Kill Reward: %-based VS last hit?

Im sure its happened to everyone at some point: You perfectly execute your jobs burst, getting someone down to 1-2% hp......then that (insert any job so im not guilty of picking on one in particular) that was playing it safe behind the line, contributing absolutely nothing, throws out 1 ranged attack and grabs the last hit, being awarded with the kill.

This wasn't as obvious in secure since the high/fever concept hadnt been preached yet, but from slaughter on, just became more and more evident. My question then: Would more people prefer to see kill reward/acknowledgement based on say greatest % done within 5-10 sec of death...or still just whoever got last hit?

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Originally Posted by Vaeria

Im sure its happened to everyone at some point: You perfectly execute your jobs burst, getting someone down to 1-2% hp......then that (insert any job so im not guilty of picking on one in particular) that was playing it safe behind the line, contributing absolutely nothing, throws out 1 ranged attack and grabs the last hit, being awarded with the kill.

This wasn't as obvious in secure since the high/fever concept hadnt been preached yet, but from slaughter on, just became more and more evident. My question then: Would more people prefer to see kill reward/acknowledgement based on say greatest % done within 5-10 sec of death...or still just whoever got last hit?

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But kill stealing with shield lob is so much fun D:

If you 'perfectly execute your jobs burst' then target should be dead, not running away with 2%. Let the other people be rewarded for finishing your butchered job properly. Without them your burst might as well didnt existed.

I suppose your definition of a perfect burst is a 100% lethal one. Thats fine. By using the term, i'm merely giving reference to one that mortally wounds someone with a 1-2 second window where 1 followup hit will finish them off (where a crit during said burst didn't occur for example.) Doesn't even have to be a burst at all. You coulda been the tank slugging it out with a dps and all cd were exhausted. You're about to land the killing hit and some random dps just pops out and finishes it.

It's called 'kill' for a reason and if you actually didn't killed you only did 'kill assist', doesnt matter if it's 1% or 98% HP. During that 1-2 second window more often then not a healer reacts and heals the enemy so without extra help your burst would be wasted anyway.

Why that even bothers you, it's a team based game and you all work together towards a common goal. I don't care if someone steals my kill because I do the same and it happens naturally during battle.

Haha..I dunno...when you do 99% of the work and someone does 1%...YOURE the one whose, according to the definition, done the assist? Sounds a little inaccurate to say the least. Ya, FL is by default a teambased game, but not everyone who shows up plays for team. For example..those who are still working on HoM title...those who are simply competing for most kills, etc. As well..what about instances where there was no healer around and death was imminent, if by nothing else, poision, in other words, so that it was guarenteed 1 way or another?

Why not just scratch assists as a whole and give everyone a kill who did any damage on the guy, then adjust fever/battle high accordingly?

Might actually make Hand of Mercy/Battle High/Fever a thing for tanks/healers.

solo = sure kills .. or sure death LOL

I have been guilty of "kill stealing" as the term goes... *coughScathecough* But all competitive games which include K/D/As have this problem.

You say that if you do 99% of the damage that the kill should go to you, however, what if you spent all your resources to do that 99% and have nothing left to get the kill? Do you think you deserve the kill despite not being able to actually finish the job?
Would you rather the enemy get away with a sliver of health or would you like the enemy to die and the kill go over to anyone on your team?

There are some instances where you do most of the damage to someone but you actually have no way of getting the kill either. It's better if one of your team members gets a kill than none of you get one at all. Also there've been times where I've let someone take a solo kill but the enemy actually gets away.

Not to mention that what if you did 51% of the damage to someone? I wouldn't think that you deserve the kill since someone else might have done 49% of the damage. You both didn't deserve to get a kill by only half killing someone do you think?

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Originally Posted by Vaeria

Im sure its happened to everyone at some point: You perfectly execute your jobs burst, getting someone down to 1-2% hp......then that (insert any job so im not guilty of picking on one in particular) that was playing it safe behind the line, contributing absolutely nothing, throws out 1 ranged attack and grabs the last hit, being awarded with the kill.

This wasn't as obvious in secure since the high/fever concept hadnt been preached yet, but from slaughter on, just became more and more evident. My question then: Would more people prefer to see kill reward/acknowledgement based on say greatest % done within 5-10 sec of death...or still just whoever got last hit?

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I'm that SMN sitting safely in the backline, repeatedly using bane and picking off whoever gets low! You mistake "kill-stealing" with "kill-securing" (someone said this before in a thread a long time ago). Being an AoE-heavy job, all of the targets belong to me, you just mooch off my bane'd targets! :p If I so choose to be quick enough to snap that last 5% with one of my ranged abilities (hi pre-nerf painflare), I get the kill because I was the fastest at securing those points for mah team.

I'm not going to be penalized for playing my job efficiently (switching from AoE to single target if both options are equal at the time, ex. no enemy healer too close that I should single target). SMN is nastiest repeatedly layering DoTs and stressing enemy healer, then rapidly switching targets to whoever gets low (with enemy AoE heals negated by my AoE dmg) and snapping up whoever gets low.

Just because melee plays differently and is more effective at single targeting doesn't mean they should get those kills, unless they actually, you know, get those kills. That's like me saying I deserve more kills because I did the most damage with AoE DoTs, but without killing them outright, it's fruitless. Everyone benefits when an enemy dies at the end, it just doesn't work you towards the hand of mercy title. :)

I got The Hand of Mercy in 2015 shortly after HW launch, SMN was overpowered and I was getting 7-15 kills every match. If I'd farmed it now I'd switch to a bard, it has melee-quality LB every 90 seconds called Barrage, if you pop all buffs and focus a target with 70-80% hp (except tanks) you have a guaranteed kill.
Machinist is good too with Between the Eyes wreckage every 2 minutes but it relies on target not being immune to stuns/binds and it's harder to play, especially on controller.
I don't play black mage much but I guess Fire4-Fire 4-Firestarter should kill someone too.
Melee is out of question unless you have a pocket healer.

Now that I think of it, why would you even make this thread lol, think simply, if you take the target hp up to 99.99% and he's still alive you simply "wounded" him, of course kill goes to whoever KILLS the target :D lol

Since burst kills are being focused on here whereas I ment just death in general, regardless of how it was accomplished, I'll give an entirely different example.

You're a smn whose relatively close to your team's flag. Youre just about to jump on your choco and trot off when a drg decides to try and ambush you. You spend the next 30 secs duking it out with him, clearly gaining the upper advantage (w/o either of you using a burst of any kind, just duking it out like 2 old men.) No healers around, no way for either of you to run away from imminent death, nothing.

You're down to 24% hp...he's down to 2% hp. Unbeknownst to either of you, a ninja (who happens to be on your team) has been sitting there in hide the whole time. For w/e reason, he's decided not to lend you a hand the extire duration of this little brawl...who knows..meibe he's just eating popcorn and watching. But the minute he sees the drg get mortally low, he decides to jump in and grab the last hit. Is this right?

If kills were % based on greatest amount done at ToD (w/in say 10 seconds), he, the nin, would still be acknowledged for the assist, but you, who did the most work, contributing to the kill, one you were completely capable of obtaining yourself, would still be awarded the kill.

Now I already know at least 2 of you are gonna respond "Durrr.....da nin should still get the kill just because he got da last hit." But can you support this with any kind of rational, justifiable logic behind it? And *sigh* in before "Thats just how it goes."

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Originally Posted by Vaeria

Now I already know at least 2 of you are gonna respond "Durrr.....da nin should still get the kill just because he got da last hit." But can you support this with any kind of rational, justifiable logic behind it? And *sigh* in before "Thats just how it goes."

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Sure its not nice but everyone "killsteal" in a match. There is no solution to it and the system is fine. Imagine we take your idea and the last 10sec dmg before dead is deciding the kill then what? I probably outdmg you with 1 or 2 procs on my blm in the last 10secs lol. The possiblity is even higher that you dont get the kill cause in the last 10secs is the moment where you already used your bursty skills.

Sure, there are moments that definitely qualifies as a "true killsteal". But, in my experience, in most cases, people aren't going around only bursting mortally wounded pcs for the sole reason to kill-steal. I know that when I target low health players it's in order to secure a kill; not steal the kill. At the same time I think it's safe to say that most people get some satisfaction from that kill/rampage popup.

SE already implemented assists. That is enough imo; it will never be 100% fair anyway. You could make some % system, still, there would be ways to abuse that as well.

It's much more annoying when people stop bursting. I mean, when they assume it's a secured kill:
"Oh, he is gonna die. I can stop damage now".
or
"Oh, someone is LBing him. I can save my burst now".
No, even if there is a LB on the way, don't stop bursting.

Well, I guess if the majority here are true team players who have no qualms about letting their teammates get the credit for their knifework...not much more to be said.

Will let it die, but just kinda makes me think about a kid mowing the lawn on a hot day. He's got 95% of it done but stops to tie his shoe and catch a small breath. His brother steps out, picks up the lawn mower and finishes off the last 5%. While hes doing that, the father looks out the window and sees him and decides to award him with an icecream cone....while the sibling that did the 95% goes un noticed and gets nothing. Granted..the 2 are brothers, same family, but does that sound fair?

As a side note, every now and then, i'll target a pet, eos, turret or w/e, sometimes mindlessly, sometimes because its just in my line of fire. I'll take it down from 100 to 10 without any assistance at all. Minute it gets to 8%ish...suddenly I see 3-4 people target it, which of course, gives no reward, but its just laughable to see the 'last hit' mentality in action.

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Originally Posted by Vaeria

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Was the brother doing it to snatch all the reward or secure the outcome? If he just did it only for a potential reward, he has a "killsteal" mentality. If he did it in order to finish the job, he did it to ensure the job was finished (you know, being nice).
Those people jumping on low health target may as well do it with the intention to secure a kill (getting the kill is a bonus). To steal the kill is not the only intention to pick from here. That being said, I'm sure there are plenty of people who only do it for the kill. Still, the most important thing is to actually kill the target, so, imo, it doesn't really matter. You'd still get your assist reward (unless you play Secure or Slaughter. SE! pls add assists in Secure and Slaughter).

One way KS can effect your team negatively is preventing others from getting battlehigh/fever. In that regard, kill assist could give highs/fevers as well. SE would need to adjust the requirements in that case.

I've seen many not want the battle fever either way, since it marks their position on the map for all to see.
Many would rather just go about killing in stealth.

Stop stealing all my kills! :D