People are already speedrunning Sohm Al (Hard)

Including spoiling newbies on mechanics and kicking them.

And it has only been a few hours.

Interestingly, I didn't see this in Baelsar's Wall.

Putting Sohm Al (Hard) in the relic quest may have been a terrible decision.

Speed ran Baelsar's Wall as MCH, my mate a WHM and with 2 Japanese players. No communication. All 4 got achievement at end.

Did Sohm Al with some FC friends immediately for the Anima. Big Pulls all the way through.
Only part I had any trouble with (As a Tank) was the penultimate pull. Too many large-size mobs, difficult to control. Gonna take that one slow in the future.

I already guessed that by the time I get home from work the PF will be full of Zurvan EX parties that demand you see a video and have been past blah blah phase and three wipe disband. So this is no surprise to me.

I need someone to explain the fun of speed running everything the game has to offer to me. I legit don't understand.

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Originally Posted by Kanitezz

I need someone to explain the fun of speed running everything the game has to offer to me. I legit don't understand.

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Personally I just prefer speedrunning dungeons because they're all boring AF and I don't want to do them, but you know, tomes and all.

My very first run of Sohm Al today was with 3 others in cross-world PF, and we decided to just big pull everything we could right off the bat. Complete blind run for all of us, and we made it through with no hiccups. The 2 big toads before the first boss were annoying because they collided with other mobs and pushed them off the steam geysers, but that was it. Sohm Al HM was vertainly designed to be sped run. Baelsar's Wall feel like a 4 man version of Praet with it's pacing

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Originally Posted by Kanitezz

I need someone to explain the fun of speed running everything the game has to offer to me. I legit don't understand.

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They roll out dungeons to be accessible to anyone and everyone and many many players are vastly overgeared for their difficulty. This leads to two options for those of us with stronger gear... you can take it slow and never have even the slightest hiccup to engage you or you could speed run it and rarely have something mildly exciting occur. The added benefit of the latter is that you can squeeze more duties into the time you have to play if they don't take as long. The only detractor is that the party might wipe at which point there is 0 penalty other than going back to the start and having to teleport to where you just were and try again. A wipe can make a dungeon longer than it would have been if it was speed run but usually still not longer than a 1 pack at a time method.

TL;DR: Lots of people outgear dungeons at release, there's benefits to be gained from a speed run and practically 0 detractors.

There is no reason to not speedrun it. It's dead easy on day 1.

It's not a speedrun anymore. It's just how you do things. Sohm Al (hard) is very deliberately designed for you to be pulling to the wall every time. SE is not dumb. They know how people play dungeons now, and they design around it. So if you're not doing that, you're just bad. It's not elitism, it's literally you not playing the game as effectively as you're expected to.

It's not a very challenging dungeon.

I think that if the party's up to snuff, we're level 60 ilvl 250 at LEAST... we should be speedrunning when possible.

Well square did try to prevent mass pulls in some of the 2.3-2.5 dungeons via doors, keys and switches (and so people will pull up to those dungeon mechanics). But the community did not take kindly to that. Especially those that had mid-dungeon cutscenes (Praetorium and Castrum). So now we have dungeons that at most hav 2-3 doors/keys/switches/revealing path(s) and very very short cutscenes in dungeons. Or dungeons that play cutscenes upon exiting dungeons.

First time running solo DF,speed run all the way an got a great time an 2 commendation.
Speed runs are not bad, they add more challenge! But you need the team for that.
I usually test the group in the first set of mobs if we get a fast kill then I know dps is on top an I push all the way from there

so pulling 2 trash mobs is now speed running???

Whenever I tank, I normally speed run the first part, and then judging on what others do, I'll either continue or damper it just a bit. I haven't tanked the two new dungeons yet (you can blame Anima for that one), but the mobs in it seem less intensive than say the last big pull of Great Gubal Library Hard.

i mean just listen to the bgm of the dungeon, how do you NOT speed run? Pumps you up

I am not surprised unfortunately..this happens literally every patch and it's worse with expansion. Just today my husband and I got into Baelsar's and the tank left immediately upon seeing 3/4 new people. Nothing you can really do about elitists except try to ignore them and pray that you don't have to deal with them in anything you try running. It should die down in a week or so..

I too wish they wouldn't be like that but it's anywhere you go.

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Originally Posted by RoseOfTheRaven

I am not surprised unfortunately..this happens literally every patch and it's worse with expansion. Just today my husband and I got into Baelsar's and the tank left immediately upon seeing 3/4 new people. Nothing you can really do about elitists except try to ignore them and pray that you don't have to deal with them in anything you try running. It should die down in a week or so...

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I very seriously considered spamming expert dungeons this week to just rack up first-time bonuses. I can't imagine leaving a dungeon because someone was new. That's insane.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

i mean just listen to the bgm of the dungeon, how do you NOT speed run? Pumps you up

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That BGM is something out of Star Ocean.

Sohm Al was pretty easy. Got into that and the Wall a few hours after the servers had come back online. With both the dungeons my first parties had a tough time with the final bosses. More so at the Wall. "Final Boss" wooped us, we died at getting it to just under 50% lol. My first time running content without a guide for once, which was exciting, I really enjoy it haha. Paying attention to the boss abilities, figuring out what it's doing. Guess I'm just a nerd. xD

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Originally Posted by RoseOfTheRaven

I am not surprised unfortunately..this happens literally every patch and it's worse with expansion. Just today my husband and I got into Baelsar's and the tank left immediately upon seeing 3/4 new people. Nothing you can really do about elitists except try to ignore them and pray that you don't have to deal with them in anything you try running. It should die down in a week or so..

I too wish they wouldn't be like that but it's anywhere you go.

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I still don't understand why the DutyFinder doesn't have a selection for what kind of run you're looking for:
- Speedrun
- Casual
- RP
- Don't care

If you want the fastest queues, you say Don't Care. Otherwise, you can trade queue times for the type of run you really want to do.

People will queue for "Don't Care" when they want to speedrun, it's faster after all. So this idea is pointless.

We were speed running it blind on patch day with my pre-made. We are all geared for savage and it's not hard.

I'd never kick someone for being new, but unless someone asks me to explain stuff, I'm pulling everything I can, and if I see someone is new, the ready check IS your chance to ask for mechs.

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Originally Posted by Immut

It's not a speedrun anymore. It's just how you do things. Sohm Al (hard) is very deliberately designed for you to be pulling to the wall every time. SE is not dumb. They know how people play dungeons now, and they design around it. So if you're not doing that, you're just bad. It's not elitism, it's literally you not playing the game as effectively as you're expected to.

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The design is on purpose...But that does not mean its not shit design and really bad direction for the game to go.

Que times will be split more and become longer.

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Originally Posted by Zampp

The design is on purpose...But that does not mean its not shit design and really bad direction for the game to go.

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Why is that?

If your group can pull to the wall you pull to the wall. If they can't you don't, it's that simple. In the 3ish days the dungeon has been available I've done it both ways and it's been fine. I agree that a design encouraging people to pull the entire dungeon (like some of the early ARR HMs) doesn't feel great especially if your group can't manage that. But why isn't this a good compromise?

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Originally Posted by shweppers

I still don't understand why the DutyFinder doesn't have a selection for what kind of run you're looking for:
- Speedrun
- Casual
- RP
- Don't care

If you want the fastest queues, you say Don't Care. Otherwise, you can trade queue times for the type of run you really want to do.

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Can see it now: Queue Speedrun, get 2 bards. Bard 1 spams single target attacks only, bard 2 refuses to use wander's. 2 minutes to kill first big pull, 1 minute in tank is out of cds, healers out of mp for nuking. Bard 1 "This is supposed to be a speed run, why are you in tank stance?," Bard 2 "Healers just healing, wtf"

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Originally Posted by shweppers

I still don't understand why the DutyFinder doesn't have a selection for what kind of run you're looking for:
- Speedrun
- Casual
- RP
- Don't care

If you want the fastest queues, you say Don't Care. Otherwise, you can trade queue times for the type of run you really want to do.

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Probably because every one of those besides "Speedrun" is really just "being bad at the game".

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Originally Posted by Heliantheae

That BGM is something out of Star Ocean.

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It originated from FFXIV 1.0
its the default battle music in Thanalan.

Not gonna lie, I love speed runs (assuming the party can handle it lol), way more fun! There is nothing worse than a SMN getting stuck with small mobs, because 3 enemies, or 20, they'll all die at around the same speed. XD

Although I'm sad to hear you got kicked as a newbie. :( That's not ok. If rest of party isn't ok pulling big it's not a major hardship to slow it down.

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Originally Posted by shweppers

I still don't understand why the DutyFinder doesn't have a selection for what kind of run you're looking for:
- Speedrun
- Casual
- RP
- Don't care

If you want the fastest queues, you say Don't Care. Otherwise, you can trade queue times for the type of run you really want to do.

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Que's would become ridiculous if we added all these sub-categories just to cater to a minority of people, if you are not speed running on EXPERT, then you are in the minority. Most people assume if your running one of the highest dungeons in the game you know how to play your class, almost every dungeon is the same when pulling large groups of mobs. There are very few exceptions, like bees in neverreap, where too many final stings can kill you.

My party always accommodates people who are new and speak up, but more often than not people pull multiple packs of monsters minimun.

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Originally Posted by Immut

It's not a speedrun anymore. It's just how you do things.

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This. If you play an MMO for long enough, or do anything with repetitive tasks, really, eventually you'll end up wanting to do those things as efficiently as possible.

All jobs at 60 are capable of high AoE DPS. The tanks are capable of surviving 15 mobs hitting them, because the healers are capable of healing them through it while still finding time to DPS. Basically, dungeons are so easy that the only thing that limits how much we can pull are the gates imposed on us by the game's level designers. I'm not saying I don't enjoy dungeon runs (I do), but I don't want to spend longer than necessary in them because I could be doing other stuff that's actually challenging.

I don't think me pulling door-to-door is a speedrun, and I don't think it's a detriment to the experience of first-timers. They still get to see the dungeon and watch all the cutscenes, since SE realized they were being stupid with CM and Prae back in 2013.

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Originally Posted by seekified

This. If you play an MMO for long enough, or do anything with repetitive tasks, really, eventually you'll end up wanting to do those things as efficiently as possible.

All jobs at 60 are capable of high AoE DPS. The tanks are capable of surviving 15 mobs hitting them, because the healers are capable of healing them through it while still finding time to DPS. Basically, dungeons are so easy that the only thing that limits how much we can pull are the gates imposed on us by the game's level designers. I'm not saying I don't enjoy dungeon runs (I do), but I don't want to spend longer than necessary in them because I could be doing other stuff that's actually challenging.

I don't think me pulling door-to-door is a speedrun, and I don't think it's a detriment to the experience of first-timers. They still get to see the dungeon and watch all the cutscenes, since SE realized they were being stupid with CM and Prae back in 2013.

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I agree with your point about people wanting to do things efficiently, but I couldn't disagree more with your last statement. Speed runs alter the dungeon experience, they don't provide as much of a learning experience, and they sort of suck the soul out of the dungeon, in my opinion at least.

There are two core design decisions here that have contributed to the rise of speed runs (and yes, those are a thing; saying it's just what you do is playing games with semantics).

1.) SE makes easy dungeons. If they don't start off that way, they eventually become that way as everyone becomes more powerful (i.e. the next version update). SE could easily change this if they wanted to; they could, for instance, make the iLevel cap stricter, so that over-gearing didn't break actual dungeon mechanics. They could also implement a tweak to specifically discourage the pulling of multiple groups; something like a 'damage multiplier' that triggers when multiple groups are pulled. Say, if two groups are engaged at once, they each do double damage; three groups engaged at once, everything does triple damage. Regardless, there are options, if SE ever wants to discourage speed-runs.

2.) SE designs dungeons with high levels of repetition in mind. Especially when dungeons are first released, people are running them several times a week. This results in boredom and a desire to finish the experience as quickly as possible. There are also plenty of alternatives here, if SE were ever inclined to revisit the issue.

So for anyone disliking speed-runs (and I count myself in that group), these are the two root causes to attack. It's pointless to ask for different DF options, or complain about speed-runners in general; speed-runs are a product of their environment.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

It's pointless to ask for different DF options, or complain about speed-runners in general; speed-runs are a product of their environment.

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On that, I completely agree. Essentially, people will find the optimal ways of doing everything in the game, to the extent that the game allows them to do so. It's why Diadem went to shit from optimal farming, it's why people farm A1S and finish their i270 relics in a couple of days, it's why everyone does the Wondrous Tails trials unsynced, and it's why we get door-to-door pulls in dungeons. The game allows them to do it, so they do it because they can.

I've been an advocate of harder dungeons for a long time, but it'd have to be an option, not something that is mandated for all new dungeons. If Hard Modes were actually hard and gave slightly better tome rewards but required higher iLvls, maybe that'd help. It's a tough problem to solve, and they'd have to be very careful with how they do it. To be fair, considering how limited their devtime already appears to be, I don't think much will change in the near term.

Faceroll content is faceroll content, players will speedruns them till the end.
Because there is not any special reason to not do it. Players is new to this dungeon ? Maybe you din't see how all dgn is the same ? pack of trash mobs/boss/pack of trash mobs/boss/ pack of trash mobs/boss and it's done. There is nothing special but linear and simple dungeon. at some point there is nothing to discovery exept background and background musics...

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

Speed runs alter the dungeon experience, they don't provide as much of a learning experience, and they sort of suck the soul out of the dungeon, in my opinion at least.

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First, "learning experience" from normal trashmobs? In the latest lvl 60 dungeon? You've got to be joking, there's nothing new anyone could learn from fighting these mobs, be it 1 or 2 groups at a time.

Second, about that soul of the dungeon... these two dungeons are probably some of the worst designed dungeons I've seen in this game. One is a cave, with some waterpuddles and some lava, very original stuff... The other is a rampart with graphics and objects we've seen several times before.

Not even one of the bosses brought anything new to the table. So unless these are the among the first dungeons anyone does (which is impossible), there is really nothing that anyone could learn from these dungeons. They simply only exist for getting tomestones, and could just as well be replaced with an instanced room that you parked your char in for 15-20 minutes and got tomestones for doing so.

All this talk about people "speedrunning", and I still end up in dungeon runs where tanks pull one pack at a time with 40k+ HP, healers never enter cleric stance, and DPS do the damage I was doing in Neverreap. I'd love to always be in the groups that this thread brought up.

Usually for speed runs when I go on my drk I end up doing 50-60% of the dmg while my group does no dmg, healer is usually sitting there spamming heals while my bard is AFK feeding his cat and the drg is on the floor rolling around using Ring of Thorns.