On Primal Summoning

Just a thought I had, but..

Primals need faith and aether to manifest, right?
And since what is summoned is mostly shaped by the needs and hopes of the ones doing the summoning (through prayer and the like),
they basically influence what sort of being manifests (like how Shiva was Ysayle's idea of her and not how she originally was during her lifetime).

So I wondered:
The main problem with Primals is their hunger for aether. That's the main reason why we fight them and negotiate with beasttribes, to stop them from sucking the planet dry.
So, is it at least theoretically possible to summon a primal that is NOT hungry for aether? Since the hopes and beliefs shape the primal, after all?
Like, for example, if my cult of Nymeia was absolutely convinced she is 100% benefical and in no way hurting the planet,
if we summoned her with a few truckloads of crystals and our faith, would she not suck up aether despite staying in this world?

No it isn't possible. Being a primal is what sucks aether away. It's not that they "hunger" for aether so to speak. Their very existence causes it without them controling this or perhaps even being aware of it.

It's a facet of their existence.

See Alexander.

I think the closest you could get is an Egi of Nymeia. Aether would still be consumed but only that of the summoner and it wouldn't go around tempering people.

Even if you somehow rewrote the laws of a deiform's existence in this plane they'd putter out and dissipate without their ambient aether consumption, I'd reckon

Basically, Primals are aetheric beings; they need aether to survive, like we do air, food and water. If they don't get aether, they die (dissipate/unsummon).

You can't make a Primal not suck up aether like you can't stop breathing.

Bear in mind, however, that Ascians are the ones who teach folks how to summon, and we know that they are bad news. The whole "aether devouring" bit might be intrinsic to the nature of a Primal - or it could be something that the Ascians added because draining Aether from Hydaelyn furthers their goals. This COULD mean that there's a "safe" way to summon Primals that do not include that nasty side effect, but if there is, the Ascians aren't too likely to share that bit of info.

But no, the worshipers' beliefs about the Primal only have a very limited effect on how the Primal turns out, centering primarily around the Primal's attitude. Intrinsic things like this wouldn't be affected, no matter how hard the followers believe.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Basically, Primals are aetheric beings;

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Which now begs a curious question:
Is Y'shtola a primal?

It is possible to reduce yourself to aether and travel the lifestream, that much we know - Teleport, Flow, Return etc. But how are we put back together and what are we made off afterwards? Something that, apparently, can be made to and from aether, because that's what we dissolved into to travel the lifestream. Aren't we then technically made off aether? And if so, why wouldn't we all need aether for sustenance, too?

Could A-Towa-Cant and Severains girlfriend linger indefinitely if they just consumed more aether for sustenance? And why did they not have to do that during their lifetime? Is the difference maybe just a physical vessel? But why do Shiva and Thordan drain aether too then?

What of Carbuncles, Fairies etc? Those seem to be harmless, but are clearly aetheric beings as well.

I feel it's a little less clear cut than it seems to be.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Which now begs a curious question:
Is Y'shtola a primal?

It is possible to reduce yourself to aether and travel the lifestream, that much we know - Teleport, Flow, Return etc. But how are we put back together and what are we made off afterwards? Something that, apparently, can be made to and from aether, because that's what we dissolved into to travel the lifestream. Aren't we then technically made off aether? And if so, why wouldn't we all need aether for sustenance, too?

Could A-Towa-Cant and Severains girlfriend linger indefinitely if they just consumed more aether for sustenance? And why did they not have to do that during their lifetime? Is the difference maybe just a physical vessel? But why do Shiva and Thordan drain aether too then?

What of Carbuncles, Fairies etc? Those seem to be harmless, but are clearly aetheric beings as well.

I feel it's a little less clear cut than it seems to be.

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Y'shtola is using her own aether to be able to see by sensing the aether around her. She's technically draining her own life force, not that of her surroundings as primals do. Matoya warned her that doing this was shortening her own life as a result.

Fairies/carbuncles/egis use the summoner's aether to manifest as well. That begs the question though, how that doesn't too drain the life of the summoner... Unless the effect is too minimal, or the summoner simply replenishes that aether.

Which leads to the question of all living things draining aether. My understanding is that the difference between primals and other life is that primals are like black holes: the aether they use up simply disappears/ceases to exist. Like how the Void is essentially an aetheric vacuum. Other life simply recycles it; though in Y'shtola's case, perhaps she is using her aether faster than it can be replenished by that around her?

EDIT: At the Shiva and Thordan thing, the summoners (in these cases Ysayle and Archibishop Thordan VII) draw the aether from around them to transform themselves into primals. In doing this they still drain and permanently consume the aether around them, because they're still primals, and that's just what primals do. :P As to why people can't linger indefinitely, perhaps it has to do with the fact that in order to permanently manifest after they have lost their physical form, they NEED to drain aether in this way... They can temporarily manifest, but with no physical anchor of their own, the aether just returns to the lifestream. Primals never had a physical form to begin with, so giving them form requires a massive amount of aether (crystals) PLUS an even bigger amount over time to remain manifested.

Well Y'shtola wasn't really summoned with aether and prayers. Her aether was found and rebuilt.

Yes we are all made of ather. Even the land has it. What you do with that aether is the difference.

As for the egi, they don't drain the summoner as the summoner uses part of their aether and part of the primal aether to form the pet. It's a set amount so there is no need to drain the summoner or the land. Same reason for the inability to manifest any more egi: aetheric limitations.

To bring in some head-canon speculation on meta-physics :P

Aether is like what sub-atomic particles are in the real world.. Everything is made out of it, and how things behave depends on how those particles are ordered and move (roughly). I'd imagine physical manifestations in Eorzea are just stable structures of different types of aether mixed together. I'd guess something can be considered an aetherial construct when that aether is in a non-stable form, naturally wanting to return to stable situation, which would be to return to the lifestream, later seeping back into the land in the form of water, heat, minerals etc. There are ways to trap things in a non-stable form, by ensuring it can only return to the lifestream after an even less stable situation is reached, this however costs energy, energy that can be extracted from various forms of aether.

Primals being really large aetherial constructs would need a lot of energy to sustain their forms, while smaller constructs like egi's and carbuncles can do with the energy that their owner gets from eating :P A primary difference between primals and other constructs would then simply be the ability of a primal of drawing aether from the land, without that ability, they'd not be able to exist for more than a few seconds.

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Originally Posted by Miyha

In doing this they still drain and permanently consume the aether around them, because they're still primals, and that's just what primals do. :P

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And that is what I find so odd. "It's just what primals do" probably sums it up - It's not meant to make sense, it's just a rule full stop.

I mean, let's assume we do not drain the land for now, because that would make the whole MSQ somewhat odd. Fact is: We dissolve our body into aether, travel the lifestream as a bunch of aether, then reconstruct our body elsewhere from that aether when we use teleport/flow. What stops a dead person from reconstructing their body from aether in the same way? It makes sense that they would require "some" aether to build a new body - we also require aether to rebuild our own - but why would they need more afterwards if we don't? And why does a primal require further aether for sustenance? Our bodies, the bodies of ghosts and the bodies of primals are all made of the exact same thing, namely pure aether, yet the rules are different. Why?

Moreover, yes, carbuncles etc are using your own aether. But where did that aether come from and where does it go? As far as I'm aware, from the lifestream - or in other words, the land. And what happens if something is lost on the way, be it because it's consumed by a primal or something else? It's missing in the end.

Your theories are all nice and easily understandable when standing alone, but they don't make much sense when put together. As such, I'm inclined to conclude it is not because, it simply is and trying to interpret more into it would only lead to headaches.

Primals don't drain Aether like a black hole and destroy it; they corrupt it and make it unable to rejoin the lifestream like anything else's aether. Its still technically aether, and can still be used by some things (like the Manacutters. They specifically use a corrupted crystal engine, and most of the corrupted crystals we have right now are from when Bahamut went on rampage. Others can be found after a Primal summoning...), but the natural order rejects it (its basically poison to the Lifestream now)


EDIT: Hmm...maybe not worded the best. But basically, Primals consume aether and corrupt it. Corrupted aether can't be used by natural things or return to the lifestream, and thus manifests as corrupted crystals after a Primal is banished (or just goes through an area). "Natural" aether is recyclable, moving between living things, the world (ambient aether...the stuff CNJ/WHM use to cast spells) and the lifestream in cycles.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

It makes sense that they would require "some" aether to build a new body - we also require aether to rebuild our own - but why would they need more afterwards if we don't? And why does a primal require further aether for sustenance? Our bodies, the bodies of ghosts and the bodies of primals are all made of the exact same thing, namely pure aether, yet the rules are different. Why?

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The rules are different because Primals do not exist on the physical plane naturally. They are aether manifested into the will of the summoner. In order to maintain a corporeal form to match the willpower or faith which summoned them, they must continuously consume aether - and in massive quantities. A primal does not eat or drink like we do to sustain ourselves, so they must maintain their corporeal form by taking aether from the land.

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Originally Posted by Encyclopedia Eorzea

Some scholars have expanded upon this hypothesis saying that the consumption of food serves not only to fill the belly, but to provide the body with aether lost through exertion.

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In the summoning of carbuncles and egis, the arcanist allocates a portion of their own aether in the summoning ritual which maintains the form statically. And when teleporting, we break down the aether which makes up our bodies around our soul and transports it along the Lifestream to a new location where it is rebuilt using the same aether. In this way our aether is neither lost nor gained.

Unlike arcanima or teleportation, primals are "making something out of nothing," which is what requires the heavy toll on the world's aether.

Primal Summoning:

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Originally Posted by Louisoix

You see, in order to remain in our plane of existence, a primal must needs devour prodigious amounts of aether - the energy bound in crystals and at large throughout all creation. Consequently, the land is slowly but surely being drained of its aether, and the day fast approaches when the fount will run dry. Should that happen, what then? Why, all life in Eorzea will end. Even as we speak, the land bleeds, with every passing moment another ilm closer to death. And die it surely will - unless we purge it of its blight. Aye, I speak of the primals.

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Originally Posted by Thancred

Having manifested in the physical realm, primals must consume aether if they are to maintain their presence here. And the stronger they become, the more aether they require. Now, aether exists throughout creation. It flows through all life, and permeates the very air that we breathe. Alas, this alone will not suffice to sustain the likes of Ifrit. Nay, he and his kind require a more concentrated source of aether─crystals. Which leaves us with the why of the abductions. To understand this, you must first understand how primals are born. When all is well with the world, primals possess no physical form. Their essence is dispersed across the great river of aether.

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Originally Posted by Minfilia

However, when the world is plunged into chaos, those who worship the primals cry out to their gods for deliverance from suffering. These cries serve as a beacon toward which a primal's essence is irresistibly drawn. It is this coming together─or “aetheric coalescence”─which grants the beings physical form. Once born, a primal gains strength from its followers' worship. The more numerous and fervent they are, the more powerful their god becomes.

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Originally Posted by Y'shtola

Like all primals, Alexander constantly draws aether from its surroundings both to sustain itself and to gain in strength.

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Originally Posted by Encyclopedia Eorzea

Finally, in addition to the chaos wrought by the beings themselves, the very act of summoning can have adverse effects on the land. The aether required in the summoning and maintaining of the creature's corporeal form will, without fail, draw overmuch from the surrounding environment's life energy, turning once-lush areas into wastelands and disrupting the very balance of the world itself.

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Aetheryte Teleportation:

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Originally Posted by 1.0 Lodestone

Though the exact mechanism behind teleportation via aetheryte is still largely a mystery, one theory states that when a sentient being approaches one of the portals, the aether that makes up its body resonates with the aether of the crystals, which in turn results in a complete breakdown of the being’s mass, allowing it to temporarily return to the invisible aetheric streams that course throughout the planet.

The being’s soul, which cannot be broken down, then guides the particles to a predetermined destination, and upon arrival, the corresponding aetheryte receptacle reconfigures the mist back into its original form. This whole process takes only a matter of moments, allowing for nearly instant transportation to faraway destinations.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

But basically, Primals consume aether and corrupt it. Corrupted aether can't be used by natural things or return to the lifestream, and thus manifests as corrupted crystals after a Primal is banished (or just goes through an area).

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Having done a lot of research on corrupted aether and crystals before, I've never run across an instance where a Primal's existence exuded corrupted aether. Most references to corrupted aether and crystals reference the Calamity as the cause (though corruption existed beforehand), citing the wounds caused by the falling shards of Dalamud or the destruction wrought by Bahamut's flares.

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Originally Posted by Alisaie

Tell me, have you ever seen corrupted crystals such as these? Such crystals manifested across the realm when the course of the great river of aether was irrevocably altered five years ago. Behold one of the objects that caused that alteration: a fragment of the lesser moon, Dalamud. Ancient Allag created Dalamud─or Meteor, to use the Garlean name─to serve as a celestial prison for Bahamut. Its fall inflicted grievous wounds upon the land─wounds that have yet to heal, as is evident from the corrupted crystals.

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Originally Posted by The Raven - Dalamud Approaches

According to Domitien, the red moon's growing proximity is wreaking havoc on the natural balance of the elements. As evidence to support this claim, he points to the recent and wide-ranging discovery of crystals that either exhibit an extreme concentration of a particular elemental property, or appear to have lost any such properties altogether. And what might the consequences of such a disruption to elemental balance entail? Domitien hypothesizes that the disturbance could give rise to peculiarities among monstrous wildlife, as well as alter the flow of aetheric energy. This last point is especially worrisome, as the “rivers” of aether that run through the land are what make instantaneous travel between aetheryte locations possible. Should the aetheric flow become sufficiently warped, it may well prevent us from using aetherytes altogether.

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Originally Posted by Alphinaud

We speak of the manifestations of over-aspected aether that can be found throughout Eorzea. Since the Calamity disrupted the land's aetheric currents, such crystals have become comparatively commonplace. ...Which has been a cause of great woe, as they are known to warp aetheric energies, including those of living organisms.

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Originally Posted by Earthbound

Since the Calamity, there has been much imbalance in the elements. Founts of over-aspected aether erupt from the soil and manifest into corrupted crystals. These crystals, in turn, attract the most unsavory of creatures, the most common of all being elemental sprites who, upon absorbing the crystals, become corrupted themselves. The Brass Blades are seeking adventurers to comb the desert and find the crystals, slaying any corrupted sprites encountered.

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Bahamut's presence itself doesn't corrupt the aether, as that would make Louisoix's plan to defeat the elder primal as Phoenix and return his stolen aether to rebirth the realm kind of silly. The problem with the plan was that Bahamut was immediately resummoned by his in-stasis followers and drank back the aether slowly while he recovered beneath the coils.

If you think about it, Primals are "elemental" beings. Say for example in real life, a hurricane consists of water and wind, and also moisture. It draws that from our Earth in order to take a form. Without water, wind, and moisture, it gets weaker and dies. That's why a hurricane is at its strongest when over the ocean, but right after it makes landfall it starts to weaken because it can't draw up vast amounts of water, air, and moisture. Then it dies. Using a hurricane as an example for how a Primal is, it makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

If you think about it, Primals are "elemental" beings. Say for example in real life, a hurricane consists of water and wind, and also moisture. It draws that from our Earth in order to take a form. Without water, wind, and moisture, it gets weaker and dies. That's why a hurricane is at its strongest when over the ocean, but right after it makes landfall it starts to weaken because it can't draw up vast amounts of water, air, and moisture. Then it dies. Using a hurricane as an example for how a Primal is, it makes sense.

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Also Hurricanes destroy everything in their path. Just like Primals.

I wonder though, why do ordinary lifeforms on Hydaelyn not consume aether in the way primals (and by extension voidsent) do? Even the ancient Great Wyrms apparently don't bleed the land dry with their aether battery eyes.

As it currently stands no, there is no way to summon a full-on Primal that doesn't suck aether out of the land just by existing.

BUT one crucial thing could change this. Directly or indirectly everyone who has learned how to summon Primals learned from the Ascians...and if the Ascians are giving a flawed and/or corrupted form of summoning out to insure their goals are reached? Then it is possible there is a "pure" summoning method that doesn't constantly drain aether. Though it wouldn't surprise me if it would still take quite a bit of aether for the inital summoning though it might just pass back to the land upon primal despawn.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

I wonder though, why do ordinary lifeforms on Hydaelyn not consume aether in the way primals (and by extension voidsent) do? Even the ancient Great Wyrms apparently don't bleed the land dry with their aether battery eyes.

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Like I said above, because ordinary lifeforms on Hydaelyn who are born on this physical plane have their own corporeal form that was formed naturally. This is not the case with the Primals (who must drain aether to maintain a form that does not belong or occur naturally in this world) and Voidsent (who are beings starved for aether due to their Reflection of the Source being consumed by darkness and becoming void of aether).

Additionally, we do actually consume aether to restore and sustain us - only we uptake this aether in the form of food and water.

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Originally Posted by Encyclopedia Eorzea

Some scholars have expanded upon this hypothesis saying that the consumption of food serves not only to fill the belly, but to provide the body with aether lost through exertion.

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Given that in real life based on quantum mechanics, matter is just energy bound into a stable form, one could then compare Primals to a being made out of plasma, powerful, destructive and needing a ton of energy put in to keep it's shape