A different question from the other one; I didn't want to hijack. Anyways.
I'm pretty sure I get Elidibus' game here - he's inserting Unulkalhai into the Scions, having sent the kid on the notion that "The Source is in peril!" (while presumably, and conveniently, leaving Zodiark out of the whole thing). That makes sense; it's crafty and underhanded and juuuust ambiguously antagonistic enough to be something he'd do.
But then, right before he's heartily welcomed into the Scions with open arms, Unulkalhai just casually (or as casually as is possible, given the situation) lets it drop that "the Ascian Elidibus" is this master of his.
Now, we know Elidibus. We know him by NAME, and even if we didn't, Unulkalhai outright says that he's an Ascian. Shouldn't this have...I dunno, given us pause? It's completely ignored by everybody present! Even if some weren't aware of Elidibus - Y'Shtola (possible), Krile (believable) - Urianger DEFINITELY knows him, and obviously we do as well.
Did I miss something? Is Elidibus suddenly not a concern of ours, to the point where we'll welcome an actual disciple of his into our midst without discussion or commentary or even reaction? Did Unukalhai disavow his master at some point and I've just forgotten? Is this just an oversight by the writers, who assumed that we'd fill in certain blanks on our own? What's going on here?
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/58/58b6...861c5ece40.jpg
Unukalhai and his Master [3.5 Triad Spoilers]
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01-19-2017, 08:54 AMHinoto-no-RyujiUnukalhai and his Master [3.5 Triad Spoilers]
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01-19-2017, 09:07 AMNaria
Yeah, I'm bit stumped by this a well. I don't think that Unukalhai was working for Elidibus was news to Urianger though. Urianger introduced him in the first place and at the time he was "working" with Elidibus himself. I also recall him saying something along the lines that he trusted Unukalhai for now b/c we shared interests in stopping the Triad. Yes we we bonded with Unukalhai during the Triad storyline and all, but the Scions have been stabbed in the back before--it is weird that no one made any comment. I'm also fairly confused about Elidibus's game, with one hand he is giving us aid to stop the Triad and on with other he is giving the Griffin dragon eyes to power a summoning.
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01-19-2017, 09:14 AMCGMidlander
Elidibus probably isn't a bad guy. At least, he hasn't shown the same kind of overt malevolence Lahabrea and friends had. (It seems to be that his thing is about balance, rather than good/bad)
He'll probably be fleshed out more in the future. I can't wait. -
01-19-2017, 10:05 AMAnonymoose
I, too, didn't like the idea that he implied that he was renouncing his master's works without actually doing so.
It's confusing for us because Elidibus uses valid premises. If the balance of any world tips hard and true, it is lost to void. Void is the antithesis of existence. No one wants nonexistence (yet). Well, okay, Xande. But other than that.
Yet I believe that Elidibus is avoiding speaking his conclusions. So long as he can convince people he cares about balance, his service to the Dark seems as "necessary" as the times he's acted in favor of the Light. However, Zodiark wants existence, too, and Elidibus is steadfast in his loyalty to the Dark. Until we're willing to accept that the will of the Dark has a benevolent outlook on mortal life, I cannot trust Elidibus - the literal emissary of the Crystal of Darkness.
He cares about balance because void is useless to Zodiark, because void is a threat to Zodiark, because energy siphoned to Zodiark will hasten his rebirth. In service to that, he wipes away entire dimensions that might stably co-exist and wants us to believe it's the right thing to do; that this aberration of nature is a threat to the fabric of reality. For all we know it could be "beautifully broken" with the reins of history in the hands of man for the rest of time if only the Crystals stopped rocking the boat. If we could force Zodiark into silence, Hydaelyn might be willing to sit out and let Her children prosper.
Moreover, Zodiark's thing is "Soul", but mortal-corporeal Life and the "Star", as far as we know, is Hydaelyn's bag. I'm not sure Eli is on board. We, Her children, might be aberrations of nature, as well. So I can't bring myself to trust the guy. But I've been wrong before.
The way it's implied that he was misleading the Warriors of Darkness I feel like confirms my doubts to some degree. As far as I can tell, he was using the Warriors of Darkness to gain a Rejoining, leading them on with tales of how those souls will return to the Lifestream and be born again. But did he not just want to empower Zodiark? The whole "New God" plan seems like an unnecessary addendum if he just wanted to "save" the aether of the First. Zodiark has not been proven to love the Lifestream just yet. (Maybe he does! Plot twist!) But Eli seemed just fine with mortals permanently "changing" in 2.1.
DIGRESSION: I still dream that that path will go off the rails, too.
We're posed for him to bring Zodiark back forsooth; funnel rejoined aether and Source faith directly to him via whatever the Chrysalis is (a ripped seam in existence left where He was expelled, the center of the Fathercrystal within the moon?). But I think it'd be fun if he went full madman and tried to reboot the entire universe in his own image. (Muahaha! TIIIIME COOOMMMPRESSSIIIOOONNN!) -
01-19-2017, 10:15 AMZhaneX
Personally I think it's because, whether or not Elidibus himself is or not, Unukalhai is clearly dedicated to his Master's supposed purpose of "Balance". The Scions have no reason to distrust this notion either, as none of them, not even Urianger, are likely aware of Elidibus' more antagonistic actions; ie. Giving Nidhogg's Eyes to the Griffon.
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01-19-2017, 11:03 AMTheodric
I suspect that the Scions are starting to realise that Hydaelyn is a liability. It took Urianger scheming to get real answers from Hydaelyn which confirmed Elidibus' concerns as being valid. If Urianger had not done that and the Warrior of Light had simply destroyed the Ascians one by one...that would have led to a flood of Light that would destroy the Source. We know from the Warriors of Darkness and the Void that too much Light and too much Dark are both equally as bad.
I think, ultimately, Hydaelyn and Zodiark are going to need to merge or be sealed away as they're both basically parasites seeking to battle for control. -
01-19-2017, 11:55 AMHinoto-no-Ryuji
Thanks for the input, guys! :D
I just wonder what cause we have to trust that purpose, is all - especially to the point where we'd just let an Ascian disciple in without even a bit of discussion. I know it was probably a matter of tying things up nice and quickly and we're just expected to fill in the gaps, but it seems to be one hell of a gap, and it marred my enjoyment of what was otherwise a really solid bit of story content. I kinda feel like it could come back to bite us as bad as tossing the Eyes off the Steps of Faith seems to have.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZhaneX
The Triad, should they have escaped, could also have ultimately served as a unifier (as indeed they did, albeit did on a smaller scale at the end); conflict that exploits local, modern politics are probably more reliable for escalating into a Rejoining. As such, maybe he figured the loss of the Triad as a means of achieving a Rejoining was an acceptable sacrifice for getting a sleeper agent into our group (assuming that is indeed what Unulkalhai is), especially given all the other seeds of discord and strife being sown? That makes the most sense to me, at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naria
Elidibus is less openly malevolent, but his goal seems to ultimately still be the revival of Zodiark, and all his actions (save the Triad stuff) follow those of the other Ascians: cause strife on the Source to force a Rejoining. He definitely thinks he's doing right by the world by reviving Zodiark, and time will tell if that's true, but his actions are no less immediately destructive than those of his underlings. I trust him about as far as I can throw him - he's certainly being very underhanded about something that supposedly benefits the greater good.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGMidlander
What's weird is that you'd think empowering Zodiark would involve preserving the Shards as much as it does forcing Rejoinings, since the Shards are a necessary part of that and can be lost due to their imbalance, yet Eli didn't seem to be taking any steps to halt the loss of their world to Light. Sure, he was happy that our intervention ultimately resulted in that, but he seemed to be more concerned with using its inhabitants to cause a Rejoining.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
Maybe he was hoping that their Shard would be absorbed before it was lost completely. Or maybe the Ascians can't do anything about the actual balance (especially if it's as far gone as the First was) and he was just cutting his losses.
Is the Flood of Light a problem for us, though? I was under the impression that was more of an issue for the Shards, their inhabitants, and the Ascians who need those shards balanced enough for a Rejoining.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
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01-19-2017, 12:11 PMAnonymooseThis point could use some exploring, I think; my biases might be preventing me from seeing the whole of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
Forgive me if it sounds like I'm challenging you more than I'm inviting myself to be challenged:
Isn't this blaming the victim, a bit? What action does Hydaelyn ever take during an Astral Era? If left alone, the Flood of Light doesn't seem like it would ever even be a potential threat. The Ascians (responding to the fact that Zodiark cannot act) show up sowing discord and causing Calamities and because it might swing back the other way if Hydaelyn defends herself, we blame Her?
To Elaborate:The Sixth Astral Era went on just fine for over a thousand years. (Assuming 1.0 is still canon) "The Paragons" - Ascians in disguise - came to the beast tribes and warned them that the filthy, faithless city-states would invite Darkness to destroy them all and that they could defend themselves from that threat, and the Empire, by learning to summon their gods. Then the Reaper(s) - Ascians out of disguise - started attacking the tribes as if it fulfilled "The Paragons" warnings, prompting the tribes to attack the cities in revenge and demonstrate to the Garlean Empire what a massive threat to the planet (primals) was entrenching itself in Eorzea and make them desperate to invade, leading directly to the fall of Ala Mhigo and the Battle of Silvertear Skies. The latter was a massive aetheric disturbance, and paved the way for more primals. We're months from seeing what effects the fall of Ala Mhigo will have.
Do we have any reason to think Hydaelyn would ever have done anything that tipped the scales towards a Flood of Light if none of this had occurred? That the Warriors of Light might respond to the presence of shadow by casting bright Light until it destabilizes things is a reaction, no? Can we really say She's as bad as Zodiark?
I'm having a lot of trouble seeing it from that angle. Does it require the assumption that she unjustly cast Zodiark out in the first place? If that we're true, I'd drop my defense entirely, since it'd just be one long chain of dominoes from that.
I think this is where the complexity of the plan can hide some of its brilliance, lol. (I mean, unless I'm just seeing things where they don't exist.) Elidibus had seen the fall of The Thirteenth, so he had some idea what was happening and why and was able to prepare for it. By turning the Hydaelyn's champions against Her (with a false binary of void or rejoining), he was attempting to beat the clock. He'd get them to cause a Calamity here and score a last-second victory for Zodiark by funneling all of The First to him, when, as Urianger showed, that wasn't even the only choice in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji
If I read it correctly, it was all one big clockwork scheme - the Ishgardian smugglers, the Griffin, the Warriors of Darkness, Urianger (or so he thought), Unukalhai, all ensuring that The First would feed Zodiark (putting down super-powered primals, inspiring more powerful primals, escalating conflict towards Calamity), the Beast Tribes would abandon their gods in favor of another (by seeing their super-powered primals put down), and a huge war would spark. Elidibus put the First on the back burner (thinking he can just reclaim that prize at a later date) and is moving on with "plan new god" and "plan big-ass war", anyway. Urianger usurped a third of the entire plan for his own ends and saved the First.
Unukalhai's part was to keep the Warrior of Light focused on the Warring Triad. They would have upended the chess board entirely - three primals of nigh infinite power suddenly either running amok or in the hands of the Empire? Too unpredictable. Better to wipe them off the table and proceed otherwise. -
01-19-2017, 02:24 PMAnonymoose
Apologies for the double-post, but I went back and did some more digging on the OP topic.
The sentiment is consistent across the four languages: Because Elidibus is preventing the world from succumbing to void and/or oblivion, he is playing the role of an arbitrator or mediator between the Light and the Dark. However, Urianger suspects his motivations aren't entirely laudable.
To aid in preventing the Source from being hit with a Flood (just Calamities, of course), Unukalhai was sent to us. The child tortures himself because was born too late, given the Echo too young, to find comrades and lead the Warriors of Light to victory. Thus the idea of saving this world is extremely attractive to him. It's not said outright, but I read it as "I said I'd save this world, and that's what I'm going to do; Elidibus or no Elidibus."
I think the Scions have faith that if Eli's motives go sideways, the kid will break with him. He wants to save his friends' world. -
01-19-2017, 03:23 PMHinoto-no-RyujiDouble the Moose Post, double the fun! That does make a bit more sense now, even if it is more left to subtext than I'd like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
It'll be pretty interesting to see what comes of this - at some point, Elidibus and Unulkalhai are bound to be thrown into opposition with each other, considering the former's definition of "saving the world" (ie, resurrect Zodiark) utilizes such an incredibly destructive process that it's unlikely to line up with the latter's (or, really, anybody else's). Which, in turn, makes me suspicious as to what role Unulkalhai is meant to serve as a member of the Scions. I'm also curious exactly how prominent Unulkalhai will be as a member, given the sidequest nature of the Warring Triad, but I guess only time will tell. -
01-19-2017, 05:12 PMBelhiThis was my take too. His motivations at their root weren't driven by loyalty to Elidibus or Zodiark but to balance. Frankly that probably works for Elidibus just fine because for Elidibus that is what he wants from Unikalhai.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
In truth I get the feeling Unikalhai doesn't know much about the Ascians agenda outside of maintaining balance. He likely doesn't even know how much if any the Ascians might have played a role in the voidification of his world. In this regard I think Unikalhai fits probably closer into the role of Warriors of Darkness, a tool of the Ascians, rather than an Ascian himself.
I wonder how old Unikalhai actually is though. He takes the form and many mannerisms that seem to belong to a youth, giving us the vibe we are his senior, but the 13th world must have fallen into a void a pretty long time ago. Unless he spent along time in a form of stasis in between worlds, he would be way older than any of the Scions. -
01-20-2017, 03:09 AMIbiI was wondering about this myself, especially once you take the Shadows of Mhach stuff into account. It's possible I've missed/forgotten something key in all those, so someone please correct me if I'm obviously wrong anywhere here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belhi
We know voidsent in general must have been around on the Source for a minimum of 15 centuries (given that's how long Diabolos says he's been waiting to take his revenge).
Unukalhai says during his post-Zurvan exposition that "The Voidsent you encounter here in this realm are the twisted remnants of once mortal beings who know on what motes of life force remain...". Remarks about in-game characters being unreliable narrators aside, it's noteworthy that he says "The Voidsent" rather than "Some of the Voidsent" or something similar, because it implies that all Voidsent are from The Thirteenth.
That, in turn, implies that the Thirteenth fell to the Void at least a millennia and a half ago but, as Belhi says above, Unukalhai clearly doesn't appear to be 1500+ years old.
I can come up with at least five possible explanations:
1. Unukalhai is lying to us about something: This seems unlikely, given how he generally acts towards us, but it's not impossible. He may also not be aware he's not telling the truth.
2. Unukalhai has been in some sort of stasis: This seems like the easiest explanation, but also the least interesting.
3. Voidsent have the power to transcend time in some manner: If Voidsent could travel into the past (either intentionally or through some quirk of summoning, it could explain how they were able to found on the Source even before The Thirteenth fell to the Void.
4. Ascians have the power to manipulate/transcend time: If Elidibus could manipulate time, he could being Unukalhai to where he needed him. However, if they Ascians had such capabilities, it seems like they'd make more use of them to avoid things like, say, being killed by the Warrior of Light.
5. Time doesn't flow the same way across all the Reflections: Perhaps 1500+ years ago on the Source simply doesn't directly correspond to 1500+ years ago on the Thirteenth. Perhaps there's something specific about the Thirteenth having fallen to the Void that places it outside the flow of time. -
01-20-2017, 04:28 AMPArcher
Allagans used the Voidsent in experiments (Naga are a product of this, I believe. Think it's in ARF void science is mentioned).
The Thirteenth was lost at least 5 millenia ago, likely more.
I'd bet our new Scion was in a temporal stasis. -
01-20-2017, 04:55 AMHorseBoots
Not exactly a huge reflection on Unukalhai's character but...
I wasn't the only one who noticed he looks almost exactly like Luneth (The main kid out of the 4 in FFIII) with his ponytail down, right? It's a nice nod considering how much the Void has to do with the Crystal Tower and everything. -
01-20-2017, 05:07 AMNariaThere is another another possibility for Unukalhai (which relates to the other Warring Triad thread), that he like the Warriors of Darkness shed his body in order to come to the Source and is possessing either a person or a corpse (which brings up another matter--Unukalhai is likely in possession of a very powerful and old Crystal of Light). He looks like a kid because that is what he looked like when he died and he his projecting that form like the Sahagin Priest in "Through the Maelstrom". He has the mannerisms of child because that is what the world sees (and likely Eli treats him as) and therefor he has never needed to change his behavior. Self-doubt is not just the purview of children, and he certainly doesn't always act like a child. For all we know he has been on the Source since the Void was created Pre-Third Astral (which really wouldn't make sense with the idea that he does not really understand what an Ascian is). I suppose he could have just been wherever Ascians go when they loose/can't hold corporeal form/aren't on a Shard. Ugh, I wish they had giving us a bit more detail besides "yes, I am what you think I am, but we are friends so its good, right?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibi