to keep aggro, the WAR gains 20 potency from using Butchers over Storm's Eye and the PLD loses 90 whopping potency having to use rage of halone, which is a raid dps loss and plain selfish.

So yeah, tell your War to watch his aggro bar, and use more Storm's eye instead of Butcher's block if he's close in top aggro.

OT just needs to pay more attention to his aggro. Frequently after tank swaps I have to stick to storms eye/storms path unless our ninja shadewalkers. BB can be worked back in when the MT has a bigger lead on aggro.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

BB can be worked back in when the MT has a bigger lead on aggro.

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Actually it depends, if your co-tank is a drk you shouldn't do that, since they don't have aggro multipliers on their dps rotation, so the aggro lead would just shrink over time unless he uses power slash multiple times even after the tank swap. That minuscule aggro lead from shadewalker and/or the 1-2 power slashes done after tank swap will naturally be overtaken by the war's higher dps even without using butcher's block, so you shouldn't add to their problems by using butcher's block. The only time you should use butcher's block after tank swap is when something resets your aggro, like a12s timegates or a7s jails.

I think I just said I don't use BB combo after a tank swap? Also, my co-tank is a PLD.

If your co-tank is pld then they'll eventually build up more aggro lead thanks to savage blade being in their dps rotation, so eventually yes you'll be able to fit some butcher's blocks.

On the other hand in drk's case they don't build up more aggro lead, so you can think of it as a ticking time bomb (until you overtake them, since even without extra aggro multiplier you'll likely outdps them, and using butcher's block will just shorten that time). From my experience even 2+ mins after my group's drk provokes the boss off me, I can still take aggro back using a single butcher's block.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just want to clarify that you may or may not get that chance to work back butcher's block later after a tank swap if your co-tank is drk.

Just think DRK as boosted animal on aggro because for DRK to push the best DPS, everyone has to be conscious about their aggro at some point. You can even say that top tier statics 'cater' to DRK that goes as far as saving smokescreen for tank swaps and WAR to an extent not touching BB combo for a long time.

As mentioned, PLD has way less issue on sustaining aggro. NIN still has a huge role on opener, so without it you are going to have to do RoH in ShO and for every opener against great bursts (blm whm mch brd) and WAR opener you are likely to top up aggro with RoH in SwO.

generally speaking right after a tankswap/right as the fight starts up my WAR just alternates between eye and path for about 2 rotations before he knows I've got enough emnity off to allow him to BB/Eye spam, granted I normally do my opener as RoH -> goring -> RoH, but that's just because I like to be extra sure I've got the boss's attention

It seems like the exact issue is that he's incorporating BB into his berserk windows/openers. I am totally in favour of spamming storm's eye when both tanks are close in aggro, such as after a swap, but using butcher's block when the case is otherwise is fine (unless with DRK). However, using BB while in berserk should be counted as a no-no because not only does it pose a risk for aggro, but it actually lowers WAR dps.

I've tried looking for ways to use BB while in berserk, there's no way to juggle having the SE debuff on, applying fracture, using 2-3 fell cleaves, AND BB as well. It doesn't work unless you have a TON of skill speed+fey wind, except your average WAR goes for stacking crit and det. This means you drop the debuff and you lose potency until you can reapply it again, lost dps for you AND your co-tank. The extra 20 pot gained from using BB over SE is not worth the lost 10% on the next GCDs. Your WAR co-tank uses BB because he thinks he's making the best choice for the most damage, but if you can explain what I listed, he'll change his mind. Tell him to just spam SE during zerk and it'll all be fine.

Welp, I did a Berserked double fell cleave right after the opening tank swap on A10S last night and for the very first time my MT couldn't hold aggro after that swap, and I got my face punched into the opposite side of my body. :( our ninja just went DRG for our new BRD, so, yeah.

It's the WAR's job to watch their aggro...I was careless bc we've never had issues at that exact swap before. A PLD who subbed for us once did, though.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

However, using BB while in berserk should be counted as a no-no because not only does it pose a risk for aggro, but it actually lowers WAR dps.

I've tried looking for ways to use BB while in berserk, there's no way to juggle having the SE debuff on, applying fracture, using 2-3 fell cleaves, AND BB as well.

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No, this is absolutely wrong. As long as your last combo before berserk is storm's eye, there is a way to use butcher's block without dropping eye. For example:

(assume 2+ stacks) Heavy Swing > Maim > Storm's Eye (Potion) > Heavy Swing (Internal Release + Berserk) > Fell Cleave (Infuriate) > Fell Cleave (Vengeance/Raw Intuition) > Skull Sunder > Butcher's Block > Heavy Swing > Maim > Storm's Eye > Fracture > Fell Cleave

The common mistake made by many warriors is weaving fracture during the 2x cleaves part of the rotation, which means weaving 2x cleaves, 1x fracture, 1x heavy swing, 1x skull sunder, 1x butcher's block between two storm's eye combos, those are 6 gcds, i.e. equivalent to weaving two full combos between two storm's eye combos. Eye debuff will drop unless you have very high skill speed. But if you check the rotation I wrote above, you move fracture until after you reapplied eye debuff, so there's no risk of it dropping. Granted, you'll miss internal release and potion on your fracture, but dropping eye debuff as you said would be a worse dps loss. As long as you only fit 5 gcds between two storm's eye combos, it's safe.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

BB stuff

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As true as this is, the difference in DPS is highly minimal due to the Fracture being moved to the end like you mentioned. It's better to just play it safe unless they actually let you pull the boss in which case BB your heart out (til the swap).

Yeah it's usually only worth using when you're not using potion (on cd) or when you're pulling the boss (with shadewalker's help and prepull infuriate).

Perhaps I should have been more specific. There's no way to use BB if you're going to place fracture where it'll gain optimal buffs. If fracture is going to miss that much buffs, then it still looks like a DPS loss to use BB in berserk windows for the deceptive 20 pot gain. How is it a mistake to use fracture during the best time?

Having potion up for fracture is probably around 5% gain from 300 potency, which is like 15-ish? Don't forget that the 20 potency gain from butcher's block combo is also buffed by potion/internal release. As Spooky said it's pretty much a negligible difference. I use the rotation I posted earlier mostly when I pull the boss or when I'm with DF tanks who stay in tank stance very long so aggro is not an issue. If there's even a remote chance that you might have aggro issue, butcher's block is never worth it.

Another good example where you can use that rotation is where there are mechanics that reset your aggro, such as a7s jail or a12s timegate. I can use butcher's block quite often in a12s since I'm holding boss aggro until after first stasis, and after timegate I'm back to 0 aggro. In other savage fights, not so much.

if you are close to getting aggro the overall base dps is storm eye no matter what until they get on a lead with aggro then do your normal rotation