[Suggestion] Icon/tooltip indicating if an item can be bought from a vendor

On my server, I've seen several people on the marketboard listing NPC vendor items upwards 3x the original price - and a lot of unknowing players falling for it. This is particularly painful to see with the housing items being sold by merchants in the residential districts (Spirits Collection, Pile of Tomes, Scattered Documents, etc.).

What I think would help players make more informed marketboard purchases is to add an icon or a tooltip indicating that said item can be bought from an NPC. It doesn't necessarily have to say where you can buy the item, although of course it would be much better if it did.

EDIT:
After some discussion, it seems to make more sense to include vendor location and the price. This will help players become more aware of vendor items, discourage players from reselling vendor items at a ridiculous markup, and it makes the research process faster for people who like look information up online.

A more detailed implementation would be to have different stacking icons/tooltips for the different ways (desynth, airships, dungeon drop, etc.) that an item can be obtained for quick reference.

It would be nice if this could be implemented but fooling people or rather use peoples' laziness to your benefit might not be a bad idea after all... I've done this many times as many times i've wasted my gil on stuff that could be bought from vendors half or less price.

This case rests mostly on the crafters' side where you need many different materials. Imagine if you have to travel to, let's say, 4 different regions to buy stuff rather than waste 10k-20k more to buy them instantly. Many people are just too lazy to do this, simple as that. However, for "expensive" stuff there are certain ffxiv sites that mention where you can buy and for how much.
I don't think its just a waste of time to do a bit of research before you buy after all...

For items that can be bought through say beast tribes, I can understand charging a premium. But for items that you can buy from the vendor without any extra unlocks or whatnot, selling an item you can normally buy for say 6,000g and charging 20,000g in the marketboard... it seems pretty exploitative to me. Like I said in the first post, I've seen this happen in my server mostly to housing items - which can be easily mistaken for craftable items. It's pretty sad. :(

Speaking of helpful websites, I really like how gamerescape in particular presents the information. They use icons right next to the item name which you can hover on to tell you whether you can get an item via a vendor, through airships, etc. If we had a similar feature in the game, that would be super helpful. FFXIV does have the Lodestone where the vendors for each item are listed; the developers could program the icon/tooltip to pull the information from there.

I don't know, but whenever I see posts like this it sounds to me like people are upset that someone is making lots of money with little work. :P I think it’s buyer’s responsibility to do research before buying stuff. If they can’t be bothered to do research, then I’m not going to be bothered about overcharging them. :)

I always check google to see if some materials can be acquired more easily.

Honestly, some materials sound so rare but are sold for dirt cheap by NPC.

My first-hand experience: I was trying to acquire a teleporter for my new house. I checked my crafting log, no dice. I then checked MB and realized how expensive it is. I finally remembered to Google. And surprise, it is dirt cheap from GC (if you have the right rank).

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Originally Posted by CayaLuna

I don't know, but whenever I see posts like this it sounds to me like people are upset that someone is making lots of money with little work. :P I think it’s buyer’s responsibility to do research before buying stuff. If they can’t be bothered to do research, then I’m not going to be bothered about overcharging them. :)

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That players get screwed over in the markeboard for not doing research outside of
the game? Sounds like the game can do better informing players of where to get the stuff they need. I'm sure even if they added an icon saying that an item is from a vendor some players are still bound to miss it, but at least it's there.

What do you think about my suggestion to add the icon/tooltip? Wouldn't you like to see at a glance if the marketboard item you're looking at can be bought from a vendor?

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Originally Posted by nranola

That players get screwed over in the markeboard for not doing research outside of
the game? Sounds like the game can do better informing players of where to get the stuff they need. I'm sure even if they added an icon saying that an item is from a vendor some players are still bound to miss it, but at least it's there.

What do you think about my suggestion to add the icon/tooltip? Wouldn't you like to see at a glance if the marketboard item you're looking at can be bought from a vendor?

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What about items you can get from leves, or gathering, or desynth, or dungeon drops? There are so many ways of getting items, should SE start listing them all? After all, if an item can be gathered for free than I get ‘screwed over’ even when I buy it from vendor.

Sorry, but I’d rather SE spent time and money on more important things than adding icons for people who are too lazy to google. :p

Do you know this: Libra Eorzea
This is the official app from SE for smartphones and such devices, IT IS PART OF THE GAME.
They give you the possibility to get all info you need to find most items ingame with their own app for the game and it doesn't cost anything.

Or just use xivdb, the best database for this game.

In the end it boils down to "I have a item, you want it and how much are you willing to do or pay for it?".
If you are not willing to do anything (google search, Libra, XIVDB, dungeon farms, gathering, crafting, leveling, ...) you have to pay the price the salesman set or you just don't get it at all.

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Originally Posted by CayaLuna

What about items you can get from leves, or gathering, or desynth, or dungeon drops? There are so many ways of getting items, should SE start listing them all?

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Do you mean if you get an item from a dungeon/desynth/etc. that's also an item sold by an NPC? They can have multiple icons up, similar to how Gamerescape does it. I don't see how that can be problematic.

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After all, if an item can be gathered for free than I get ‘screwed over’ even when I buy it from vendor.

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Assuming that the icons were implemented and that you saw them on the item, you don't get screwed over by other players on the marketboard listing that item up for 10x vendor price because now you're made more aware that this item can be bought from the vendor - or you can gather it yourself, if you choose. And then, if the vendor information isn't provided in the game, those people who are too lazy to google will hopefully start making the habit of looking up this information online to compare prices and such.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

Do you know this: Libra Eorzea
This is the official app from SE for smartphones and such devices, IT IS PART OF THE GAME.
They give you the possibility to get all info you need to find most items ingame with their own app for the game and it doesn't cost anything.

Or just use xivdb, the best database for this game.

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I know of Libra Eorzea, and I also know of the several other resources sites out there. I use them regularly. But clearly a lot of players don't know - or don't bother - to look up online whether an item can be bought from a vendor or not, because that's the only reason I can see as to why a person would buy, in the particular example I keep citing, an easily accessible 6,000g item for 20,000~30,000g on the marketboard. The suggestion I'm making is to have icons/tooltips in place for each item to give players a heads up as to whether an item can be bought from a vendor or not. This can be expanded to multiple icons/tooltips if the item can be obtained in multiple ways, similar to how Gamerescape does it.

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In the end it boils down to "I have a item, you want it and how much are you willing to do or pay for it?".
If you are not willing to do anything (google search, Libra, XIVDB, dungeon farms, gathering, crafting, leveling, ...) you have to pay the price the salesman set or you just don't get it at all.

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Then, as the developer, help the players develop healthier buying habits, right? Have things in place within the game that will help players become more informed buyers.

I can't find listing a 6,000g item for 20,000g on the marketboard as morally sound despite that "I list it they buy it" reasoning. 14,000g is not chump change for players who have limited resources.

Yes, exactly, gamerescape already does that. Like I said, there’s no need to waste SE time to add icons for lazy people.

I care about every single gil so I always do research. It is not enough for me to just know that I can buy the item from vendor. I need to know if I can craft it, get it as a drop, get it from leve, etc. If I can craft it I need to know what I materials I need. If I can get it as a drop, I need to know which NPC drops the item. So unless SE can find a way to fit all this info on a tooltip, the icon saying item can be bought from vendor is useless for people who care about what price they are paying.

And if people don’t care about what price they are paying, then why should SE waste time and money?

Having as much information provided from within the game would be ideal, yeah, and it would be great if SE can make that happen. You're right about the prices; if they're going to implement an icon feature, it would make more sense to include the vendor price and vendor location as well. It's going to be helpful for crafters and it better addresses the concerns I have with players relisting vendor items on the marketboard.

Sigh… Let’s ask SE to spend days designing, developing, localising, testing, etc. because some people can’t be bothered to spend less than a minute to google something.

It’s buyer’s responsibility to do research before buying. It’s common sense!

Caya, there's only several dozen high value items which people like to buy from vendors and resell on the market board at a high markup. SE could isolate the items down to just a few key vendors, like furniture vendors, and using a spreadsheet for items by vendor, tack on text stating that the item is sold by the vendor at vendor location for price in gil by referring to column with price.

Collectively, the amount of time people have spent googling what vendor sells what has likely added up to thousands of hours. Tabbing out is more time-consuming and more immersion-breaking than a little sentence at the end of item description popups.

Also, your mom is common sense.

There's no more point discussing this with you people so stuck in your heads about how something can't be done. Editing first post to add some more points if SE ever comes across this thread, and then I'm out.

Agreed. however I tend to work outside the markets, want a piece of gear? Sure, boost me 10 HQ pieste skins and its yours! I find that this is more of a fair-trade with people, especially noobs, who as we know, are basically broke :)

As they say - Caveat Emptor, which means buyer beware. This has been the market policy since the dawn of history and it still makes sense in a virtual world market like FFXIV.

D

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Originally Posted by nranola

....I can't find listing a 6,000g item for 20,000g on the marketboard as morally sound despite that "I list it they buy it" reasoning. 14,000g is not chump change for players who have limited resources.

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Above example not good! ^^;
For crafting 5-10min, you earn much more than above,
so when someone would spent 5-10mins check the MB, go to buy and list for sell and eventually sold, just only earn 14000G! ^^;

Actually a lot of ppl very rich, they like one-stop shopping and they feel good to save their time as time > gil.
Moreover, some ppl even like one-click shopping, they will pay more for saving some clicks,
i.e. buying one time $25000 for 2pc (one listing) instead of 2 times $10000 (2 listings) each.

So my suggestion is, let it be. IMO anything listing more than vendor price is expansive.

Really please Google Just google this is also how people start to make money if a person is either 2 lazy or can not be bothered to take 2 minutes to check google, if an item is sold via an npc. Then whatever pay the price no tool tip is needed IMO I mean cloud acorns seeds were sold at 50k each I spent 15 mins and found out the vendor is in the residential district like really. Each seed was 500 gil.

A lot of new players who want to start making gil I offer this advice to buy npc items people are 2 lazy to port and buy from an npc not mega gil but it's a starting point.

Iron ore stack total is 2389 MB price on Fag is 25k it may not seem like a lot to me and trust me it's not but to a level 10 starting out that's a lot of gil with all the teleports and stuff needed to level.

I have no problem with someone buying from an NPC and reselling on the MB. Anyone can do it. Too lazy to do your homework? That's on you.

When I started 2 1/2 years ago, I was like most newbs, wondering how to make gil. It wasn't long till I realized I could buy from an NPC and sell for a profit on the MB. I remember how thrilled I was the first time I bought orange juice for something like 5 gil and sold a stack for 100 each. I continued this practice with a variety of items till my gatherers, and a few crafters, were able to start making me money.

I haven't done this in quite some time, but as a Trade Mentor, I often see Sprouts on the Novice Network inquiring how can they make some money. A few times I have partied up with one of them and explained this strategy. I'll have them shop at an NPC and tell me an item and it's amount, while I stand at the MB and check it's availability, pricing and history. I'll tell them how many to buy and what to sell them for. It's a winning practice for a beginner. One of these Sprouts had 39k gil when we met. Within a day he had made 140k. Overnight. Not bad for a beginner. You won't get rich this way, but it's a great way to start.

As has been said, do your homework. Gamerescape is a great resource for finding all ways to acquire items, from drops to crafting to NPC sales to gathering. With the advent of the Novice Network, all a Sprout need do is ask, and if your server is anything like mine, they'll readily get all the answers they need, probably with some offers of freebies.

Working as Intended in my opinion.

(This post is not directed to anyone in particular.)

Item tooltips already say how much an NPC vendor will pay for an item. Just add beside it how much they'd charge for the item if it can be vendor purchased anywhere.

As for details like where you can purchase it, whether you can gather it, whether you can craft it, what mobs drop it, what quests or leves reward it, and so on, that's far too much to put in a tooltip. Even just where you can purchase the vendor sold items can be a long list for common ones. But perhaps an extension of the Search function could bring up this type of information.

It would be better than outside lookups, not only because it doesn't require people to leave the game every time they want to buy something, but because it could incorporate game data. For instance, if a Beast Tribe sells it, only show us that source if we have the reputation to be able to purchase it there. Same if the GC sells it, but only if we meet the right rank. If it's craftable, do we have the corresponding DoH class to the necessary level, etc. (Or perhaps list it anyway, but with a red "unavailable" icon next to it if we lack the reputation/rank/level or whatever.)

But in general, the vendor's selling price in the tooltip is more important than a full availability search. The tooltip would be enough to tell players whether it's worth looking up more specifics.

...I don't see anything wrong with charging a premium for the convenience of being able to buy an item on the marketboard instead of having to hoof it all the way to the vendor to buy it yourself, nor do I see how this is in any way different from charging a premium for gatherable items. If you don't like the prices the item is listed at, then run to the vendor yourself and pay less. If you're too lazy to do that, and have gil to burn, then I did you a favor by posting the item on the MB so you didn't have to move more than a foot from your usual crafting spot to get it.

That applies just as much, if not more, than if you're too lazy to look the item up or ask your FC if and where it might be purchased. You're unwilling to expend the bare minimum of effort (especially considering that there's no way to play the game that doesn't also offer an internet browser that can be easily be swapped to for a moment), so you pay for that.

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Originally Posted by Lukha

especially considering that there's no way to play the game that doesn't also offer an internet browser that can be easily be swapped to for a moment

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Yes there is. Everyone playing on PS3 or PS4 needs a secondary device to look stuff up. Nether console has a browser that's actually usable. I don't always have my laptop with me, and rarely want to go to the other room and boot up the computer just to look up an item I want to buy. If I happen to have my iPod on me, I may look stuff up in its Libra Eorzea app, but if I left it upstairs, I'm not likely to leave the game and go get it just to look up every item I buy.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Yes there is. Everyone playing on PS3 or PS4 needs a secondary device to look stuff up. Nether console has a browser that's actually usable. I don't always have my laptop with me, and rarely want to go to the other room and boot up the computer just to look up an item I want to buy. If I happen to have my iPod on me, I may look stuff up in its Libra Eorzea app, but if I left it upstairs, I'm not likely to leave the game and go get it just to look up every item I buy.

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The browsers may not be awesome but they are perfectly functional for the relatively untaxing task of googling an item.

Even if they weren't, you just proved my original point; whatever the reason for it, if you decline to check whether the item can be purchased at a vendor then you're making the decision to pay the convenience fee I charge for providing you the ability to simply obtain it from the marketboard. Nothing is preventing you from doing so, so obviously it wasn't that important to you. It's no different than the person who chooses to buy a mat they could easily go gather for free.

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Originally Posted by nranola

EDIT:
After some discussion, it seems to make more sense to include vendor location and the price. This will help players become more aware of vendor items, discourage players from reselling vendor items at a ridiculous markup, and it makes the research process faster for people who like look information up online.

A more detailed implementation would be to have different stacking icons/tooltips for the different ways (desynth, airships, dungeon drop, etc.) that an item can be obtained for quick reference.

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The problem here is you\\'d end up with so many icons it\\'d just clutter the when interface.

As for adding the vendor information that\\'d be crazy. Some items maybe not a problem but other items. Especially common ones like gysal greens. How many vendors would be in that list you can buy those things literally everywhere. How big would that items tool tip be to include every vendor.

Would you have icons for items obtainable via tombstones gc seals allied seals, scrips etc etc. Some of those crafting mats sell for 100k and but you can buy em for 20 tombstones of lore. Or 1000 gc seals. Or brute leaches stack of them is 150k or you can grab em with 99 blue gatherers scrips.

It\\'s fine as it is really. The information on what vendors sell is not really hidden there\\'s even the official libra eorzea that already contains most of this information and is widely available.

Also I will quite often buy things on the market board at a higher price just for the sake of convenience. If I need rock salt or something I can probably buy 99 of the market board for 4 or 5k Gil. If I go to a vendor probably 1k Gil. Plus the cost of the teleport and the extra time. Might take me 5 minutes longer and only save me 2000 Gil. Not effecient

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Originally Posted by Dzian

How big would that items tool tip be to include every vendor.

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It doesn't need to take up extra tooltip space. On the item tooltip, just the gil price would be enough, and that can share the same line where it already shows the price vendors will pay for an item.

As for where to get it, we already have search features both for items we have and recipes we know. This would just be a third search option (more like the item search), for where an item can be bought/traded. Just like the chat box lists every slot where we or any of our retainers have a given item when we search for it, it can list every vendor who sells or trades an item (and who would sell/trade with us). Sure, if it's a long list, you might have to maximize the chat box to view it all, but there's really no lack of space there.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Also I will quite often buy things on the market board at a higher price just for the sake of convenience. If I need rock salt or something I can probably buy 99 of the market board for 4 or 5k Gil. If I go to a vendor probably 1k Gil. Plus the cost of the teleport and the extra time. Might take me 5 minutes longer and only save me 2000 Gil. Not effecient

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Choosing to pay a bit extra from the market board for convenience sake is fine. Paying a thousand times what something's worth because it looked as though that were your only option isn't so fine.

Honestly, it seems the only reason for anyone to argue against this is because they like taking advantage of people in the later case, those who aren't choosing convenience, but simply being duped. After all, being given the info wouldn't prevent any sales from those who like the MB's convenience. It would only impact sales from those who were stuck with it as the only choice they could find. I don't think enabling sellers who are deliberately trying to scam their buyers is a valid reason to object to this suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Paying a thousand times what something's worth because it looked as though that were your only option isn't so fine.

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Buying something from Market Board already implies that there is at least one other way of getting the item. So I don’t see how anyone could ever think that MB is the only option to get the item.

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Originally Posted by CayaLuna

Buying something from Market Board already implies that there is at least one other way of getting the item. So I don’t see how anyone could ever think that MB is the only option to get the item.

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But the MB could still be their only source if they haven't leveled crafters and gatherers, for instance, or if they aren't at a level to run all the hardest content, or if they haven't gotten lucky with a rare drop, or if they don't have access to a garden, and so on. There's all kinds of reasons why someone may not have had a chance to get something on their own that might make it worth buying from the Market Board. (The market board wouldn't even exist if that weren't the case.)

A person who's duped into paying a huge sum for something to avoid having to level up multiple classes or farm lots of dungeon runs just hoping to get it, when in fact their other option is to go pay an NPC just a few gil, has been duped. And sellers who are deliberately targeting such players are scam artists.

If somebody bought an orchestrion roll for a million gil when it came out, because they thought that must be a really rare dungeon drop or from content they hadn't unlocked, since it's one they hadn't even seen yet in all the runs they'd done, and they'd already bought all the vendor ones a long time ago, when in fact it's one that had been recently released and is sold for 5k by talking to Maisenta, do you think that player chose the convenience of being allowed to pay a million gil for it instead? Or do you think the player who bought it for 5k and listed it for a million managed to scam them?

Every time new readily available items come out, they go up on the MB at these sort of scam artist prices, and a few of them sell that way. Scam artists don't need to be protected. When listing something above NPC price is genuinely about convenience, then letting people know the NPC price won't stop those sales. The only sales that would be impacted are ones that should never have happened in the first place. (Or i should say, the only sales that would be negatively affected, since an item that genuinely is hard to come by might sell for more if that fact were made more readily apparent.)

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

But the MB could still be their only source if they haven't leveled crafters and gatherers, for instance, or if they aren't at a level to run all the hardest content, or if they haven't gotten lucky with a rare drop, or if they don't have access to a garden, and so on. There's all kinds of reasons why someone may not have had a chance to get something on their own that might make it worth buying from the Market Board. (The market board wouldn't even exist if that weren't the case.)

A person who's duped into paying a huge sum for something to avoid having to level up multiple classes or farm lots of dungeon runs just hoping to get it, when in fact their other option is to go pay an NPC just a few gil, has been duped. And sellers who are deliberately targeting such players are scam artists.

If somebody bought an orchestrion roll for a million gil when it came out, because they thought that must be a really rare dungeon drop or from content they hadn't unlocked, since it's one they hadn't even seen yet in all the runs they'd done, and they'd already bought all the vendor ones a long time ago, when in fact it's one that had been recently released and is sold for 5k by talking to Maisenta, do you think that player chose the convenience of being allowed to pay a million gil for it instead? Or do you think the player who bought it for 5k and listed it for a million managed to scam them?

Every time new readily available items come out, they go up on the MB at these sort of scam artist prices, and a few of them sell that way. Scam artists don't need to be protected. When listing something above NPC price is genuinely about convenience, then letting people know the NPC price won't stop those sales. The only sales that would be impacted are ones that should never have happened in the first place. (Or i should say, the only sales that would be negatively affected, since an item that genuinely is hard to come by might sell for more if that fact were made more readily apparent.)

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1. I think you are vastly underestimating the intelligence of an average FFXIV player.

2. The purpose of Market Board is for people to make profit. No one goes there to sell things at a loss. It’s not a Charity Board. Don’t like overpaying for stuff, don’t use it. Every item on MB can be obtained by playing the game.

3. It’s buyer’s responsibility to research an item before buying. Google it, ask about it in FC or LS. It’s not a rocket science. Most people know how to do it in real life (comparing prices online, looking for discounts, etc.) so it’s not like they are unable to do it while playing.

Anyways, I feel like this discussion has run its course and I have better things to do. Bye!

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Originally Posted by CayaLuna

1. I think you are vastly underestimating the intelligence of an average FFXIV player.

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I'm pointing out something that happens regularly every time new items are added or new ways of obtaining them are added. You'll see easily obtainable stuff listed at completely outrageous prices, and if you check the history you'll see that some pieces actually sell that way.

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Originally Posted by CayaLuna

2. The purpose of Market Board is for people to make profit.

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Which you can still do perfectly well even if your ability to scam them is taken away. There are plenty of people who will buy stuff because they want to. You don't have to trick anyone into it. Information is perfectly harmless to legitimate trades.

Just like legitimate businesses are perfectly able to make a good profit in the real world, you can do so in-game as well. You don't have to resort to scams as the only way to make money.

well that was an entertaining read.

From a crafter's perspective : did the research, found the latest niche and its profitable till someone else comes in and undercut's or comes in with a massive stack of the same item offered and regulates the avg price. Generally you wont see them resale new NPC items, less the new item now sells for more faster then what they are already selling .. not effective for them to oversell and make a profit of 20k per stack per day when a end game item would net more...or they need to the slot to sell less quantity faster.

From a new guy perspective : great way to make an extra buck, low risk and decent return without having to constantly monitor when you have someone help you out in novice network on what products currently move. also a decent way to re-invest and get mats faster to level crafting. If nothing else have the gil you need for repairs/teleports and NPC gear upgrades while leveling.

From the casual perspective : notice's the price inflation and unable or willing to save a buck by looking it up , no remorse. However lets say they don't have the craft/gathers leveled and are low on money with no beast tribes done and no access to housing for mats as well. Here is a legit need for help... best option get into an FC that is willing to help you... hands down they can help you move easier past this hump and be more self sufficient, and not need to rely on crazy weekend prices. And yes if you don't already know prices adjust on Many items over the course of a week to take advantage of well the casual players.

problem truly lies in an unregulated free market..which is why you see items on the MB for 80% or higher over the cost the craftier paid, little less for HQ as you run the real risk of loosing mats on failed attempts. Anything penta melded...depending on rng can cost a huge amount as well.