Ditch the Tomes!! ~Just an Idea~

Greetings!

So to start, I am a casual player. I last raided during Binding Coil the first time around and today I have NIN and DRK as my only active classes at level 60 (out of 4 level 60 classes total). So this isn't coming from a person who is caught up on end game as of 2017.

I'll be honest, more often than not, when I log on to play my go-to functions are Duty Finder > Expert and/or Trial. This isn't because I don't like any other content, this is rather because doing DF is the best way for my play habits to line up with attempts to keep current in some form.

This got me re-visiting an idea I had a while ago back in 2.0:

Why don't we have much incentive to keep doing the older content? And what could get us to go back?

One Idea I had (and honestly still have) is for SE to take away Tomes altogether and replace it with a Experience Point/Paragon point hybrid system. Let me try to explain.

From a top-down perspective, as a level 60 I have little to no incentive to run much of the older content, mostly the 9 other level-60 dungeons we currently have. I know in the past I hated to see Neverreap, but now it might help to break the continuum.

From a bottom-up perspective, new players can have FC mates help them with places like Copperbell or even old raids (they would give xp too under this system) with not feeling like they are pulling them away from something more important.

How it looks: Basically something like Diablo 3's Paragon system. Everything gives EXP. Raid trash, Raid Bosses, Dungeons, et al. A level gained post level cap awards the player a Point (or 5). Actually the TNL would be adjusted down so it isn't too much of a grind. The Points could be turned in for ilvl gear (similar to tomes) in order to get stronger. For example, fresh, patch-centric gear would be 50 *Points* and the older stuff would be half that or cheaper.

Pros:
All content becomes useful as opposed to being dumping ground for a Relic quest.
Players have the choice to hop around when they play to progress
Alongside Glamour, this could let players see gear they didn't know was in a particular dungeon (or content)

Cons:
This might foster a playstyle very similar to what we currently have: only run the new stuff since it might give the highest exp.
Or, steamroll the old stuff, since it gives really easy exp.
Watching progress on a bar to that next ding! could be soul-killing.

Summary:All this is to say that, while I love the game, often I feel like the game itself is funneling me consistently only towards the newest stuff on the newest patch. Maybe I am just some idealistic old-school player who wants some sort of bridge between the EXP grind and the Tome Grind; which feel like two totally different non-overlapping objectives.

I guess I focused too much on the Tome issue and not the idea behind it, sorry for the confusion. The main idea behind this entire post is to promote the discussion to OPEN all the game content up so a level 60 player could help out a level 25 player and still progress on "Tome" gearing (I am using Tome here to mean gearing in the most current patch). We have had 8 different categories of Tomes that effectively all do the same thing. Let's cut out the bloat and just combine it all down to ONE currency that is flexible and open enough to let players do whatever they want to do (actually it all involves killing monsters) at whatever level so they can entice new players to the game without leaving one player behind in Sastasha while another goes to Xelphatol.

The comparison above is to say instead of Sastasha and NO Tomes for the lvl 60, it becomes Sastasha and SOMETHING for the lvl 60 player's time.

TLDR: OK, ill frame it like this: Imagine all the content in the game gave tomes. If you are super attached to the idea of strictly tomes. Now you can run what you want and still progress. Goofing off with the FC in Crystal Tower? Still making progress

The change is aesthetic and in essence goes back to giving the player something that it already gives from the first time you step into the game.

This sounds like tomes under a different name.

People are still going to run w/e gets them gear faster.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

This sounds like tomes under a different name.

People are still going to run w/e gets them gear faster.

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I anticipated this, so I'll add: While this is just a shift, under the hood, On the surface this is a currency that will never need to be re-named, re-colored, refunded to make current, nothing. It is endless and static.

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Originally Posted by Xairos

I anticipated this, so I'll add: While this is just a shift, under the hood, On the surface this is a currency that will never need to be re-named, re-colored, refunded to make current, nothing. It is endless and static.

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Why change it at all then? This sounds like change merely for the sake of it.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Why change it at all then? This sounds like change merely for the sake of it.

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OK, ill frame it like this: Imagine all the content in the game gave tomes. The idea is to open the game up so that everything is relevant. I mean talk about forest for the trees. I know it isnt the most mind-blowing idea, but the intent is deeper than just "new tomes" .

Personally, I hate everything about the tome system. It does too much to turn the game into a job. If they are going to keep a weekly cap on the most relevant tomes, we should get them for pretty much everything we do. Then it no longer becomes a question of what can I do to get tomes quickly, but what do I actually want to do.

Yes lets take a system from a non mmo game that is the same thing we have now. Wonder why SE didnt think of it.

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Originally Posted by XSamsaraLotusX

Yes lets take a system from a non mmo game that is the same thing we have now. Wonder why SE didnt think of it.

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To Be honest, back in 2.0 I really drew this idea from the Merit System in FFXI, but I figured people had enough of "Make FFXIV like FFXI" so I looked to other games. Diablo 3 is but only one game that has a similar system and its modern enough for people to relate to....

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Originally Posted by Xairos

I anticipated this, so I'll add: While this is just a shift, under the hood, On the surface this is a currency that will never need to be re-named, re-colored, refunded to make current, nothing. It is endless and static.

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Without the "re-named, re-colored, refunded" step, what is to stop someone from stockpiling points in 4.1 so when 4.2 is released with the higher ilvl gear, they can instantly buy a full set?

Right now, the exchange is only from the currency being phased out to the uncapped tome, everyone starts at a blank slate for the capped tome when a new one is introduced.

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Originally Posted by Seniade

Without the "re-named, re-colored, refunded" step, what is to stop someone from stockpiling points in 4.1 so when 4.2 is released with the higher ilvl gear, they can instantly buy a full set?

Right now, the exchange is only from the currency being phased out to the uncapped tome, everyone starts at a blank slate for the capped tome when a new one is introduced.

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Ooh Good point! And thanks for humoring me even if this is horrid idea. The conversation is welcome.

I suppose instead of putting a weekly cap on the player currency acquisition, I would shift it to a weekly gear acquisition. Similar to how we can only purchase so much with the 450 weekly cap, but instead of stopping at 450 you can go beyond but you have to wait a week to buy what you want?

Hmm but maybe that sounds worse when looking from the player's perception....

To ask for a system like Diablo III's Paragon system, you are also asking for issues it holds.

If you want a carbon copy, just instead of levels, it's gear, then the more you get, the longer the next takes. Eventually it'd take even more of a grind.

Assuming you'd want it to stay even, you run into a problem you even pointed out. Something will still be best and will be done, while others are just seen as the, "Slow way." This leads to a giant problem that's being missed here. People will be able to finish the content even FASTER than what's currently possible. That means people will quit sooner, which means less money to SE, which effects what they are able to do. Why would I play more than a week if I can already get the newest set by then? Once I've cleared the raid with it, I'm short on raid content because I already have such strong gear.

We don't need ways that speed up the speed we eat content. We'll always consume faster than they can serve, so we don't want to make that worse. It'd be better to get a less grind feeling way. People liked it more with 3 dungeons in a roulette. They should try to go back to that.

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Originally Posted by Xairos

To Be honest, back in 2.0 I really drew this idea from the Merit System in FFXI, but I figured people had enough of "Make FFXIV like FFXI" so I looked to other games. Diablo 3 is but only one game that has a similar system and its modern enough for people to relate to....

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I'm totally confused with what you're trying to get at here .. Merits buy you SKILLS, Tomes buy you GEAR, entirely different aspects of character development.

Most easy way would be if the rewards are adapted to our lv. Run level roulett as lv. 60 char? here are your X Lore. Oh wait you got someone new? take that X extra lore. He got an point, it sucks being forced to do stuff only to get tomes and not to do stuff we like...

It would be great if a bigger variety of activities gave us meaningful amount of tomes, but I really like the tome system itself and don't want it ditched. On the other hand changes to how rewarding each piece of content is could have lasting effects on content consumption and player satisfaction. Who does fates now that PotD is more rewarding for levelers? How many people do expert roulette and then complain about every aspect of it? Players as a whole flock to what's most efficient whether it's actually fun to them or not.

Personally I'd love if hunts and clan marks were more rewarding but apparently that's wrong to think because when that happened at the start of the expansion people suggested The Hunt to be removed from game. People knew that was the most rewarding content at the time and felt the need to do it even though they didn't like it. The devs need to be careful about what kinds of content they want to keep relevant in end game and for what amount of time, and they are going the (maybe too) safe route by keeping expert roulette as the primary source of tomes.

Great points in the thread so far.

After reading, I guess my main focus is content longevity. I would love to new players and old players to both get something meaningful from all the content that SE spent a ton of time developing. I mean I love Crystal Tower, but (as much as I hate myself for it) when a FC mate asks to see what that old raid was really like, my first thought is "I don't want to run that, it's pointless for me".

That's what spurred this whole idea tbh.

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Originally Posted by Xairos

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It's a novel idea, so don't feel bad for how you got the inspiration for it. The problem comes down to if the old content becomes more rewarding for the same amount of effort, the new content gets done once then it is wasted. It's a cultural thing and I don't think there's any way SE can win here. Roulettes are great and all, but most people would rather just spend an extra day to only do Expert Roulette rather than trudge through the other roulettes to cap faster. And I don't think it's possible due to the nuances of the different pieces of content to perfectly balance it out so everything is equal reward for investment. Because if there's even a 1 tomestone per hour difference, people WILL notice it and it will affect what gets run. Yes, all over 1 tomestone per hour difference.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Personally, I hate everything about the tome system. It does too much to turn the game into a job. If they are going to keep a weekly cap on the most relevant tomes, we should get them for pretty much everything we do. Then it no longer becomes a question of what can I do to get tomes quickly, but what do I actually want to do.

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Tbh, I'd just prefer alternate gear acquisition methods overall. I don't like tomes, I don't like time-gated currency ESPECIALLY considering that players wanting to gear multiple jobs before the gear becomes devalued is a current trend in this game. Diadem tried this with random drops, but there were two snags I think: a.) Diadem itself was horribly boring and unfun to play, and b.) the ilevel range on the gear that dropped moved it from patently useless to BiS, and to me that's not a healthy gear distribution module. In fact, I often wonder how Diadem would have been received if gear drops were LESS frequent, but they were guaranteed to be useful if not for your main, then for an alt at least (ie ilevel 200-210, instead of this weird 150-210 range we got).

Either way, I think gear distribution in this game is kinda borked overall. It's a method that functionally makes very little sense. Log in and do your daily "chores" so you can buy gear (or log in weekly to hit your weekly raid slot machine roulette and hope for some usable gear), or just...not log in and wait until the inevitable catch-up method is added, because hey, it's not like you could have reasonably geared more than maybe 2 jobs in the time that you were away anyway!

It doesn't help that I personally find the "catch-up" method of acquiring gear FAR, FAR more interesting than the tomestone grind (do 24-man raid for gear 10 ilevel lower than top, get item to upgrade tome gear to max ilevel, also get tomes to BUY tome gear from 24-man raid, etc). I like the 24-man raids, for the most part. I wish they were introduced during the tomestone cycle, tbh. Do expert to get tomestone gear OR do 24-man to get gear slightly less good, OR do both so you can actually feasibly gear up more than one job at a time! (Pipe dream, I know.) Heck, add in some reasonably good but rare gear drops from Aquapolis too, and you have methods of letting players gear as many jobs as they're willing to commit time to the game.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Tbh, I'd just prefer alternate gear acquisition methods overall. I don't like tomes, I don't like time-gated currency ESPECIALLY considering that players wanting to gear multiple jobs before the gear becomes devalued is a current trend in this game. Diadem tried this with random drops, but there were two snags I think: a.) Diadem itself was horribly boring and unfun to play, and b.) the ilevel range on the gear that dropped moved it from patently useless to BiS, and to me that's not a healthy gear distribution module. In fact, I often wonder how Diadem would have been received if gear drops were LESS frequent, but they were guaranteed to be useful if not for your main, then for an alt at least (ie ilevel 200-210, instead of this weird 150-210 range we got).

Either way, I think gear distribution in this game is kinda borked overall. It's a method that functionally makes very little sense. Log in and do your daily "chores" so you can buy gear (or log in weekly to hit your weekly raid slot machine roulette and hope for some usable gear), or just...not log in and wait until the inevitable catch-up method is added, because hey, it's not like you could have reasonably geared more than maybe 2 jobs in the time that you were away anyway!

It doesn't help that I personally find the "catch-up" method of acquiring gear FAR, FAR more interesting than the tomestone grind (do 24-man raid for gear 10 ilevel lower than top, get item to upgrade tome gear to max ilevel, also get tomes to BUY tome gear from 24-man raid, etc). I like the 24-man raids, for the most part. I wish they were introduced during the tomestone cycle, tbh. Do expert to get tomestone gear OR do 24-man to get gear slightly less good, OR do both so you can actually feasibly gear up more than one job at a time! (Pipe dream, I know.) Heck, add in some reasonably good but rare gear drops from Aquapolis too, and you have methods of letting players gear as many jobs as they're willing to commit time to the game.

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You've captured the essence of my frustration with this game quite aptly.